RE: Acceptance of submission

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WhiplashSmile -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/10/2007 10:29:39 PM)
I just read a post on another thread that I feel is related to this one. It's where a sub/slave by the username of adanaydi posted this.. quote: A girl is embarrassed to admit she dressed down a potential Master just this morning... she had been talking to him a couple of weeks with the email tag thing... and he just seemed sooooo hung up on physical appearances, implying that this one would be left at home to cook and clean while he went out with others who were more physically attractive than she.... Grrrrrrrrrrs... she told him that if he wished an empty headed "trophy" girl, he best look someplace else, for the creator granted her intelligence, not the jet setting looks, and she is grateful she has what she has. she also said a few choice words about his own potential appearance. <giggles> she's never seen a pic of him. ref: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=945649 My heart sank, that a Master was willing to accept her submission but not her appearence. This is another aspect of "Acceptance of Submission" or more like "Acceptance of the submissive". I'm going to add another comment, that I know of one who felt rather scared by a former Master over her breast size. I'm not talking about bedroom scene play humiliation. I am talking about the real deal form of humiliation. The kind that scares a submissive over something they are powerless to control. Something that makes a submissive question when their Dom/me will drop then for another with larger breast... The kind of crap that paves way for insecurity and is a foundation towards building instabilitity in a relationship. Why would anybody accept somebody they know they would reject for their appearence in a relationship? It's like saying I accept you as my slave only as long as you wear this paper bag over your head, be thankful I accepted you at all. Wack Wack Wack...

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 12:32:59 AM)
---Fast Reply, I am not sure if you have considered this POV or not. I have talked with many subby types who profess to want to submit, and in their mind's eye, they are genuine. They want to submit to everything, from sexuality to the mundane - except they do not want to submit their hearts or minds. I imagine the same holds true for some domly types as well. I think some people, perhaps most, are seriously afraid of letting go that far. Fear of uncovering something within themselves, fear of being rejected, or other fears that prevent them from opening up to anyone. I, myself, have some of these fears; I am willing to overcome them, but I can see how some may not want to bother. Sometimes, Acceptance, is accepting oneself and dealing with one's internal quirks.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 7:27:31 AM)
I think most people have brought up great points here. It's a common misconception that because a person is a dom means that they automatically know how to accept and process someone else's submission in a positive way. It's really not- no more than a slave knows how to automatically serve and surrender and all that in the way that their master needs/desires. As well, communication styles can vary such that a sub might feel as rejection what a dom only intends to be a rebuking or just giving information.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 7:40:36 AM)
The ability for the Dom and the sub to connect on a high level means they have to both have similar abilities to see, feel and process things. The Dom needs to understand her way of looking at the world. Of course the two-way street applies here. I do believe this awareness is what makes strong connections possible. If you don’t have similar abilities, you will never get certain things or relate on higher levels. That is why it is so important to find someone similar to yourself intellectually if you want things to grow and avoid conflicts because you see things on different levels. It is possible to have short term relationships with those not exactly with it, but I’m convinced it won’t work over time if you want to go beyond just straight sensation play, flogging or whatever.

onestandingstill -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 8:15:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hawkwolf7 quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile I'm wanting to peel back the layers to this Onion a little more here... I don't know if this is a deeper level in the onion or not, but I do have a story to share... I recently got involved with a submissive woman, and I was surprised to discover that I felt uncomfortable about some of her submissive behavior. Upon reflection, I realized that I didn't have any problems in our S&M relationship. But there were elements of the D/s relationship that were giving me twinges of discomfort. Digging deeper, I realized that it wasn't the submission, but the "service" expression of her submission: doing my laundry, cleaning my house, stuff like that, that were causing me problems. After looking a little deeper, I see two possible sources for the problem... both inside me. First, I was brought up to be very independent. I know how to cook, clean, do laundry, all of that stuff, and must admit to feeling some level of contempt for those who are able but refuse to learn. I have never needed nor desired having someone take care of me. Yet, it gave this woman great joy to take care of me in these ways. How do I resolve that contradiction? Second, I've been struggling with my health for a couple of years now. The net effect is that my self-esteem has taken a fair amount of damage. I cannot help but wonder if there is a part of me that questions whether or not I deserve to be served in this way. Or, maybe, it is some combination of the two? It seems clear to me that being able to accept someones submission, and their expression of their submission requires fairly strong self-esteem. Similar to the truism that says "You must love yourself before you can truly love someone else." You have to know in your heart that you deserve their acts of submission. It also seems clear to me that in order to accept her service, I will need to overcome my social conditioning that says it isn't okay for anyone to take care of me. I find it ironic that I have been able to overcome my conditioning that says "Don't hit girls", but I haven't been able to overcome the conditioning that says "Don't let girls take care of you". Ultimately, what I have learned about acceptance of submission is that the barriers some of us throw up are no more and no less than our personal issues raising their ugly heads again... just in a different context. I hope this helped some. HawkWolf Hello Hawk Wolf, Thank you very much for laying this out for me to read. The man I last submitted to also could not utilize me being service oriented. I appreciate not only did you discuss you noticed this is something a sub really wants but also why you think it's not comfortable for you. suzanne

dawntreader -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 8:42:34 AM)
Whip, Really thought provoking thread here! i myself have evolved in this process since i first discovered my submissive nature. Everything i read in the beginning described submission as a gift but as time went by , i read many interesting ideas on why submission was not a gift so i straddle the issue these days. What you said about "acceptance of another's submission really resonated with me... i like to look at it more in a yin/yang context in that by a Dominate accepting my submission and me accepting his/her dominance we are creating balance for each other...that we are actually creating something together that is bigger than what we can achieve alone. Dominance and submission to me are not really gifts we give to each other; they are what makes us compatible in my opinion. j

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 1:04:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz ---Fast Reply, I am not sure if you have considered this POV or not. I have talked with many subby types who profess to want to submit, and in their mind's eye, they are genuine. They want to submit to everything, from sexuality to the mundane - except they do not want to submit their hearts or minds. I know all too well about this one, where the heart and mind are hard limits. To some affection is the most sadistic experience for them. Also, the refuse to open up about what they think and feel. There were a number of these I encountered on this site. quote: I imagine the same holds true for some domly types as well. From things others have shared with me, many domly types avoid it like the plauge. quote: I think some people, perhaps most, are seriously afraid of letting go that far. Fear of uncovering something within themselves, fear of being rejected, or other fears that prevent them from opening up to anyone. I, myself, have some of these fears; I am willing to overcome them, but I can see how some may not want to bother. Sometimes, Acceptance, is accepting oneself and dealing with one's internal quirks. I think you nailed this down good with your words. I myself have my own quirks, some of which I've been coming to terms with now. Seems like a never ending process at times.

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 3:43:15 PM)
I wanted to thank you for a great topic. I'm happy to see it posted and wanted to let you know that while I don't have a concise reply the thought process it has created internally is a welcomed thing at the moment.

mstrjx -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 3:46:37 PM)
I would have to say, truthfully, that the essence of the OP I am fairly guilty of. For quite some time now I had come to the realization, and had expressed to a few people over the past several years that I am 'easy to please, but difficult to serve'. Why is that? It doesn't make much sense. The truth is, my needs are a little skewed from how I perceive others. I can be doggedly independant. In a D/s relationship, I know what 'I' want from it, and it really needn't be, for instance, service. I don't need you to clean for me, you might not do it as well as I do, or as I would like. I don't need you to cook for me, my eating habits are such that I can easily handle this as well. I've yet to find a partner who could handle laundry half as well as I can, and it's such a pain to teach if you're not somewhat adept at it to begin with. I give pretty decent (or better) backrubs, but don't really get off on the efforts of another (not sure why - could have been the individuals involved). If your interests do not lie in service, that's fine for the most part. The obvious interest I have in the relationship is the benefit of the sub/slave, and what that indirectly derives to me. My personal interest in a partner is somewhat more arcane, and I don't always speak directly what those needs are. I 'arrange' for my needs to be covered in the course of the dynamic. But is this, ultimately, fair? It would seem all I really care about is acquiring 'Whipping Post Barbie'. (Now there's an image for you.) Since a lot of my relationships have tended to be one-sided, having someone that can stand around and look pretty until it's time to play sounds like a pretty good idea. She doesn't need to be completely selfless (although a certain level of 'vacuous' can be awfully sexy), but in that sort of environment I hope she doesn't get bored. Taking tongue slightly back out of my cheek, to answer my own question the answer is 'No, that's not really fair at all'. There might be s-types out there who not only 'desire' to have their service skills utilized and appreciated, but who can also keep up their half of a relationship (strange, but true!). It would behoove me at that point to actually 'be' patient, and allow things to happen around me. Are there other things I can be doing than tidying up after myself? Sure. Need years just to catch up anyway. And at the end of the service, showing my appreciation with affection and/or play benefits everyone. I just need to relax and allow myself to 'feel', rather than 'manage'. Probably a whole lot more pleasant that way. Jeff

gypsygrl -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 4:41:27 PM)
In general, I've found that guys don't really want to be worshipped, served, doted on and submitted to. They don't want to be followed around like a puppy dog, nor do they want someone glancing at them every 5 minutes to find out if something's ok or not. In general, as a submissive, I find the best thing I can in a D/s interaction is not submit. Following directions is ok, but submitting isn't. Go figure.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 4:41:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross ...As well, communication styles can vary such that a sub might feel as rejection what a dom only intends to be a rebuking or just giving information. From experience I know about this one all too well. Where I have said things for the improvement of the relationship or to help them better understand. I know I have been making improvements in my own communication style over the years, however the submissives style is a big factor as well. I totally hate trying to be a mind reader or having somebody attempt to read my mind. Also some people only hear what they want to hear. Some can't take words at face value they can't help but add or read more into what is being said. I find it very difficult to deal with. Important that the sub/slave is willing to share their heart and mind at times.

hereyesruponyou -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 5:24:23 PM)
Great topic. It's really making me think. I'm trying to relate it to the messages I've gotten from subs who tell me the reason i am hesitant to accept their submission is because i have not met a "real" submissive yet. That they really do get all they need from putting me first. But i haven't observed this myself. It seems against human nature to never need for yourself. Maybe there are those million to one relationships where a Dom/me and sub have exactly opposite needs, but how often is that really likely. I need to think about this some more.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 5:29:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz ---Fast Reply, I am not sure if you have considered this POV or not. I have talked with many subby types who profess to want to submit, and in their mind's eye, they are genuine. They want to submit to everything, from sexuality to the mundane - except they do not want to submit their hearts or minds. I imagine the same holds true for some domly types as well. I think some people, perhaps most, are seriously afraid of letting go that far. Fear of uncovering something within themselves, fear of being rejected, or other fears that prevent them from opening up to anyone. I, myself, have some of these fears; I am willing to overcome them, but I can see how some may not want to bother. Sometimes, Acceptance, is accepting oneself and dealing with one's internal quirks. Interesting P. O. V.. I was discussing this with a fellow dominant at lunch today. She noted that what has bothered her is all the qualifiers she has seen being applied...when I asked her what she meant, she stated something similar to what you've said: "They want to submit...or say they do. That means that if I accept their submission, they accept my domination. But then, they begin wanting to question orders or why I do something in a particular way or have them do something in a particular way. I don't mind talking about things and I give their input serious consideration...but if the only way they can give me their hearts and minds is if I make them operate according to their manual...forget it." I want the heart and mind...I want it willingly...and I want them to understand what that means. Acceptance of my domination does not mean that I do not recognize your mind. My acceptance of your submission does not mean that I will run roughshod over you now. It means what it means...don't discuss and negotiate and then, once agreed to, start finding loopholes.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 5:50:30 PM)
quote: ...I want the heart and mind...I want it willingly...and I want them to understand what that means. Acceptance of my domination does not mean that I do not recognize your mind. My acceptance of your submission does not mean that I will run roughshod over you now. It means what it means...don't discuss and negotiate and then, once agreed to, start finding loopholes. Not loop hole as much as conflicts. Where the submissive is doing their best to please you. Here's an example. I had one that used to buy me small trinkets and gifts of appreciation all the time. Now, I only have so much room on top of my dresser place to keep all these things, along with cards. While I appreciated these things, I found it to be a growing inconvience in time. Where to stick all these things? What to do with it all? Start packing it away into boxes? Throw things out? What? She was doing this to please me, however it slowly started to displease me at the same time. Now, what to do! I found myself requesting that she ease up on the gifts a little. Amazing the reaction you get from a submissive that is trying hard to please, to discover that they were slowly starting to displease you. In a sense I was becoming less "Accepting" of these Gifts. Sub/slave tend to place a strong connection between their actions and pleasing. I ended up putting my foot down, and amazing as it sounds they submissive felt less valued by it. She was all the time still thinking about buying me things, she was having a hard time, trying to figure out when it was acceptable or not to bestow more gifts upon me. She started to second guess if I would be "accepting" or displeased with this. This is not about Loop holes, this is about issue that arise in the middle of a relationship. Now, I suppose in retrospect... if I had to do this all over again. I would simply start pulling out boxes and in time shoving things into them. You'd be amazed though the reaction of a submissive, if you try to give away, toss out or sell off Gifts they have bought you! It's like a dagger into their Heart.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 5:58:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile quote: ...I want the heart and mind...I want it willingly...and I want them to understand what that means. Acceptance of my domination does not mean that I do not recognize your mind. My acceptance of your submission does not mean that I will run roughshod over you now. It means what it means...don't discuss and negotiate and then, once agreed to, start finding loopholes. Not loop hole as much as conflicts. Where the submissive is doing their best to please you. Here's an example. I had one that used to buy me small trinkets and gifts of appreciation all the time. Now, I only have so much room on top of my dresser place to keep all these things, along with cards. While I appreciated these things, I found it to be a growing inconvience in time. Where to stick all these things? What to do with it all? Start packing it away into boxes? Throw things out? What? She was doing this to please me, however it slowly started to displease me at the same time. Now, what to do! I found myself requesting that she ease up on the gifts a little. Amazing the reaction you get from a submissive that is trying hard to please, to discover that they were slowly starting to displease you. In a sense I was becoming less "Accepting" of these Gifts. Sub/slave tend to place a strong connection between their actions and pleasing. I ended up putting my foot down, and amazing as it sounds they submissive felt less valued by it. She was all the time still thinking about buying me things, she was having a hard time, trying to figure out when it was acceptable or not to bestow more gifts upon me. She started to second guess if I would be "accepting" or displeased with this. This is not about Loop holes, this is about issue that arise in the middle of a relationship. Now, I suppose in retrospect... if I had to do this all over again. I would simply start pulling out boxes and in time shoving things into them. You'd be amazed though the reaction of a submissive, if you try to give away, toss out or sell off Gifts they have bought you! It's like a dagger into their Heart. In one way, I get what you are saying. But if at a certain point you have told them that you appreciate it but that they need to back off a bit because you don't have room/don't want all this ........."stuff"/ can think of better things for her to spend her money on...and she ends up heartbroken, is she heartbroken because you were not pleased...or because if you were pleased, then how can you turn down her gesture? So don't...direct her gesture to showing you appreciation in other ways. (After all, isn't guidance part of the deal). If she is still heartbroken, then she is not doing her part to accept your domination in that she doesn't want to compromise, she wants HER way on this. At that point, who then ...even if it is one point...is doing the dominating and not doing the accepting?

opensoul -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 6:14:01 PM)
Thank you for this thread. As I read it I thought of my new submission to my Master and looked into what I wanted ! I wanted to finally be myself ,to give to someone ,who understood and who accepted me as his submissive slave ,to be what He wanted and to free myself from the many years of self-doubt and want for what I was told I should not want .being accepted for who I was and who I had been trying to hide for years was and is a gift from him to me. He as stated he knows me and accepts all of me even the parts I want to forget or feel bad about. In this world Bdsm or Vanilla being told you are what I want just as you are now and what I know is inside you is something all humans wish for!!!

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 6:17:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant In one way, I get what you are saying. But if at a certain point you have told them that you appreciate it but that they need to back off a bit because you don't have room/don't want all this ........."stuff"/ can think of better things for her to spend her money on...and she ends up heartbroken, is she heartbroken because you were not pleased...or because if you were pleased, then how can you turn down her gesture? So don't...direct her gesture to showing you appreciation in other ways. (After all, isn't guidance part of the deal). If she is still heartbroken, then she is not doing her part to accept your domination in that she doesn't want to compromise, she wants HER way on this. At that point, who then ...even if it is one point...is doing the dominating and not doing the accepting? Exactly! I did just this as well. That there were better ways for her to spend her money (ouch, she was wanting to spend it on me) and I tried to direct her towards other ways to please me. The thing is she had a strong connection in her mind about buying was a means of expressing love, she grew up this way. Had some long deep conversations about this with her. She had a very difficult time, not thinking about me while shopping at the stores. This was some form of conditioned pattern behavior that was not easy for her to control. Hence why, I found myself getting overloaded with many things. It was not a normal human behavior pattern. It was something deep in her Mental Makeup I was dealing with. She was not trying to dominate me one bit. She found it extremely difficult to excercise self control on this though. Most of her family is the same way, buying things for others equates to Love, type of thing. Not as simple as you make it sound. Now, should I have been accepting of this as being part of her, or go into deep brain level reprogramming. She was more sensitive to this than most. I have ended up tossing out things before in other relationships, not a big issue. However some sub/slaves deal with major self esteem issues and brain processes that are different from us Dom types.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 6:27:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant In one way, I get what you are saying. But if at a certain point you have told them that you appreciate it but that they need to back off a bit because you don't have room/don't want all this ........."stuff"/ can think of better things for her to spend her money on...and she ends up heartbroken, is she heartbroken because you were not pleased...or because if you were pleased, then how can you turn down her gesture? So don't...direct her gesture to showing you appreciation in other ways. (After all, isn't guidance part of the deal). If she is still heartbroken, then she is not doing her part to accept your domination in that she doesn't want to compromise, she wants HER way on this. At that point, who then ...even if it is one point...is doing the dominating and not doing the accepting? Exactly! I did just this as well. That there were better ways for her to spend her money (ouch, she was wanting to spend it on me) and I tried to direct her towards other ways to please me. The thing is she had a strong connection in her mind about buying was a means of expressing love, she grew up this way. Had some long deep conversations about this with her. She had a very difficult time, not thinking about me while shopping at the stores. This was some form of conditioned pattern behavior that was not easy for her to control. Hence why, I found myself getting overloaded with many things. It was not a normal human behavior pattern. It was something deep in her Mental Makeup I was dealing with. She was not trying to dominate me one bit. She found it extremely difficult to excercise self control on this though. Most of her family is the same way, buying things for others equates to Love, type of thing. Not as simple as you make it sound. Now, should I have been accepting of this as being part of her, or go into deep brain level reprogramming. She was more sensitive to this than most. I have ended up tossing out things before in other relationships, not a big issue. However some sub/slaves deal with major self esteem issues and brain processes that are different from us Dom types. O.K....In her case, it was not. It was due to underlying things. But are not most things due to underlying needs and wants and desires and learned behavior? And isn't doing something...even if it is learned behavior and ingrained to all kinds of twisty-turn-roads inside her mind and soul...when you know it is no longer working for the one you are doing it for who has explained to you why it doesn't work and is attempting to teach you other ways at that point, a means of control? A means of having it her way, even under the guise of love and devotion when the dominant does not want it...is a form, in MOO, of at least subtle domination of the situation.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 6:49:08 PM)
quote: O.K....In her case, it was not. It was due to underlying things. But are not most things due to underlying needs and wants and desires and learned behavior? And isn't doing something...even if it is learned behavior and ingrained to all kinds of twisty-turn-roads inside her mind and soul...when you know it is no longer working for the one you are doing it for who has explained to you why it doesn't work and is attempting to teach you other ways at that point, a means of control? A means of having it her way, even under the guise of love and devotion when the dominant does not want it...is a form, in MOO, of at least subtle domination of the situation. In her case she did stop this behavior, however not the mindset behind it. She would go shopping and get frustrated at herself for thinking about buying me gifts. Trying to get her into a well balanced mode was difficult. She went from one extreme to the other. She did not want to displease me any further, and she was getting upset with herself for even thinking about buying me something. She would get mad at herself for thinking about it. She even confessed about picking things up and then putting them back. She realized the points I made. However, finding a balance a bitch. I had never gone through this before. To the point of putting a limit on Gifts. I ended up telling her to only buy me a couple things a month. Buy me things of greater value instead of a lot of cheaper things. She still was fighting herself over this. Like I said this was not simple. There's a Domme that I know, she recently was overloaded with a lot of shoes. An Amazing Gesture of Tribute. I was making jokes with her about having to knock out walls and do some closet remodeling. Some submissives that are woeing for your affections can go overboard with gifts as well. I think it's some sick joke that a higher power plays on us at times. She was trying to get a grip about how to deal with all the shoes! I was laughing my ass off, because I've been there before being overloaded or showered in a sea of gifts. You know the submissive meant well, just that they got carried away. Oh the fun and joys of life.

Mustardseed -> RE: Acceptance of submission (4/11/2007 8:36:53 PM)
When first discussing deepening our relationship to a more formal D/S structure, I found myself immediately alarmed by certain images and stories and conversations that had shaped my perception of the "standard" D/S relationship. I started to panic, was seriously considering rejecting the idea, asked Daddy a lot about his motives and only thought to ask him what he pictured the relationship being long after I'd had my initial tizzies. I think that there's a connection here. I think that many people have a set picture of what they want, or what they think that they're supposed to have, when viewing any relationship. Since D/S relationships are so loaded in fantasy, fiction and romantic notions, it seems that "I'd like to collar you" should be the very start of weeks worth of conversation about expectations, preferences and practicalities. I think that realizing that submitting to a specific person is not the same as submitting to an ideal or a character from a favorite fiction is crucial. Just because an idea makes me wet doesn't mean that Daddy is going to be interested in it. Just because I have X-desire and Y-dominant, there's no guarantee that the two are going to mesh. And in an ideal word, this hypothetical me would have figured this out during the negotiation process. It's often hard to realize that what's normal for us, what we've grown up with or the structure that allows the world to make sense, isn't transitive. If the other person isn't into this specific ... thing, at best we need to compromise and at worst we need to choose between the security of our particular thing and the person who is about as important to us. Having a pretty good bead on our patterns, our compulsions, our ways probably goes a long ways to helping us realize if compatibility really exists with someone. "Oh, and I buy little gifts for people I care about every time I go out." "That's sweet, but would unfortunately drive me binky-bonkers. I don't do well with small items. I'd much prefer it if you'd work on your drawing. Perhaps you could put that money towards art supplies, and hand me portraits you've done so I can keep a collection of your progress?" Or whatever would be applicable to the people involved. It's probably easier to accept submission when what that submission is built upon has already been agreed upon up front.

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