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Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 4:34:59 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		i am a high school teacher and our school is currently debating whether to switch to a positive discipline system. Now as slave I have lived under discipline regimes that have worked for me, and some that haven’t.  Obviously each couple has their own dynamic and therefore their own discipline regime, just as any school would. Usually however individual regimes can be seen to fit under the category of either positive or negative discipline.
 
Positive Discipline
The natural behaviour of participants is generally good, rules are in place to guide rather than restrict and give opportunities for participants to demonstrate their natural good behaviour. Praise and recognition is constantly given to reinforce the existing good behaviour. Behaviour not in line with the rules is first treated by depriving the participant of the praise they would normally receive, a second offence is treated with a verbal caution which outlines the choices the participant can make about their behaviour, the third offence is actually punished. As soon as the participant returns to the good behaviour praise is returned and no more is said of the rule break. Psychologically the participant feels that they are a “good” person who is “well behaved” and sees that behaviour appreciated and acknowledged and therefore fights to maintain themselves in that positive image.
 
Negative Discipline
Natural behaviour of participants is “bad”, rules are in place to maintain order and prevent chaos. Rules are kept to avoid punishment. Adherence to the rules are expected and therefore not praised unless exceptional behaviour in demonstrated. Misbehaviour is punished from the first offence in an increasing scale of severity. Return to good behaviour is accompanied by a reminder of the lesson learned and future misbehaviour causes prior offences to be brought back up. Participant is seen to have “blotted copy book” and has to “earn back” a clean slate. Psychologically participant feels that they are bad in themselves and need to constantly strive to achieve and maintain goodness. Good behaviour is seen as the norm and they are somehow not the norm. Good behaviour is seen as something to struggle for.
 
So ,,, the point of this thread…. Open to Aall – would really like to hear what Eeveryone from all walks thinks of this.
Which system to you think you use in your relationship?
Which do you think is better?
sub/slaves .. which do you think would work best for you? Which do you think is fairest?
Masters/Mistresses/Dom/mes… which do You use? Do You think that one goes against Your self image as a Dominant?
Would the type of system change if the sub was new or experienced? would positive be better for training but negative for life partner? Or the reverse?
 
i cant promise to be replying to post today as am back to work, but i promise  will when i have the opportunity to, and thank Yyou in advance
 
*s*

< Message edited by softness -- 4/12/2007 4:45:12 AM >

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 5:10:13 AM   
Elorin


Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		In my relationships in the past as a Domme, and in my relationship with M, there is a blend of the two systems with primary focus on the positive system. New activities and training behaviors are treated with constant praise. Once the behavior is established, it is treated as expected, with comments only made upon failure to meet the behavior. However, first violation is treated with expression of disappointment, not just removal of praise. And in all cases, once punishment is completed, the violation is not referred to again.

~E

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 5:15:30 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		thankyou  Elorin .. i think that a blend of the two will be most common *s*

be well *s*


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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 5:20:44 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		There was a school principal at my kids' school who instructed the staff to "catch a kid being good"  and they were armed with award ribbons for things like helping someone on the playground or picking up a piece of trash or any other small but desireable behavior.  When i lived in San Diego and watched whales being trained it's obvious that punishment will never work but rewards for small successes lead to greater success.  People are not whales and high schoolers are more sophisticated than elementary schoolers but having clear, defined rules and clear defined rewards and consequences applied with fairness and equality seem to work especially when the rewards are attractive.  i remember my own biologicals coming home with a list of rules and there were a series of increasingly harsh consequences and the only "reward" was listed as "positive note sent to parent" to which most high school kids would see as lame.

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 5:27:44 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		I'm curious... if the violation is not referred to again then how would you handle repeat offenses of the same violation?

At some point you would have to mention that this infraction has happened before & that a more severe repercussion would be in order because it is a repeating behavior.


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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 5:31:40 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		well ... not having experience of postive model in Ds ... i fall back on my teaching experience of it .. we would remind them of this at the 2nd and 3rd stages .. outlining firstly that previously they have made x or y choice and it had z result ..when calculating the 3rd level punishment .. prior offence of same rule break is taken into account

does that answer Your question .. am sorry if i am being unclear at all

< Message edited by softness -- 4/12/2007 5:32:08 AM >

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 5:35:46 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

There was a school principal at my kids' school who instructed the staff to "catch a kid being good"  and they were armed with award ribbons for things like helping someone on the playground or picking up a piece of trash or any other small but desireable behavior.  When i lived in San Diego and watched whales being trained it's obvious that punishment will never work but rewards for small successes lead to greater success.  People are not whales and high schoolers are more sophisticated than elementary schoolers but having clear, defined rules and clear defined rewards and consequences applied with fairness and equality seem to work especially when the rewards are attractive.  i remember my own biologicals coming home with a list of rules and there were a series of increasingly harsh consequences and the only "reward" was listed as "positive note sent to parent" to which most high school kids would see as lame.


agrees ,,, i work in a very deprived school .. yelling at the kids or sanctioning them has little impact because they are beaten abused etc at home often ,,, which is why the reward system is more effective ... if pain and humilation is part of their normal life it simply is ineffective as a punishment .. they see the punishment as just in line with normal life ... as i would imagine many sub/slaves may do in their Ds relationship ... i find that using certain punishments, that may also occur in some ways in play .. blurs the lines for me, and makes me interact with them less well in play
just MO

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 6:17:58 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Positive Behavior Support has a TON of research behind it showing the benefits of such a system. To paraphrase Richard Lavoie, "punish a child for doing something wrong and you can be reasonably assured he won't do that again - WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING. Reward a child for doing something right and you can be reasonably assured he'll do that again EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT." (Richard Lavoie is a recognized expert in the education of those with learning disabilities. His views of discipline work across the educational spectrum from those in general education to those receiving special education services.)

Both my Master and I have significant experience working with positive behavior supports in our careers. While I don't work for the institution he does, he'd be my boss if I did. Both of us have had significant training in the use of those systems, both in school and as professional development functions.

In our D/s relationship, negative sanctions have no place. There is no corporal punishment. There is no silent treatment. We do not live our lives based on the concept of "trauma builds character" although we know many who do. What we get for these efforts is a significant lack of fear as well as a dedication to doing what's right - all of the time. There is no time when I act in a certain way because he's not there and act in another way when he is.

We both know and understand the inviolate rules of this relationship. I submit. It's pretty simple. When I choose not to submit, then it isn't a D/s relationship anymore and if I should choose to do this out of his sight, then who am I really hurting? He won't know, but I will. He will continue to dominate me, but I will have ceased to submit. Eventually, it'll show up in our relationship and since both of us are in this for the D/s, it will probably be the end of our relationship.

This isn't held as a threat over my head any more than it is over his. Both of us are in this together. He has certain ways in which he wants me to act and instead of punishing me for not doing so, he teaches and talks to me about what went wrong and what he wants in the future. He sets expectations very high, but not so high that I can't reach them. He rewards for when things are done above and beyond what he expects of me. He talks out what I didn't or couldn't do.

Positive behavior supports work extraordinarily well in the classroom and as on a school-wide basis, can change the entire educational environment of the school. Positive behavior supports work well in families (and indeed, the positive behavior supports of a school in fact mirror what parents used to do at home). Positive behavior supports work well in all relationships, be they vanilla or more alternative, like D/s.

In the end, I guess it all depends on what the dominant wants. If he wants his submissive to be obedient most of the time while giving him reasons to "punish" her, then negative sanctions might work better. If consistent obedience without coercion, then positive behavior supports seem (at least to us) to work better.

He doesn't want me doing this because he's the enforcer. He wants me being obedient because it's something that comes from inside me - it's something I need to do and want to do for him. Positive behavior supports accomplish this very well.

juliet


< Message edited by julietsierra -- 4/12/2007 6:23:26 AM >

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 6:58:44 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		thankyou juliet, thats a fantastic reply, many thnks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive andswer
*s*


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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:00:12 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

There was a school principal at my kids' school who instructed the staff to "catch a kid being good"  and they were armed with award ribbons for things like helping someone on the playground or picking up a piece of trash or any other small but desireable behavior.  When i lived in San Diego and watched whales being trained it's obvious that punishment will never work but rewards for small successes lead to greater success.  People are not whales and high schoolers are more sophisticated than elementary schoolers but having clear, defined rules and clear defined rewards and consequences applied with fairness and equality seem to work especially when the rewards are attractive.  i remember my own biologicals coming home with a list of rules and there were a series of increasingly harsh consequences and the only "reward" was listed as "positive note sent to parent" to which most high school kids would see as lame.


agrees ,,, i work in a very deprived school .. yelling at the kids or sanctioning them has little impact because they are beaten abused etc at home often ,,, which is why the reward system is more effective ... if pain and humilation is part of their normal life it simply is ineffective as a punishment .. they see the punishment as just in line with normal life ... as i would imagine many sub/slaves may do in their Ds relationship ... i find that using certain punishments, that may also occur in some ways in play .. blurs the lines for me, and makes me interact with them less well in play
just MO


Yeah, this is kind of the line of thinking I was taking.  There's a reason I'm a masochist and it runs deep.  Negative sanctions simply reinforce all my default assumptions about the structure of reality, the universe and my place in it, encouraging a regressive fatalism.  It takes me back to a time/space where I had no agency and the "struggle to be good" seems overwhelming and I become very compliant.  If I cant be good, I can either be bad or do nothing and I usually choose to do nothing hense my compliance.  In the best case scenario, at some point I rebel in an attempt to recover my agency.  Within this kind of dynamic, I move between passive obedience and active rebellion.  So, I avoid a punative D/s dynamic.

I don't have much experience with positive systems within a D/s dynamic, but I would worry my tendency to do an internal conversion such that I would interpret it in negativistic terms.




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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:07:13 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		there is a blend of the two in my relationship, leaning a bit more heavily toward the side of negative discipline. i'm not "constantly" praised or being told how wonderful and obedient i am, but i'm not constantly made to feel like a bad apple either. one offense/misbehavior/mistake/etc. will warrant a punishment, which means that i'm punished fairly frequently in comparison to other slaves i talk to online. overcooked eggs, punishment. chores not completed in time, punishment. late to get ready, punishment. left the hall light on, punishment. however most punishments are minor, i rarely receive a severe punishment because i've rarely done anything to warrant it.

this system works well for us because i respond well to fear. my fear of punishment is just one more thing that helps to keep me in line. not the ONLY thing, but it's an important piece of the puzzle. also, when the focus is closer to the "negative discipline" side, it prevents a submissive from getting a big head and becoming overly relaxed and comfortable. i get enough positive reinforcement to know that he thinks i'm a good girl, but not so much that i think i don't have much room for growth.

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:08:39 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I don't have much experience with positive systems within a D/s dynamic, but I would worry my tendency to do an internal conversion such that I would interpret it in negativistic terms.



a really good friend of mine has been in a several Ds relationships, her new Owner uses a more positive discipline dynamic where as her previous Owner used more of a negative one... she says that her world of service has totally changed .. she feels now that she skips about almost constantly wearing that "good girl glow" which makes her happier, more contented and therefore a more pleasing slave to her new Owner .. when she compares that to the "worry" and "tension" that she was never quite good enough before she cant believe the change in herself, and feels she cannot have been terribly pleasing as a slave... now this is just the dynamic that works for her and her Owner .. there was nothing wrong with the negative system of her previous Owner ... it just didn't gel with her own internal dialogue and dynamic, it brought her down insteead of suring her up

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:14:24 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

also, when the focus is closer to the "negative discipline" side, it prevents a submissive from getting a big head and becoming overly relaxed and comfortable. i get enough positive reinforcement to know that he thinks i'm a good girl, but not so much that i think i don't have much room for growth.



i think this would probably be a question of the Dom being subtle and reflective with the praise They use ... eg
"Oh My God ... these eggs are amazing, fucking awesome, best eggs I have ever tasted ... here's My credit card .. go buy whatever you want"
would indeed swell the head of a submissive ... lol .... and create an evil prince/cess in no time at all
whereas
a subtle smile of approval, a deep kiss, a touch of "petting", a butt swat ... shows They are pleased Their eggs are good and thankyou for your good service

_____________________________

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:20:51 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

also, when the focus is closer to the "negative discipline" side, it prevents a submissive from getting a big head and becoming overly relaxed and comfortable. i get enough positive reinforcement to know that he thinks i'm a good girl, but not so much that i think i don't have much room for growth.



i think this would probably be a question of the Dom being subtle and reflective with the praise They use ... eg
"Oh My God ... these eggs are amazing, fucking awesome, best eggs I have ever tasted ... here's My credit card .. go buy whatever you want"
would indeed swell the head of a submissive ... lol .... and create an evil prince/cess in no time at all
whereas
a subtle smile of approval, a deep kiss, a touch of "petting", a butt swat ... shows They are pleased Their eggs are good and thankyou for your good service



well hopefully no Dominant would ever take positive reinforcement to that extreme, lol. however even the subtle sort of thing you mentioned, an approving smile, pat on the bum...that's fine from time to time, but for every task completed as expected? in my Master's view that would create the wrong sort of attitude in a slave. His goal is to shape and maintain an attitude of humility and meekness, with a constant undercurrent of nervousness and fear.

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:30:38 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I think they're both fundamentally flawed.  Both presume something about the person in the absence of evidence.  One assumes a person is essentially good, the other essentially bad... without first examining the nature of the person.  That's flawed thinking.  I also don't care for the terms which are at odds with those used in behavioral psychology, but that's a minor point.

My view is this... a bit of both is more effective.  That is you use positive reinforcement to encourage good behavior (i.e. praise), as well as negative reinforcement (i.e. excusing the individual from some unpleasant activity).  You use positive punishment (i.e. writing sentences, spanking, etc.) when the individual does something undesired, or you can use negative punishment (i.e the removal of privileges).  There is also the process of extinction which requires understanding what motivated the undesired behavior, removing whatever is reinforcing that behavior so that the behavior eventually ceases.  The combination of these techniques, I've personally found, is very effective in altering behavior in just about anything... from my cats to people.

Again, what I see wrong with both is even bringing the question of whether the student is "bad" or "good" as a person into it... that is not healthy.  One gives them a negative self image, and the other gives them a false positive.  Instead I'd recommend simply dealing with the individual behaviors.  That is, rather than telling them they are a bad or good person in general, deal with the specific behavior as being "good, desirable, correct" or "bad, wrong, incorrect".  When correcting / disciplining / punishing ALWAYS make clear what they should have done and reinforce that they can do better.  Just punishing someone won't necessarily achieve anything if you don't also make clear what the expected behavior is.  For example, say I have a submissive who makes me dinner, but its badly cooked.  Screaming at her in anger is not going to help, that's just anger, that's not punishment.  Making her recook the meal would be punishment.  But if I don't also point out what was wrong with it, what about her behavior was incorrect, she won't know what to change and will likely repeat the mistake.  When someone knows what they did was wrong / incorrect, but doesn't know what is expected, they get frustrated and give up... and you lose them at that point.

One last flaw about this "positive / negative discipline" system I'll point out.  People already have a self image of themselves, and this applies whether dealing with submissives or students or employees.  If you have someone who already has a negative self image, telling them they are a "good" person will not only be ineffective, it may create additional stress.  People who believe they are bad will continue to believe that until they feel they have done something to earn a better self image.  Likewise, just telling a person with a positive self image they are bad will likely simply be dismissed, because that self believe tends to be stronger.

Nathaniel Brandon wrote this in The Six Pillars of Self Esteem
quote:

If self-esteem entails a basic experience of competence (or efficacy), what is the relationship of that competence to narrower, more localized areas of competence in particular areas?

We build our sense of fundamental efficacy through the mastery of particular forms of efficacy related to the attainment of particular tasks.

Fundamental efficacy cannot be generated in a vacuum, it must be created and expressed through some specific tasks successfully mastered.  It is not that achievements "prove" our worth but rather that the process of achieving is the means by which we develop our effectiveness, our competence at living.  I cannot be efficacious in the abstract without being efficacious about anything in particular.  So, productive work has the potential of being a powerful self-esteem building activity.

In short, none of us is inherently "good" or "bad", we have the potential for both.  What we become, whether we are more one or the other, is demonstrated by our actions.  By what we do, and what we do is our own choice.  The individual has the choice to be "bad" or "good", to do "bad" or to do "good."

_____________________________

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:34:01 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		thast good then as Yyour goal and Yyour dynamic ... Wwe Aall find the balance that suits Uus (well hopefully) has been with People that wanted to nurture the quieter meeker side of me ... but as it was just part of me ... it could never be all of me

point is ... Wwe all have Oour own journeys ...
be well and safe on yours daddysprop247     

_____________________________

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:51:36 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Excellent as usual Padriag.

I'm a fairly materialistic and practical person.  Growing up amongst adults I was always the Perfect Student.  When they gave rewards, I wanted the certificate/medal/plaque/tickets to buy stuff, because to me those were physical expressions that had far more meaning than a teacher who just told me "great job" when I already knew I was doing a great job and the only reason she noticed that day was because she'd had an extra hour of sleep and felt pangs of spending most of her time with the behavior problem kids.

I think one of the fundamental problems in this is that we’re trying to compare a system that exists inherently to teach behavior skills and learning skills, to instill hard facts and processing into fairly young brains- and personal relationships between people who’ve already had all that taken care of.

Something I harp on constantly is how often we talk about punishment around here, how often we seem to just go right to the react to the behavior pattern rather than just TALKING about it like mature adults with good communication skills.

Now, I recognize this is because most adults have horrendous communication skills, a shit load of insecurities, and want to take the easiest route possible towards happiness.  But that doesn’t make it any more productive.

When dealing with people, you tend to get better results when you focus on the positive, when you focus on the underlying causes of the behavior, and when you accept the person for who they are rather than expecting them to change- especially when dealing with adults.


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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 7:52:01 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
"People who believe they are bad will continue to believe that until they feel they have done something to earn a better self image.  Likewise, just telling a person with a positive self image they are bad will likely simply be dismissed, because that self believe tends to be stronger."

with regard to Teaching and Learning techniques ... if nothing else ... the Postive system aims to use and evolve the self image. This is done with a positve self image - IMO the better and healthier way to reagrd yourself - by reinforcing the postive self image and encouraging it as a tool for making good decisions (You see yourself in a positive way, help other people to agree with this evaluation of yourself by demonstrating the positve aspects of your behaviour and personality and reducing and hopefully stopping the neagtive ways your behave and interact) with a neagtive self image the system aims to create an environment where the positive behaviours of someones presonality and behaviour ae praised. I work with children who have frightening neagitve self images, they see them selves as totally worthless, unlovable and useless. Inside the positive system them are surrounded by evidence that they are pleasing and people think highly of the positive behavior and decisions they display.  We use at schooll "the language of choice" - "if you choose to swear at me and speak aggressively then you are choosing for me to think you are an unplesant person. But if you choose to speak calmly and politely then you are choosing for me to want to be with you and to talk with you". By creating an environment where their choices are explicit and the decisions acknowledged with reard or santcion in an open and explicit way we hope to evolve the negative self image into a positive one.

I agree with You wholeheartedly that beahviour is based on decisions made to act in a certain way. The idea behind the positve system is to educate and evolve that decision making process  instead of trying to "nip things in the bud". As a teacher it is easier for me to work with the children who are beahving well because they are choosing that beahviour in a conscious way because its who they want to be. I get little satisfaction and lots of unease from teaching the classes that only behave beacuse they are scared of the concequences of my displeasure in them. i want them to behave well for themselves and the benefits for them ... not for me.

_____________________________

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 8:04:16 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I strongly prefer positive reinforcement over negative but they both have their place.  Putting your girl to bed and making sure the last thing she remembers is that she is your precious little girl is going to over time make those times you tell her she has disapointed you all the more effective.  Sometimes a slap across the face or yanking her head by her hair is also need, sharp, immediate, and over.  Back to being my precious little girl.

While as usual there is some truly excellent advice, there is one sentence from Padriag
that if more people understood, would change many relationships for the better:

quote:

  There is also the process of extinction which requires understanding what motivated the undesired behavior, removing whatever is reinforcing that behavior so that the behavior eventually ceases.

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RE: Positive and Negative Discipline - 4/12/2007 8:06:19 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think one of the fundamental problems in this is that we’re trying to compare a system that exists inherently to teach behavior skills and learning skills, to instill hard facts and processing into fairly young brains- and personal relationships between people who’ve already had all that taken care of.

.
When dealing with people, you tend to get better results when you focus on the positive, when you focus on the underlying causes of the behavior, and when you accept the person for who they are rather than expecting them to change- especially when dealing with adults.



i dont think people graduate from school with the character they will have all their life or with the value system, each relationship i have, sexual, social or career, moves me forward, changes my perceptions and helps me to evolve in my character. IMO opinion we should always be seeking to move our thinking and attitude forwards. With my work with young people i try to point out all the tools, intellectually psychologically and socially, they have in themselves. I hope to get these kids playing around with the tools and experimenting with them supporting them but i would hope never *telling* them the best way to use them .. that is something subjective, i can only advise them on the most appropriate way to use them in the environment they share with me.

IMO opinion anyone who seeks to guide or evolve another persons character, and has made a conscious decision to do that, has a responsibilty to that person to teach and encourage that evolution in a way which ensures the lessons learned do not disappear with the teacher.

your sentiment about accepting the person as they are really fits with mye idea of encouraging positve aspects of existing character.

to return to my questions at the beginning (though paraphrasing slightly lol) which do you think is the more effective model for creating a pleasing envirnonment for Owner and slave, Dominant and submissive? 


EDIT ... sorry ... you had already answered that (apologies *s*)

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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