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RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 10:21:40 PM

Jevousadore

Posts: 57
Joined: 5/17/2006
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And to Shanadair.....

Honestly, not insulted. It was my first emotional reaction, but I can see what lies behind the sentiment you stated and agree with the intent of it. Again, how I feel is who I am and I feel good about it. In my humble opinion, as much as we humans want to believe we are open and available to all emotions and situations, we really want black and white. I am right so therefore you are wrong. In other words....don't move my cheese. And yes, I hate that!

I also find the intelligence, wit, strength and ability to forgive put into these posts truly amazing and inspiring. Many of those on here would be amazing advocates in their area.

(in reply to Shanadair)

Post #: 141

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 10:25:22 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

jevousadore,

the very part of my post you quoted pretty much shows that i don't believe that there's any one formula. i don't believe there is; if there's another part of my posts that led you to believe so, i apologize. i'd be the last person to suggest that.

the only thing i attempted to point out in my posts is that the op's formula is not right for me, and that many of the things he said threw up red flags for me to the point that yes, i disagree with a lot of the things he said and the generalizations he made. i think that a lot of what he's suggesting would be very unhealthy for not only some survivors, but the other people involved in the situation.

it has nothing to do with the fact that there's no one right or only way to deal with it. there are a thousand ways besides my way and his way, and hell, what do i know? his way might even work for some people.

annabelle.

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to Jevousadore)

Post #: 142

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 10:27:23 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevousadore
I do not agree with anyone in any lifestyle to take out their anger, frustration, hurt, any negative feelings on another, especially the one they should be putting above all else, whether Dom or submissive. But, I can relate to the fantasy and desire to do so to someone who has hurt you. The need to strike back. Just as it is normal to feel anger at a loved one who has died for no rational reason, we all react to who we are and what our environment has been and created in us.

i think this part of your post bore repeating...it definitely struck a chord for me. :)

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to Jevousadore)

Post #: 143

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 10:48:12 PM

Jevousadore

Posts: 57
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline

annabelle......

Yes, I can understand why your would have red flags. Again, I did not want anyone to be generalized within a certain behavior expected from victims by victims, and I agree with where you are coming from and the point you are making completely. It's like going to a funeral and not understanding how the loved one left behind can laugh and tell funny stories. It throws us because we want others to react in a way that is comfortable to us, our expectations. For me, it is alien that a victim can truly forgive a rapist, yet I know it happens and find that inspirational, yet it would not be my way, nor do I feel guilty for feeling so.

I believe we are on the same page,just looking at it from different angles, yes?

And I hope don't mind if I steal the below statement for my own use someday......I'd like to put it on a bumper sticker on my car, if I were the type to put a bumper sticker on my car.....laugh. I think it is genius!

*there are a thousand ways besides my way and his way, and hell, what do i know?

jevousadore

< Message edited by Jevousadore -- 4/12/2007 10:49:54 PM >

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 144

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:37:20 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated
by some male at some point in their life.   I don't get
why they seem to have little interest in acting out some
kind of role playing revenge fantasy.   Some say they
are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there
could always be a third party present to prevent that
from happening. I would think that would be theraputic.

The dungeon is not the place for therapy.
These women are very right about the situation
going too far and loosing control. If they
are functional in their present daily lives
why would they want to go back into
that level of torment? What would be
gained? They may well have a complete
mental and emotional breakdown.

Victims of physical and sexual abuse
and rape are best dealt with by professional
psychologists and psychiatrists.

Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal
dramatization.

Most will because they want live in the present,
not in the painful past.

I know if I was a female and a victim of abuse, I know
I would to channel my anger onto some male.

It is because you are neither that you do not understand.
You are projecting your own point of view, a typical male
response to  "fight back!"

This also assumes a more equal level of physical strength
and fighting ability.

Most female victims will attempt to survive and escape
without direct physical confrontation. Physical size and
strength is not usually in their favor.

_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 145

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:54:51 PM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
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Hey Ven. Is this a JP convert or an incarnation?

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Post #: 146

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 12:14:27 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

I know this is probably just feeding into the beast but reading this thread has made me wonder if, perhaps, Whip has some demons he needs to deal with so he has people who are angry at their abusers beat him. That way he can make it seem like he's doing this great service for the victims when really all he's doing is penance for his evil ways. It's just a ploy to get someone to beat on him regularly.

I could be wrong, of course. Hopefully I am. But after having read Whip's threads over the past few months it seems like he enjoys this kind of thing.

Just my thoughts.....

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 147

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 12:17:02 AM

greeneyes1962

Posts: 117
Joined: 9/7/2005
Status: offline

I have found that being able to actively forgive my abuser has helped me significantly in my recovery. I don't feel the need or desire for revenge. Besides, then I would be no better than he, correct?

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 148

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 12:21:38 AM

Leatherbeltpunis

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/24/2007
Status: offline

While I am not exactly to the intent of this thread other than to vent ones emotion and seek a fleeting answer, I do think each person is different and it seems; those who work out their own internal dialog privaately, do the best.

Carl

(in reply to greeneyes1962)

Post #: 149

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 12:31:47 AM

FelinePersuasion

Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline

You assume all women who were abused are angry. I am not angry. I've made peace with the fact I was abused, I went to therapy I did the shit I needed to do. I have no desire to act out pretend violence,

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
. I know if I was a female and a victim
of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some
male.

_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 150

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 4:21:31 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daniL
I do not think there is a problem using certain aspects of your life to work out past problems, and I don't think bdsm is a special case. However, using that as therapy without an educated, licensed professional who understands the psyche of a person who cannot make healthy decisions on their own is ridiculous and dangerous. Yes, I am sure that many of the 'victims' that you have treated have felt relieved immediately afterwards; you know who also probably felt a relief after beating on someone out of anger? Their abusers. You know what probably happened later? Your 'patients' very likely came down from their power high and discovered that they still felt those emotions towards their tormenters.

It is insulting and disgusting for you to advocate something that so many of us do out of love or passion or enjoyment [from both sides-- i'd question how much enjoyment your 'cured victims' get from these episodes, as well as the masochists] as a way to sustain and condone anger and hate. No victim should ever fully forget what their abusers did to them, but it is also true that no victim should ever become their abusers.

I agree with SDFemDom4cuck; great first post. I especially like the part I quoted above. Welcome to the boards.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

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(in reply to daniL)

Post #: 151

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:04:05 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: daniL
I do not think there is a problem using certain aspects of your life to work out past problems, and I don't think bdsm is a special case. However, using that as therapy without an educated, licensed professional who understands the psyche of a person who cannot make healthy decisions on their own is ridiculous and dangerous. Yes, I am sure that many of the 'victims' that you have treated have felt relieved immediately afterwards; you know who also probably felt a relief after beating on someone out of anger? Their abusers. You know what probably happened later? Your 'patients' very likely came down from their power high and discovered that they still felt those emotions towards their tormenters.

It is insulting and disgusting for you to advocate something that so many of us do out of love or passion or enjoyment [from both sides-- i'd question how much enjoyment your 'cured victims' get from these episodes, as well as the masochists] as a way to sustain and condone anger and hate. No victim should ever fully forget what their abusers did to them, but it is also true that no victim should ever become their abusers.

I agree with SDFemDom4cuck; great first post. I especially like the part I quoted above. Welcome to the boards.

Knight's kyra

DITTO

and I encourage daniL to share more thoughts as well... I am looking forward to those insights.

I am particular impressed with the thought that a person in an unhealthy state is often not in a state that will neccessarily allow them to make healthy choices. I think that is what is so challenging for those who happen to be in a healthy state. How do you help such people that are in a unhealthy state.

I would add that a heathly person can be in a unhealthy state. A state is only a moment of time... it would seem that even the healthy person needs to ensure they are in the proper state before they attempt to lead a person in an unhealthy state.

Which brings a more critical question... What is a Healthy State!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 152

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:09:20 AM

CandleInTheWind

Posts: 347
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated
by some male at some point in their life. I don't get
why they seem to have little interest in acting out some
kind of role playing revenge fantasy. Some say they
are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there
could always be a third party present to prevent that
from happening. I would think that would be theraputic.
Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal
dramatization. I know if I was a female and a victim
of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some
male.

for me, the role playing would be more of a changing the ending rather than revenge....i have foudnt hat revenge gives that other individual power and control that they are not deserving of...what i have found helpful int he past...and the Daddy dom I was with at the time discovered this (I do not know if this is his ususal MO but with me we did do some role play where i actually defeated or won so to speak) and it was an empowering victory....
but that is just the humble opinion of this little one
red

_____________________________

It is better to be hated for something that you are
than it is to be loved for something you are not

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 153

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:18:33 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

quote:

Which brings a more critical question... What is a Healthy State!

Greetings KnightofMists

I wonder if this is a question that can adequately be answered. Everyone has their own perception of what healthy would, could, and should be. It will be interesting to see the difference of answers.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 154

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:21:45 AM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Whip, since your declaration this was your last post, you have posted eight more times. This tells me you are enjoying all the attention, ridicule or not. I have known many like you. They love to stir the pot, get everyone riled, just so you can reap the rewards of constant attention.

Folks, the best way to deal with this kind of person is to not play his game. The more you respond to him, the more you play into his hand. Rather than trying to refute him (which will never work), just ignore him. Eventually he will go away.

This really is my last post on this topic.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to CandleInTheWind)

Post #: 155

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:23:56 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

Greetings Master Dominic

You are correct. I did a search for his previous posts and found that this one here was not much different from his other ones.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 156

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:32:23 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Whip, since your declaration this was your last post, you have posted eight more times. This tells me you are enjoying all the attention, ridicule or not.

I agree with you that he is craving attention.... the interesting question is why. I would NOT give him so much credit to consider that he is just playing and stirring the pot so to speak. It seems that his issues go more to his desire to be different. If one takes a closer look at his posts.. he goes out of his way to show how distinct and unique he is to others and society in general. I have to wonder if his motives are more a rebellion to the constant lack of recognition he has recieved in his life. He is an average person... and he has contempt for his own averageness. He goes out of his way.. to move beyond the average label he has been given in society... a label that he himself is stuck in. But, one he is trying to rebel from.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 157

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:36:36 AM

wandersalone

Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline

An intial response to the OP - I haven't read the replies yet.

Personally I don't want a dominant to be my therapist. I think some people fall into the trap of feeling that it is a dominant's role to 'fix' the life of the submissive/slave and people can feel that they are more skilled than they are. I would also be wondering if the dominant is simply getting off on some kind of knight in shining armour/rescuer fantasy however that could be because I am cynical!!!!

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 158

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:41:30 AM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> The main reason why i don't like it is because i will have flashbacks
> and i don't want to relive my past traumatic experiences

These are two very good reasons. I mean it. My suggestion is not for
everyone. They are primarily for people who can't get past their
past experiences, and feel that by reliving it in such aa way where
this time they are in control, they are sometimes able to chase their
demons away.

I'm not a psychiatrist and don't presume to be one. (you might give that a try)
I AM however, someone who used to be in an abusive relationship. I am not a victim. I am a survivor. One of my personal promises to myself is to never fall for this kind of shit again and personally, I think your idea reeks of something not exactly.. sanitary. I also no longer feel the need to protect the sensibilities of the dispensers of this crap.

When people talk about stuff like this, what usually ends up showing is that they are, in effect, continuing to use the person that was abused. Now though, they can confuse the whole issue with lovely little platitudes of "revenge will help you get past this" and "you'll thank me when it's done." All in all though, what we have here is someone finding a sneaky way of getting his ass beat at the further expense of someone's mental health and calling it all good. (And please! Let's just dispense with the "I'm a dominant" crap.It's not working for you today.)

And if that person is further damaged, well then, hey, it just wasn't a good idea for that person huh? After all, as you've said..."it's not for everybody."

Like I said...it reeks of something quite unsanitary - on so many levels it isn't even funny.

juliet

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 159

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/13/2007 6:42:01 AM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline

> enjoyment your 'cured victims'

1. For the tenth time, I never claimed anybody was "cured."
2. I have as much knowledge or more than most licesned therapists.
3. In general psychodrama is an accepted form of therapy.
4. I've noticed all the professionals here referring to survivors
   as "victims." If any of these soi disant professionals really
   knew anything at all they would never call a "survivor" a
   "victim."
> no victim should ever become their abusers.

A survivor does not become their abuser by taking out their
anger on a consenting adult masochist who benefits from
the activity.    How you can compare an adult nonsensually
sexually assaulting a child, and a suvivor releasing her
anger on a consenting masochist, I don't know. I have
stated the numerous siginficant differences between these
two cases over a dozen times. The fact you keep attributing
to me statements I never said, and making analogies that have
no validity demonstrate your response is a viceral and
emotional one, not one rooted in logic or based on your
studies.

Channeling and directing ones negative emotions into
socially acceptable ways is a recognized therapy, and
an accepted coping mechanism.

Suvivors who have anger just can't get over it and move on.
You don't tell someone who is suffering major depression,
just be happy and go on with your life. Emotions have a
life of their own.  Emotions are not always rational. There
is nothing in professional literature that supports your
claim that there is anything wrong with survivors releasing
their anger in the manner I suggested.   There is considerable
literature that supports my claim that psychodrama is and
can be an effective form of therapy.   And releasing anger
in a psychodrama can be healthy and theraputic.

_____________________________

(in reply to Jevousadore)

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