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RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 5:59:43 PM   
SirHunter


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline 		>"I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated by some male at some point in their life.  "

Really? You "KNOW" this? This knowledge could ONLY come from direct intercourse (my aplogies, after reading through your responses and the way in which you phrase things I feel I must explain that in this instance the word "intercourse" means "conversation", perhaps I should have used "discourse" instead but I'm being smug) in which case it wouldn't be "some" females but rather a few "specific" females who were mistreated by "some" specific males. Since you state that you KNOW and are not simply making sweeping generalizations based on inference, which would make you just another idiot spouting a personal agenda, a reader is directed to believe that you are speaking of direct and personal experience in talking with the aforementioned "Some females" and "some males"

>I don't get why they seem to have little interest in acting out some kind of role playing revenge fantasy.  

Odd that you say you "don't get" this and yet in following posts you make assumptions about "why". If the fact that you don't "get" this is an issue and the reader must make that inference since you make a statement about not "getting" it, then why did you not simply ASK these "specific" women? Remember we have established the fact that these had to be specific women because you KNOW them and your initial statement is based on that fact. 

>Some say they are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there could always be a third party present to prevent that from happening. 

If "some" of these specific women make the statement that "they are afraid of losing control and going too far" then who are you, or I or anybody else to judge them for that? And you have judged them or you wouldn't have tried to put the idea of an optional "third party" out there to justify your wanting them to explore it. Any body who has a fear is entitled to their own feelings and perspective on how to handle that fear.

>I would think that would be theraputic.

"I think" denotes your "personal" perspective. The "specific" women apparently do not agree. Isn't that "their" personal perspective? Is not everyone entitled to their own viewpoint?

>Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal dramatization. 

I will not respond to this as it is a personal observation with no stated basis in evidence.

>I know if I was a female and a victim of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some male.

Again this is a personal observation with no stated basis in evidence, but you did step out on a limb here and make a statement that cannot ever be validated, that is unless you are willing and able to fully become a female and be abused. This final statement shows that you are in fact making invalid baseless statements. Since you are in fact NOT an abused female, you undeniably cannot KNOW how you would channel your anger.

If you post again, please try to post something intelligent and not based on conjecture and sweeping generalizations.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 6:04:55 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

   When people can't attack your position,


actually.. attacking your postion is rather simple...  consider your postion is very weak...

You are actually all over the map and are unable to maintain any type of consistency in thought or idea.  You generally poorly communicate your thoughts and when challenged are quick to make twist and turn so you are not pin to a silly thought.  But none the less your pin to more silly thoughts that contributed any thoughts of depth.

Attacking your position is needed since you express an idea that is dangerous and show yourself inadequate for the task.. though you try to protest other wise.   However, since many have already taken to attack your thoughts and ideas with the greatest of easy... I choose to take a more fun approach and address your idiocy.

When you actually show yourself to express thoughts of depth and consideration.. then maybe I would engage you in meaningful dialogue.  However, Like the teacher that communicates to a level that the student will understand the lesson.  I too will lower the depth of thought to the idiocy that you understand anything more is lost to you.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 6:05:31 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

Eventually you will "help" someone right into a psych ward or worse. 


quote:

You are the threat.  You are the danger.  Your irrationality and hysteria are responsible for all kinds of evils.  I know you would not bet money on your claim.  You don't even believe it yourself.  You don't even believe it yourself.  You are just rabid and are trying to find anyway to attack me you can.



I would bet money on it and I do believe it. If anyone is the danger it's you. Amazing how you claim that you won't be posting anymore and yet you do. However with those that logically and succinctly prove you wrong you say nothing. Nor do you admit to being mistaken in your claims. Ok perhaps I called you a complete idiot but I proved my point.

Regardless of how many survivors have told you they feel something you still can't know for sure. You aren't female, you've never been abused or raped and you haven't been in their shoes. Many people have made the exclamation of "Ooooh I could just kill so and so, I'm so mad". They don't mean it literally. Your version of logic is flawed from the beginning.

< Message edited by SDFemDom4cuck -- 4/12/2007 6:07:03 PM >

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 6:06:43 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I actually stole the tagline from another user who correctly attributed it to Einstein, whose every quote I know by heart.  I attribute it to Calvin for irony and comical effect.


Calvin the theologian, Calvin the cartoon kid, or Calvin the designer?


Calvin the cartoon character.   It goes along with his other famous quote:

"People think it's fun to be a super genius.  They don't realize
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots on collarme.com"  --Calvin



_____________________________



(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 6:13:22 PM   
angeldevil


Posts: 503
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: uk
Status: offline 		I think that it is you that has issues, as you seem totally unable to let this subject go. Perhaps you need to look into yourself and your motives....I certainly don't think that it is for the good of others, more for self gratification.

_____________________________

Do these welts make my butt look big?

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 7:31:37 PM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

clipped 

> I would never, ever, channel anger into play. 

And this I suppose makes you a superior peson.
I feel an ego ready to burst at the seems.
  


I think your response to this tells me much about your attitude to BDSM. Anger and play do not go together as even the most inexperienced person will tell you.

Your postings on this thread may well have a beneficial outcome as it will warn others of your very dangerous attitude. 

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 7:42:55 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Dude, neither Fox or nor Tom are masochists.

Tom would never offer himself to me to take any anger on that was physical.

Fox did because he is my slave and the thought it was a good thing to do. It isn't in my case.

As for me, have you not read enough of my posts to know I'm so not a switch in any sense of the word? I thought that was rather bloody obvious about me.

If you have found some women who liked doing this with you, great.

Why not just share that you had this experience?

Your OP read like you were saying that all abused people should feel this way and should do this.

In short, you are attempting to tell us, survivors, what we should feel and do, or at least that is how your posts to this point in this thread are reading to me. That will offend people for the reasons they state.

Why can't you just accept our reasons for us? What makes you want to change our minds?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> Fox isn't the a-holes who abused me, Tom isn't them either, they don't deserve that anger.

Some masochists crave feeling this anger. By not sharing it with them you deprive them
of something they need, just like you may feel the need to be lashed. There is a difference
between real revenge and acting out revenge on someone who craves it. Even though
I keep repeating this, others write as if I am actually advocating actual revenge.

I've been doing this with suvivors for ten years. The few who go through with it are
really thankful, and find it really does help them. They discover by doing this every
so often they are less frustrated, they have better relationships with their significant
other, they have more confidence and experience less hostility. I've talked to countless
survivors. One in every twenty actually go through with it. The others object for
the reasons given here. It is the same reasons verbatim, word for word. They fear
becoming their perp. They fear they might go too far. They just have anger at their
perp. They are past the anger stage. They just can't bring themselves to consciously
direct their anger outward at a masochist, even though they are often violent females
always getting into fights with their partner and with other females. The few who
who actually go through with it find it very helpful, and want to do it again and again.


< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/12/2007 8:07:47 PM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 7:52:17 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

ORIGINAL: mythi
Just because someone wants you to hurt them, doesn't mean you should hurt them.


I can't believe I am hearing this on a bdsm forum by people who want others to hurt
them. You are aware that many female bottoms want their top to make them feel pain?
Are you saying tops are wrong in hurting bottoms? I can't believe my ears.



I think you are missing the point.

Not all our desires come from a healthy place.

If what you want is unhealthy for you at that time, it may be unethical to give it to you.

Take something that isn't directly abuse or BDSM.

Fox has a bad reaction to too many diary products, it can make him very sick. So if he wants to eat and eat and eat ice cream he will hurt himself. I would be an unethical owner if I just kept giving him and giving him ice cream in my opinion.

If he wanted to be hit because he thought that he was a bad person and deserved it, I wouldn't hit him. I'd be reinforcing his negative view of himself if I did. I want him, as his owner, to have a healthy and happy view of himself.

So how does that relate to me as a survivor working anger on someone who asks me too?

*sigh* I wonder about repeating this because I don't think you understanding or willing to accept other's own ethics and limits on these issues.

I'll try again: By doing things in anger, especially such displaced anger that rightly would belong on the abuser, I run the risk of creating a negative connection to my sadism and to my Ds relationship.

My sadism and my Ds relationship are far too valuable for me to risk that. I care more about myself and my slave to risk it.

Others may feel it is worth the risk.

Others should also respect that I do not.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/12/2007 8:08:50 PM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 7:54:42 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

The funny thing is none of the survivors I have done this with were into
bdsm or even knew it existed.


Then how is this related to BDSM again?

I think you are trying to make a connection where it does not necessarily exist.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 8:29:43 PM   
opensoul


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/24/2006
Status: offline 		 I as an abused person do not now or ever want to make anyone feel the way I felt after my rape. If you ever had those feelings you could not, I HOPE , want anyone to relive or use the anger, pain on anyone else.  I maybe new to bdsm ,but I do know that this is NOT the way to work thru that or any abuse. Walk in abuse victims shoes first then try and help. You do not understand what you have not felt and I believe like most who have written you are more of a problem to this lifestyle than anyone else could ever be.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 8:45:36 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		> Your OP read like you were saying that all abused people should feel this way and should do this.

I don't know how you possibly could have come to this conclusion.  Nothing I wrote remotely implied this. 

> In short, you are attempting to tell us, survivors, what we should feel and do,

Never in my life have I ever attempted to tell ***ANYONE*** what they should feel or do. 

>  at least that is how your posts to this point in this thread are reading to me.

I don't know what I wrote that possibly could be construed the way you say.  Which of my words are you getting this from?

> Why can't you just accept our reasons for us?

I do.

>  What makes you want to change our minds?

I don't want to change your mind.  I can't imagine why you would think that.


_____________________________



(in reply to opensoul)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:09:34 PM   
Jevousadore


Posts: 57
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline 		Not to be the Devil's advocate, but I have to say that there are a couple of comments from WhipTheHip from post 105, referencing comments by others, that I agree with, including the following excerpt...

> Some of us are better than to let hate and revenge rule our lives. 

This is very self-righteous of you.  Some survivors can't control
their emotions because they were fragile and their trauma great. 
Finally, I did not advocate true revenge.  But as long as you
can confuse the issue why not do so, right?

> We are stronger and more intelligent than to blame ourselves
> for the shortcomings of our previous spouses/lovers/friends/S.O. 
> We survive and move forward. 

So now you are attacking survivors who are weaker and
less intelligent than you, who find they have trouble surviving,
and have trouble moving forward.   You are a very brave,
courageous person to do this.  You are so much better than
these other less intelligent, weaker survivors.

....I must admit that, though I do not believe it was intentional, I also found the same statements a bit judgemental.  I am considered highly intelligent, college educated with a degree which included a little more than the standard pyschology  and,  though I am not an expert, I have thru working in law enforcement received education in and dealt with many different situations within domestic violence, whether vanilla or other. I am also the survivor of a D/s marriage gone wrong in it's last year. The details are ugly, but I long ago moved on with my life, am very happy and successful, and do not I dwell on that part of my past. And yes, I did have therapy, although it was the support of friends and family that made the difference.

To get to my point.....At no time have I ever forgiven him, although I have forgiven myself for ignoring all the "red flags" waved like banners right in front of me, and for allowing it to continue as long as I did, and for the innocent hurt thru it. 

Call me a bad person, but frankly, I would love to know he was buried six feet under somewhere and unable to inflict himself on other women.  What would stop me is not wanting to go thru life looking over my shoulder, or having my family hurt any further thru my own actions. I lay no claim to the altruistic feeling of "forgive and forget".  Now...do I get angry when I think of it?  Absolutely.  Would I beat him with a bat or physically inflict pain on him?  No.  Would I help him  if someone else was?  No.  Does this mean that hate and revenge rule my life?  Nope, but I would love to see him handed the proverbial "just desserts". And believe it or not but I do still have love for the man who once was. 

I have constant contact with victims of different crimes, newly abused or accustomed to years of it that I can empathize with, and no one reacts the same.  We all deal with trauma differently, which is stating the obvious, I know,  but I believe it depends on how it is allowed or able to affect a victim's future, health, and happiness and that of the ones around them that is important.

No victim should be shamed for feeling hate, anger, or wanting revenge.  I, myself, do not desire or truly understand the need for a slave/submissive to experience true sadism and extreme pain, but it does not make me better or worse......I'm just me. 

And, the "just me" balked at having my intelligence, ethics, and ability to survive deemed as less than another victim because I feel differently.

Again...Devil's advocate......I can see both sides. And, to be honest, it has been my experience that many therapists, psychologists, etc. do have traits and issues that I find disturbing, and a bit of a "God-complex".  Of course, so do some of us victims who feel that whatever happened to us personally somehow makes us superior.....which does not make me sound very good, which means that everything I wrote is my  own delusion.......

hmmm...my first forum remark and I am no doubt already unpopular....darn it.

< Message edited by Jevousadore -- 4/12/2007 9:54:02 PM >

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:29:57 PM   
daniL


Posts: 46
Joined: 4/12/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, I'm new to the board, but it was actually this thread that made it necessary for me to sign up so that i can respond instead of being a lurker. I would like to say that yes, I am young, yes, I am new to the board, and yes, I am aware the WhipTheHip will ignore what I am saying because I am a psych major, hoping to actually get the little piece of paper that he thinks is unimportant.

That said, there is a major flaw in his argument that I do not believe anyone has pointed out yet [if they have, I'm sorry, I read the whole thread in one sitting so I may have missed a sentence or two]. It is not the license that is the important part of the therapist's treatment, but rather the wealth of knowledge that comes from studying within the field. I have always been fairly good at dealing with my peers and helping them with personal problems; this is why I chose to become a psychologist. However, one of the first things you realize when studying psychology is that you are dealing with people who have, at times, damaged pasts and unhealthy states of mind. I do not understand how anyone who has not studied this field as a life career can say that they can help people make the decision to purposely lash out in anger. WhipTheHip, you state that you ask these people if they want to go thorough with your therapy, if they are sure. The problem is, a psychologically damaged person cannot make those decisions on their own. Even an 'undamaged' [and I really hate having to use those words, but I can't think of another one at the moment] person is not always fully aware of what they want, nor is what they want necessarily the healthiest thing for them.

I do not think there is a problem using certain aspects of your life to work out past problems, and I don't think bdsm is a special case. However, using that as therapy without an educated, licensed professional who understands the psyche of a person who cannot make healthy decisions on their own is ridiculous and dangerous. Yes, I am sure that many of the 'victims' that you have treated have felt relieved immediately afterwards; you know who also probably felt a relief after beating on someone out of anger? Their abusers. You know what probably happened later? Your 'patients' very likely came down from their power high and discovered that they still felt those emotions towards their tormenters.

It is insulting and disgusting for you to advocate something that so many of us do out of love or passion or enjoyment [from both sides-- i'd question how much enjoyment your 'cured victims' get from these episodes, as well as the masochists] as a way to sustain and condone anger and hate. No victim should ever fully forget what their abusers did to them, but it is also true that no victim should ever become their abusers.

(in reply to Jevousadore)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:30:48 PM   
basque48


Posts: 10
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ImperatorMaximus

It is not often that I see fit to post here but after taking a gander at the fiorrhea WhipTheHip decided to post (Atrocious grammar and spelling aside), I just can't help myself.

You're obviously searching for justification as to why you're here in the lifestyle.  Stop candy-coating things, and stop with the pseudo-intellectual bullshit.  You're no more a knight-in-shining-armour than the rest of us. 

It is a tragedy that you claim to 'help' these individuals; I believe your alleged activities have done a disservice to those on the receiving end of your 'therapy'; counselling and therapy performed by licensed and trained individuals are a help to mainstream society - what makes any of us any different?  I'm sure there are quite a few therapists and counsellors who are privy to this lifestyle and would be happy to help without being self-serving in doing so.

If you're as omniscient as you would have the unchurched masses believe, you would also be aware that your tagline ('Great spirits... yakkayakka, etc.') was actually attributed to Albert Einstein, not Calvin.






Being a licensed, well educated, *professional*, privy to the life-style, and hardly self serving, thank you for these words.
I could not have said ANY of this better.

This entire concept is offensive and is potentially damaging.



_____________________________

Basque48

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:31:57 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings jevousadore,

i do not attempt to make anyone who -does- deal with a great deal of anger over their abuse feel any less or more of a survivor than me because of that. i don't believe i'm any better of a person because i don't. i just know that that's not how i want to live my life, and perhaps it's overstepping that boundary to say so, but in my experience, -encouraging- those feelings instead of dealing with what's causing them tends to make things worse, not better. that's why i wouldn't necessarily advocate what the op is suggesting for anyone else. the reason i don't choose it for myself is because i just don't have any desire to live in/with anger, or to take it out on the people who attacked me or anyone acting as surrogate for them in any sort of roleplay. i'm not trying to be judgmental; it probably works for some people, and more power to them. if you are angry, regardless of whether this works for you, i hope that you are able to find a place of...whatever you need to be able to have a healthy life after the trauma, whether that's indulging your anger or letting go of it or somewhere in between. however, some of what the op said set off red flags for me, personally, based on the little i know of anger and therapy.

annabelle.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/12/2007 9:32:53 PM >

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to Jevousadore)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:35:06 PM   
DocTSH


Posts: 109
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		The diatribe from the OP and the comments that followed by the same scream of ignorance and a person that seems to suffer from a lack of attention.  Well you got it here, however that wont be the case in the future, at least not from me.

_____________________________

Doc

At times like these, I think of Socrates who said, " I drank what?" -Real Genius

(in reply to Jevousadore)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:35:41 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

Okay, I'm new to the board, but it was actually this thread that made it necessary for me to sign up so that i can respond instead of being a lurker. I would like to say that yes, I am young, yes, I am new to the board, and yes, I am aware the WhipTheHip will ignore what I am saying because I am a psych major, hoping to actually get the little piece of paper that he thinks is unimportant.

That said, there is a major flaw in his argument that I do not believe anyone has pointed out yet [if they have, I'm sorry, I read the whole thread in one sitting so I may have missed a sentence or two]. It is not the license that is the important part of the therapist's treatment, but rather the wealth of knowledge that comes from studying within the field. I have always been fairly good at dealing with my peers and helping them with personal problems; this is why I chose to become a psychologist. However, one of the first things you realize when studying psychology is that you are dealing with people who have, at times, damaged pasts and unhealthy states of mind. I do not understand how anyone who has not studied this field as a life career can say that they can help people make the decision to purposely lash out in anger. WhipTheHip, you state that you ask these people if they want to go thorough with your therapy, if they are sure. The problem is, a psychologically damaged person cannot make those decisions on their own. Even an 'undamaged' [and I really hate having to use those words, but I can't think of another one at the moment] person is not always fully aware of what they want, nor is what they want necessarily the healthiest thing for them.

I do not think there is a problem using certain aspects of your life to work out past problems, and I don't think bdsm is a special case. However, using that as therapy without an educated, licensed professional who understands the psyche of a person who cannot make healthy decisions on their own is ridiculous and dangerous. Yes, I am sure that many of the 'victims' that you have treated have felt relieved immediately afterwards; you know who also probably felt a relief after beating on someone out of anger? Their abusers. You know what probably happened later? Your 'patients' very likely came down from their power high and discovered that they still felt those emotions towards their tormenters.

It is insulting and disgusting for you to advocate something that so many of us do out of love or passion or enjoyment [from both sides-- i'd question how much enjoyment your 'cured victims' get from these episodes, as well as the masochists] as a way to sustain and condone anger and hate. No victim should ever fully forget what their abusers did to them, but it is also true that no victim should ever become their abusers.


Now that was a helluva 1st post daniL. Welcome to the Boards and look forward to hearing alot more from you. Spot on!


_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to daniL)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 9:49:28 PM   
BBBTBW


Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline 		To WhipTheHip

There is nothing safe nor sane about what you are suggesting.  A responsible sadist is not going to take their anger out on a masochist.  There are far too many things that can go wrong. 

If you are desiring to get your ass whupped old fashioned style, just go offend someone on the street that looks like they won't take your shit.  Get your rocks off that way.  You don't have to find someone in the lifestyle to beat the holy hell out of you.

_____________________________

"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means" -- Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 10:11:25 PM   
Shanadair


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jevousadore

Not sure how this works or why I am showing as "vanilla" and no picture.  Can someone advise and not hold it against me......please....:)

Not to be the Devil's advocate, but I have to say that there are a couple of comments from WhipTheHip from post 105, referencing comments by others, that I agree with, including the following excerpt...

> Some of us are better than to let hate and revenge rule our lives. 

This is very self-righteous of you.  Some survivors can't control
their emotions because they were fragile and their trauma great. 
Finally, I did not advocate true revenge.  But as long as you
can confuse the issue why not do so, right?

> We are stronger and more intelligent than to blame ourselves
> for the shortcomings of our previous spouses/lovers/friends/S.O. 
> We survive and move forward. 

So now you are attacking survivors who are weaker and
less intelligent than you, who find they have trouble surviving,
and have trouble moving forward.   You are a very brave,
courageous person to do this.  You are so much better than
these other less intelligent, weaker survivors.

....I have to admit that, though I do not believe it was intentional, I also found the same statements a bit judgemental.  I am considered highly intelligent and,  though I am not an expert, I have thru working in law enforcement dealt with many different situations within domestic violence, whether vanilla or other. I am also the survivor of a D/s marriage gone wrong in the last year. The details are ugly, but I long ago moved on with my life, am very happy and successful, and do not I dwell on that part of my past. And yes, I did have therapy, although it was the support of friends and family that made the difference.

To get to my point.....At no time have I ever forgiven him, although I have forgiven myself for ignoring all the "red flags" waved like banners right in front of me, and for allowing it to continue as long as I did, and for the innocent hurt thru it. 

Call me a bad person, but frankly, I would love to know he was buried six feet under somewhere and unable to inflict himself on other women.  What would stop me is not wanting to go thru life looking over my shoulder, or having my family hurt any further thru my own actions. I lay no claim to the altruistic feeling of "forgive and forget".  Now...do I get angry when I think of it?  Absolutely.  Would I beat him with a bat or physically inflict pain on him?  No.  Would I help him  if someone else was?  No.  Does this mean that hate and revenge rule my life?  Nope, but I would love to see him handed the proverbial "just desserts". And believe it or not but I do still have love for the man who once was. 

I have constant contact with victims of different crimes, newly abused or accustomed to years of it that I can empathize with, and no one reacts the same.  We all deal with trauma differently, which is stating the obvious, I know,  but I believe it depends on how it is allowed or able to affect a victim's future, health, and happiness and that of the ones around them that is important.

No victim should be shamed for feeling hate, anger, or wanting revenge.  I, myself, do not desire or truly understand the need for a slave/submissive to experience true sadism and extreme pain, but it does not make me better or worse......I'm just me. 

And, the "just me" balked at having my intelligence, ethics, and ability to survive deemed as less than another victim because I feel differently.

Again...Devil's advocate......I can see both sides.

hmmm...my first forum remark and I am no doubt already unpopular....darn it.






My sincere apologies to any suvivors I may have offended.

I, in no way intended to sound superior or self-rightious.  I fully understand that there are many other survivors out there and we all have very unique and different feelings.  I never have questioned the intelligence, or claimed to be be more intelligent, than anyone else who has been abused.  We all must find our own way to cope and deal with what we have lived through.  No two people have had the same experiences but we do share one common bond, we lived through it and came out alive.  We have shifted from victims to survivors.

I know I have spent plenty of time dealing with the issues brought up by my past.  I never said anything about forgiving and forgetting.  I will never forget; as for forgivness, well, I tend to have the "not piss on him to put him out if he was on fire" mentality.  Personally, though, I try not to project my past on my current relationships.(I am not saying you do either, this is simply me stating my position)

I responded in the first place because it infuriates me when I see someone, like WhipTheHip or any other know it all, write about things they honestly have not felt.  How can someone speak about what it feels like to be abused if they have never been in that position? How can someone who has never been in an abusive situation say to unleash anger on another person is a way for healing.  He says," Female survivors who try this feel empowered.  It restores a little self-esteem and self-respect. "(that's a direct quote).  These are the types of generalizations and comments I held issue with and to which I responded. 

I believe that something like he is describing should be left to someone trained and skilled at handling the aftermath of abuse and not some guy on collarme who thinks he knows how to help.  Does he really know the possible results of his actions or what to do if things do go terribly wrong?  That is what I find dangerous.

No victim should be made to feel less than anyone else.  If what I wrote came across that way I am deeply sorry.  That was not my intention or goal.  Anyone who survives abuse has already accomplished so much just surviving!!





(in reply to Jevousadore)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 10:12:21 PM   
Jevousadore


Posts: 57
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline 		Hi, annable.....

Yes, I agree with most of your point, but I can also see where we each focus in on the words and statements that trigger our reactions, me included.  For instance, within your reply you stated -

*if you are angry, regardless of whether this works for you, i hope that you are able to find a place of...whatever you need to be able to have a healthy life after the trauma, whether that's indulging your anger or letting go of it or somewhere in between.

Having already stated that I am happy, which is true as I am blessed with so much that is wonderful in my life, it almost feels as though you are questioning my ability to be so as I have not followed the "formula" that seems to be the only acceptable one for a victim to have, if I am understanding the posts correctly.

However, I do understand that interpretation, inflection, and the tone of a post cannot always convey what someone really means.

Thus, what I believe is that you are genuine in your conviction and wish for everyone to find peace within their life and themselves.  This I appreciate....truly....:)

However, I can also see where some of the points made by WhipTheHip have been skewered somewhat, which is understandable given the topic where emotions are obviously so close to the surface.  I do not agree with anyone in any lifestyle to take out their anger, frustration, hurt, any negative feelings on another, especially the one they should be putting above all else, whether Dom or submissive.  But, I can relate to the fantasy and desire to do so to someone who has hurt you.  The need to strike back.  Just as it is normal to feel anger at a loved one who has died for no rational reason, we all react to who we are and what our environment has been and created in us.

Again, I can see both sides, but for some reason that was the statement that I reacted to, as I have seen too many victims feel guilty and responsible even when the law steps in and puts a stop to an incident.  For some reason they will not acknowledge their anger.

And thanks for being gentle.....I appreciate it......:)


(in reply to DocTSH)
Profile   Post #: 140
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