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RE: lie of omission? - 5/14/2009 11:00:31 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		This is certainly a difficult issue. Complete honesty and I do mean about everything is in a number of cases impossible without breaking other agreements, oaths or even classified material i.e. here and in the UK it would be the Official Secrets Act and to breach such may place the partner in danger or at least under the official microscope and the other party a lengthy stint in jail. I can I believe reasonably assume that the OP wasn't referring keeping Patients or Clients confidentially or even the confidentionality of the Confessional (assuming one person is bound by such by their Church (High CofE for example). Even those married to Military Personal are not able to be told some aspects including future movements of mobalization.

Personally, I carry many secrets which I will not discuss, ranging from matters under the Official Secrets Act, Client/Patient Confidentially, Matters pertaining to Lodge or even the details of Clan Initiations. However when I met Neets and knew we were going to make a life together, I sat down with her and explained these areas and that I could not disclose anything to her about them. Same with details of my earlier days in the Military and Paramilitary. I am lucky in that she doesn't ask or even question a few late night phone calls from who she refers to as my scary friends..Other than that we have no secrets. We do talk about everything regarding our lifestyle. In many cases we act as a sounding board for each other. 

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/14/2009 11:22:56 AM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bstardsbitch

They cause the lack of communication in their relationship. They cause the other person to omit telling them things or even to lie to them when they instill fear in the other person
DesFIP, isn't that a bit like saying "you made me do it". Most people lie to save their own skin, most people confess to ease their own guilt. I don't beleive it's fair to say "I didn't lie I just didn't tell you" or as above "you made me do it".
x


I don't think so. If the response to telling him I think I left the milk out when I remember it while on an airplane is to be screamed at for a four day vacation, I won't tell it.

What I do now is be upfront about it. I grilled The Man extensively about his anger and how he handles it. And I told him that if he was just saying the right things but actually wasn't calm and in control, to expect me to lie to him until I was safely away at which point I would send a don't contact me any more email.

I've been in a verbally and emotionally abusive marriage and it was hell. I was damned no matter what I did, so I chose to protect myself. And that included not mentioning the milk.

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 11:31:29 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lies of omission are every bit as much a lie as looking someone in the face and not telling them the truth.

However, the world is a vastly more complicated place than mere platitudes can address.

Sometimes while waiting for the right moment to say something, things happen that make it harder to say a difficult truth. Sometimes the person on the other end makes it hard to tell the truth to. Sometimes you can't find the right words or you find the words but the other person doesn't want to hear them.

Sometimes it is a bit of all of that. One must step back and attempt to look at the larger picture, it isn't always easy, sometimes it is just fucking brutal. I do my best to both tell the truth (most here have been bored with one of my attempts or another) and I do my best to hear it. I am human and my best is far from perfect. Granting that understanding to your partner/s can be a way to bring things closer together.

Lies, whether outright or by omission take two people. While the share of blame may vary, if someone has a hard time telling you something, on some level you haven't made it easy for them to do so, or you are being deaf to what they are trying to tell you. If you can't bring yourself to say it, somehow you lack the courage to say your own truth, or you don't want to risk losing what you have. It is very much a shared endeavor.

Sometimes all you can do is say "fuck," own your own shit and move on. No explanation, no fixing something, no real understanding, just knowing mistakes were made that cannot be undone by either side. You pick up the pieces, you learn your lessons, and you move on.

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 11:52:04 AM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		And of course the people in question who want complete honesty need to  make their partner feel they can give that and feel safe to do that.  Sometimes we may accidentially make our partners feel unsafe about being honest. I can admit to doing that.

I broke a plate one night and when my mom found out she went ballistic yelling at me and telling me I will not use her plates any more do not touch her plates, they're antique and how dare I break one. And no amount of it was an accident, I didn't mean to break it made any difference she was determined to have a hissy fit over a broken plate, never mind if they're truely special to you, you really shouldn't have them in everyday service lol

Not saying in anyway that you don't make it safe to be honest, just relating an experince.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel


My thoughts exactly. If someone breaks something of mine I can get past that with no problem, I know, shit happens. But if someone breaks something of mine and doesn't tell me it happened hoping I won't notice.... that really pisses me of, not so easy to deal with, you know?

Jewel

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 12:38:06 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
Omission is still a lie and lies of any sort are a hard limit for me.  I don't tolerate them in my relationships.  Lying to me is the fastest way to earn a one-way express ticket out of my life.  With extreme prejudice.  I always tell my partners that I would rather hear ugly truth than a pretty lie.  The crap about "sparing feelings" is exactly that -- crap.  It's just a way for the person doing the lying to justify his/her dishonesty and is, in itself, a lie.  There's a difference between lying and employing tact.  It's possible to be honest and still be kind.  I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who think that lying is kinder than telling the truth.


I see this stance as more of a cop out than anything else. Keeping the the omission card up your sleeve as your ace in the hole to be played at your leisure resulting in a kick to the curb.

Even if you exclude these lies of omission where you must be a mind reader to determine what is relevant to you listener... virtually everyone on the planet is not entirely honest all of the time. You don't want someone in your life who lies all the time nor do you want someone in you life who lies about important things. Beyond that all this total honesty stuff is mostly nonsense.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 4:18:51 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		i withhold...i withhold so much i don't even know, or at least, i'm not conscious of doing it at the time. Later, maybe hours, or days, or weeks, or sometimes even years, i will run and rerun an event, a scene, a meeting, an intimacy, an encounter, i will rerun it over in my head. And then a part of me will say what i wanted to say, needed to say, felt i should have said but didn't, run and rerun possible outcomes.
i reckon i have an inbuilt device, a schema, for witholding stuff. As a slave i'm very good, actually exquisite (takes a bow0 so i'm told, at what it is i do. Not much choice or no choice is how i like to consent. So i suppose that witholding in my head, in my thoughts, is one sure place i won't get found out.
Except of course i do. Because when i only say so much, but not all of it, when i don't complete, or stop short in a communication guess what? i get the results of that commuication echoing, rippling, throwing itself right back at my face. i come across as ambiguous, uncaring, ungracious, flippant, haughty, agressive even...i've been told that and i'm learning, still learning that i won't get hurtfully punished for saying what i really mean and feel.
It takes a while to learn this stuff in relationship.


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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 5:51:54 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		  I'll never be 100% honest .....I'll always lie, both lies of omission and any other kind going. That's something I can be pretty certain about. I can live with my lying and I can live with OTHER people lying ...mostly because I EXPECT the odd lie. I can't get worked up about being lied to, out of omission or deliberate lies. People WILL lie for ALL sorts of reasons and I don't take it personally at all. I trust WHAT I can trust about other people .....I accept that there are bits that I may not be able to throw 100% trust into. I TRY not to be late ...... but everyone around me knows that I'll be half hour late , on average , despite my desperate attempts not to be..........lol. My declarations of * I'll be there* are met with a humorous rolling of the eyes. A lie?.....probably. But more that I'm a very scatty individual.....and known and rather loved for it.

They say a liar expects to be lied to.........perhaps that's true. I tend to see it as realistic and understandable. I don't go through life *watching out* for lies........I just enjoy people for what they share with me . If they lie , then they'll restrict our communication to the content of the lie......... and ditto, in reverse. I choose how honest I am depending on who I'm talking to and what point I'm at with them.

All sounds very clinical when typed up ...but I'm actually appreciated for my honesty with people close to me....which might sound odd after the above.

When I read  back, it's the truth (ok, ironically amusing)........it *sounds pretty horrible....maybe it is .....maybe *I* am too. But there it is, anyhow.

agirl

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 5:56:57 PM   
Venalismihi


Posts: 63
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		Lie by omission is only a problem if found out, otherwise it is "ignorance is bliss..."

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 6:02:45 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
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Status: offline 		It's a good thing that Jesus doesn't love me or want me as his sunbeam, really.....he'd be awfully disappointed....lol

agirl

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 8:14:27 PM   
MissJanice2


Posts: 178
Joined: 3/4/2009
Status: offline 		Not telling someone something that will upset them is just the same as telling them a lie. 
Geeze honey, I forgot to tell you that I saw a hot girl and kissed her today.

 
 
Best Wishes,
 
Mistress_Jan
 

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 9:02:01 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Radical honesty is a specific type of honesty practice. It eliminates what the developer, Brad Blanton, PhD, calls "sugar coating" and filtering when delivering honesty....


SylvereApLeanan, thank you for the reply.
-I want it to be about something else (...something that *I* think is reasonable!), but wanting doesn't make it so.

I'm going to read his book sometime, but in the meanwhile it sounds like you know more about it than I do, and I fear that you are probably right.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 5/15/2009 9:03:13 PM >

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 9:08:13 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

It's a good thing that Jesus doesn't love me or want me as his sunbeam, really.....he'd be awfully disappointed....lol



I feel *sure* that Jesus would want you to be his sunbeam!

If there is a Jesus.

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/15/2009 11:33:37 PM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline 		Great betrayals start with small secrets.
j

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 5:12:05 AM   
TickledToDeath


Posts: 126
Joined: 1/26/2008
From: New York
Status: offline 		I Totally agree! A Lie of Omission is still a lie. No gray area. In a relationship, if a partner withholds the truth from a partner it is the intent behind that withholding that makes it the lie regardless if excuse for doing so is to "protect the other partners feelings" or whatever the reason. All relationships, whether personal, sexual, intimate, scene/lifestyle related or just plain friends, there cannot be lies, deceit or dishonesty in any form be it a flat out malicious lie or lies of omission.
Lies are Lies and there is no room for them in any relationship. 

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 5:13:32 AM   
TickledToDeath


Posts: 126
Joined: 1/26/2008
From: New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

Great betrayals start with small secrets.
j


Nice. I like that. Is that YOUR quote or did you see that elsewhere?

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 6:06:10 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissJanice2

Not telling someone something that will upset them is just the same as telling them a lie. 
Geeze honey, I forgot to tell you that I saw a hot girl and kissed her today.

 
 
Best Wishes,
 
Mistress_Jan
 


So if he forgot to put the milk away, and got home ahead of you with a new bottle and didn't tell you he let the open one go off, is that a great betrayal? And what kind of punishment do you normally do for people being less than perfect?

Because I don't buy it.

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RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 7:02:54 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TickledToDeath

All relationships, whether personal, sexual, intimate, scene/lifestyle related or just plain friends, there cannot be lies, deceit or dishonesty in any form be it a flat out malicious lie or lies of omission.
Lies are Lies and there is no room for them in any relationship. 


Interesting to see for some that life is so clearly black and white and human nature so absolute and unconditional.

I'm sorry, but I see things much differently.

You see the truth can be either concrete or abstract, as can reality. I look at a pane of glass attached to a frame mounted in a wall and I see a window, and I'm pretty sure that if I were to start a thread entitled 'Is a pane of glass mounted in a frame set within a wall called a window' no doubt everyone else would agree with this statement. This is a concrete truth, it's there, I can reach out and touch it, photograph it, and so can other people.

However if I were to start another thread titled 'What is love?' or for that matter 'What is the difference between a submissive and a slave?' it's a given that not everybody is going to answer these questions in quite the same way. You see love and enslavement are abstract concepts and so are subject to our own individual perspectives and perception.

Off the top of my head I think there was a reading study done which came up with a fact that first time you only take in about 20-30% of the words you see written somewhere and the rest comes from what you infer and what the writer implies, and similarly as little as 10% of communication comes from the words which come out of your mouth. The rest comes from non-verbal cues, emotional signals, body language, posture, and so on.

Now I think the consensus of agreement is that a lie is something you say or write knowing it to be untrue or false. Okay, so what if you don't know? What if it's something you feel, something you think, or something you believe to be true? And what if that other person doesn't share your perception?

You see everything we think, do and say is shaped by intentions, motivations, reasons, and is further influenced by thoughts, feelings and emotions. The relationship between two people is in itself abstract, serving as a vehicle for communication and a channel for feelings, thoughts, ideas and emotions.

And to me to state that there cannot be any lies, deceit or dishonesty in our relationships would also mean that there also cannot be any doubts, fears, anxieties or insecurities nor any differences of opinion, differences in feeling, emotions or experiences.

In all honesty I don't think that such a relationship is possible between two people.


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RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 9:05:20 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline 		See, to me, never committing a lie of omission would actually be a very radical thing.

I realize I must be interpretting this very differently than most people here, because I sure as hell know that you all are not truthful 100% of the time.

Ergo; lies of omission.

This is what frustrated me on that radical honesty thread: I thought that it would mean not committing lies of omission.

But no, everyone else thought it meant you have to have a non-sensical stream of consciousness dialog going where if you think "platypuss", you must say "platypuss!"

But now, come to find out, it's "lies of omission" (and not committing the same) that everybody can get their head around.

And I'm surprised and alarmed to see that everyone thinks they do this (not committing lies of omission, that is) because I don't know anyone who does this.

I think in fact that this is why there are priests and counselors and the psychiatrist's couch (and comic books) - sacred "safe" zones where the truth can actually be told.

Note; by this, I am not championing lying. I believe that overall, lying is a detriment, and is not preferable.

_____________________________

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- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
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RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 9:19:02 AM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline 		My first Dom used to say that.
I'm not sure where he got it.
j

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: lie of omission? - 5/16/2009 9:34:24 AM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
Omission is still a lie and lies of any sort are a hard limit for me.  I don't tolerate them in my relationships.  Lying to me is the fastest way to earn a one-way express ticket out of my life.  With extreme prejudice.  I always tell my partners that I would rather hear ugly truth than a pretty lie.  The crap about "sparing feelings" is exactly that -- crap.  It's just a way for the person doing the lying to justify his/her dishonesty and is, in itself, a lie.  There's a difference between lying and employing tact.  It's possible to be honest and still be kind.  I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who think that lying is kinder than telling the truth.


I see this stance as more of a cop out than anything else. Keeping the the omission card up your sleeve as your ace in the hole to be played at your leisure resulting in a kick to the curb.

Even if you exclude these lies of omission where you must be a mind reader to determine what is relevant to you listener... virtually everyone on the planet is not entirely honest all of the time. You don't want someone in your life who lies all the time nor do you want someone in you life who lies about important things. Beyond that all this total honesty stuff is mostly nonsense.


And I see this as both a cop out and a lame attempt to legitimize lying. 
 
My fiance has only lied by omission once.  It nearly ended the relationship and took months to recover the trust, but he worked hard and I forgave him.  Now he understands that I'm completely serious -- do not lie to me, even by omission.  He never did it again.  We've been together almost seven years and our wedding is this July.  So don't try to tell me that my policy is a cop out or doesn't work.  Clearly, it works for me, so I call bullshit on your statement.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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