RE: Imperialism (Full Version)

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Griswold -> RE: Imperialism (4/16/2007 4:16:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The ideas presented by Nazi Germany ?
The policies being followed by R Mugabe in Zimbabwe
ditto Saddam Hussein he was the leader in Iraq for those who didnt know. Right little comic he was.



So what exactly is it about these ideas that justify other nations intervening?


Bud...after a looooong time on CM....I have to say, your post is the single most interesting I've ever seen.

(And I have no fucking clue how to answer).




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/16/2007 4:27:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

This is absolute tosh!!!!! The US invaded Iraq to put in place a US friendly government. To say that it will not be subordinate to the US when Iraq's government will depend on the US is laughable.

The privatisation of Iraqi oil is an American inspired move. Should that happen and it appears it will, selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies.

Americans are just about the only people who claim the US isn't imperial. We Brits have been there, seen it and got the Tee shirt. We know what imperialism looks like.


We know what imperialism looks like.

Kinda like good art, huh?  Or is that pornography? [:D]

To say that it will not be subordinate to the US when Iraq's government will depend on the US is laughable.

Please give me your definition of "subordinate" and how it relates to my quote of a "subordinate political department of the United States" as that relates to the normal definition of "imperialism".

 selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies

You want to run the mechanism of how that works by me?

FirmKY

PS. Merc ... I know.  Saying your wrong (or sorry) was never the strong point of "the other side".  [:D]




Dtesmoac -> RE: Imperialism (4/16/2007 5:30:04 PM)


[/quote]
[/quote]

Agreed.

Any examples of impeding sovereignty? Afghanistan harboured forces that launched an attack on the US, were in the process of commiting the cultural destruction of previous civilisations purely on the basis that they were not muslim (buddist Statue Distruction) and allowed legal murder of women..........response of the US / International community was fair, balanced and reasonable. In the early stages this is an example of a good war.............. it has now been f...ed up due to the execution of a bad war.

Hypothetically speaking, say Britain elected a Socialist government for the next 10 years. In year 9, would you be saying people need to change? or would you accept that the majority are better placed to shape Britain than you are? Within the constraints that on the whole neither a Socialist government or a Right wing government are likely to require random murders of parts of the population....(NB shoot to kill policy in the Northern Ireland Conflict would be an interesting but alternative debate at this point) ..... will be elected in the UK. I base this on past voting record, then the view of the majority will change and so excessives of the previous administration tend to be moderated by the next.

Edited to add: how does your yes answer relate to Iran and Iraq? If the evidence for the Iraq war had actually been correct, if the US and Britain had put such evidence before the UN and achieved consensus, if the War had been executed with multinational forces including those from the region with a clear development and exit stratergy - outlined at the begining, ............then you may have been on the path for a justified war.............
 
If an Iranian WMD is used on a western nation or transported to a situation where Iran can not prevent its use then you are in the realm of justifiable war...........
 
Shame old empty head Bush and jug ears never think further than each others navel....

[/quote]




Sinergy -> RE: Imperialism (4/16/2007 8:34:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

 selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies


You want to run the mechanism of how that works by me?

FirmKY



These two books should help clear up any misunderstandings you might have.

The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Gregory Palaste

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, although I dont remember the name of the author.

quote:



PS. Merc ... I know.  Saying your wrong (or sorry) was never the strong point of "the other side".  [:D]



On the other hand, perhaps the reason that Iraqi resources have not been subordinated to US interests so far is because AnencephalyBoy and Shotgun screwed the pooch so badly.

In other words, you would technically be right that it is not Imperialism because those trying to create the Neo-Con New World Order were not bright enough to actually make it happen.

Sinergy




Real0ne -> RE: Imperialism (4/16/2007 9:59:42 PM)

Palaste, i like his work.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/16/2007 10:25:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
 selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies
You want to run the mechanism of how that works by me?


These two books should help clear up any misunderstandings you might have.

The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Gregory Palaste

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, although I dont remember the name of the author.


John Perkins wrote Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

Greg Palast wrote The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

I've got Palast's book.  I've researched Perkin's.  I'm not impressed.

The problem with both of them is that they are generally just "confirmation bias" books, preaching to the choir on the evils of globalization and capitalism.  I'd even classify Perkin's book as a conspiracy theory work.

And, in the long run, they do a disservice to anyone really wishing to make effective changes in the system. 

And, your references don't really answer the question about how Iraqi oil contracts awarded to Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese and Indonesian companies will put dollars in the pockets of American companies.

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 1:54:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


To say that it will not be subordinate to the US when Iraq's government will depend on the US is laughable.


Please give me your definition of "subordinate" and how it relates to my quote of a "subordinate political department of the United States" as that relates to the normal definition of "imperialism".



The USA has removed one regime and replaced it with a US friendly regime. If you can't see the imperialism in that just replace USA with Russia, I'm sure then, the mental barriers to you recognizing imperialism will dessolve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

 selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies


You want to run the mechanism of how that works by me?



It is quite obvious that the plan is for US companies to have the oil licences and contracts so those companies will get a % of the profits of Iraqi oil no matter ewho the oil is sold to.

Who knows what other plans the Bush administration has for its cronies once Iraqi oil has been privatised and the contracts are in the hands of US companies.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 7:25:05 AM)

quote:

It is quite obvious that the plan is for US companies to have the oil licenses and contracts so those companies will get a % of the profits of Iraqi oil no matter who the oil is sold to.

Who knows what other plans the Bush administration has for its cronies once Iraqi oil has been privatized and the contracts are in the hands of US companies.
MC,

"Who knows..."?
When the factual current events don't follow the assumptions you made you resort to speculation? President Bush had USA oil interests in mind going into the war, but "screwed the pooch" to make the current regime not deal with the USA? If oil was the goal in the vacuum after Saddam was overthrown, why not install a modern day General MacArthur or General Patton to pump in directly into USA tankers? Are the facts so contrary to what you would believe happen that you need to rationalize or create conspiracy theories to maintain your view? Why not speculate than that the US A's actions in Iraqi will form a utopia in Iraq in 20 years? 

There is no oil company that is solely USA based and operating. Every public oil company in the world can be traced to USA roots if, by no other means, its shareholders. There is a tremendous loss of credibility when something like the oil contracts issued by Iraqi to customers outside direct USA interests are issued and you develop a conspiracy theory as to how it is still illustrating USA imperialism. China and Vietnam have nationalized oil. If there are USA interests involved in delivery, production, or distribution; they picked those vendors from all the other choices available. Maybe there are no other choices, but is was Iraqi's choice to sell to them, and it's China's choice what to do with the oil after the sale.

There is no need to speculate when reality is right in front of you.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 8:04:26 AM)

Excellent Merc.

FirmKY




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 8:13:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
To say that it will not be subordinate to the US when Iraq's government will depend on the US is laughable.

Please give me your definition of "subordinate" and how it relates to my quote of a "subordinate political department of the United States" as that relates to the normal definition of "imperialism".


The USA has removed one regime and replaced it with a US friendly regime. If you can't see the imperialism in that just replace USA with Russia, I'm sure then, the mental barriers to you recognizing imperialism will dessolve.


Ok, let me see if I have your shifting definitions straight:

You say that the US is being an "imperial power" in Iraq.

I point out that "imperialism" means the direct political control over another nation or colony, and that Iraq won't become a subordinate political department of the United States as required by that definition.

You back up and tell me that Iraq will be "subordinate" to the US.

I call you on your misunderstanding.

Now you claim that a "US friendly regime" still means that the US is practicing imperialism in Iraq.

What's next?  Having allies will get the US branded as "imperialistic"?

What if another nation simply trades with us.  That mean we are still "imperialistic"?

As I said, Marxists have redefined "imperialism" to mean absolutely anything that the US does.  And you've just proven my point.

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 8:14:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

It is quite obvious that the plan is for US companies to have the oil licenses and contracts so those companies will get a % of the profits of Iraqi oil no matter who the oil is sold to.

Who knows what other plans the Bush administration has for its cronies once Iraqi oil has been privatized and the contracts are in the hands of US companies.
MC,

"Who knows..."?
When the factual current events don't follow the assumptions you made you resort to speculation? President Bush had USA oil interests in mind going into the war, but "screwed the pooch" to make the current regime not deal with the USA? If oil was the goal in the vacuum after Saddam was overthrown, why not install a modern day General MacArthur or General Patton to pump in directly into USA tankers? Are the facts so contrary to what you would believe happen that you need to rationalize or create conspiracy theories to maintain your view? Why not speculate than that the US A's actions in Iraqi will form a utopia in Iraq in 20 years? 

There is no oil company that is solely USA based and operating. Every public oil company in the world can be traced to USA roots if, by no other means, its shareholders. There is a tremendous loss of credibility when something like the oil contracts issued by Iraqi to customers outside direct USA interests are issued and you develop a conspiracy theory as to how it is still illustrating USA imperialism. China and Vietnam have nationalized oil. If there are USA interests involved in delivery, production, or distribution; they picked those vendors from all the other choices available. Maybe there are no other choices, but is was Iraqi's choice to sell to them, and it's China's choice what to do with the oil after the sale.

There is no need to speculate when reality is right in front of you.


It is the Bush administration pressing for privatisation of Iraqi oil, not the Iraqis, this the Iraqis have made quite clear. It is American oil companies that are expected to get the contracts and it is the Bush administration that is pressing for this, the Iraqis have also made this quite clear. The reason for the delay in this happening is because the Iraqi government feels it needs more time to get enough support to carry out this policy.




meatcleaver -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 8:16:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I point out that "imperialism" means the direct political control over another nation or colony, and that Iraq won't become a subordinate political department of the United States as required by that definition.



No it doesn't. Britain, France and Spain didn't have direct control over all the nations and colonies in their empires. They were still empires.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 8:29:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I point out that "imperialism" means the direct political control over another nation or colony, and that Iraq won't become a subordinate political department of the United States as required by that definition.



No it doesn't. Britain, France and Spain didn't have direct control over all the nations and colonies in their empires. They were still empires.


You're quibbling, methinks. 

France and Spain you'll have to source.

For Britain ... weren't most of the companies which ran the colonies given direct authorization from the sovereign to do so?

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 9:16:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

For Britain ... weren't most of the companies which ran the colonies given direct authorization from the sovereign to do so?



No. The British empire was built on private enterprise and private capital. Companies employed mercenaries to fight their battles. After the debacle of Britain almost going bankrupt through the upkeep of the north American colonies and the massive trade surplus it financed in favour of the colonies, the British government refused to get involved in any empire building. It later took the roll of keeping the sea lanes open and in the mid 19th century it more or less nationalised the Indian empire and created the ethos of duty to empire to stop the exploitation and corruption of private capital. Many colonies were self governing and tied to Britain through culture and self interest rather than Britain imposing its will, rather like western Europe's submission to the US.

I'll have to try and find something concise enough about France and Spain, their colonies and empires did have a more complex relationship to the centre.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 9:20:55 AM)

quote:

It is the Bush administration pressing for privatization of Iraqi oil, not the Iraqis, this the Iraqis have made quite clear. It is American oil companies that are expected to get the contracts and it is the Bush administration that is pressing for this, the Iraqis have also made this quite clear. The reason for the delay in this happening is because the Iraqi government feels it needs more time to get enough support to carry out this policy.


MC,
The contracts are issued and will soon be in force according to this information:
quote:

WASHINGTON: Despite whispers in some quarters that the Bush administration invaded Iraq to take control of its oil, the first contracts with major oil firms from Iraq's new government are likely to go not to US companies, but rather to firms from China, India, Vietnam, and Indonesia. Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indian_firms_to_get_oil_contracts_from_Iraq/articleshow/1869478.cms


Are you debating the theoretical?

On your point, if "imperialism" were involved why would President Bush need to "press" or negotiate a favorable contract for the USA? An imperialist conquest would result in no option for the oppressed conquered territory wouldn't it?




meatcleaver -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 9:40:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

On your point, if "imperialism" were involved why would President Bush need to "press" or negotiate a favorable contract for the USA? An imperialist conquest would result in no option for the oppressed conquered territory wouldn't it?


No necessarily. The British during their empire were not averse to losing some influence on the roundabouts to gain more on the swings. The reason the British Empire was so much more successful than the French and the Spanish was because of its felexibility and willingness to give ground but that was also due to the fact it was a democracy and had more than one interest to satisfy and keep happy.




Sinergy -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 10:49:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

 selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies

You want to run the mechanism of how that works by me?


These two books should help clear up any misunderstandings you might have.

The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Gregory Palaste

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, although I dont remember the name of the author.


John Perkins wrote Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

Greg Palast wrote The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

I've got Palast's book.  I've researched Perkin's.  I'm not impressed.

The problem with both of them is that they are generally just "confirmation bias" books, preaching to the choir on the evils of globalization and capitalism.  I'd even classify Perkin's book as a conspiracy theory work.

And, in the long run, they do a disservice to anyone really wishing to make effective changes in the system. 

And, your references don't really answer the question about how Iraqi oil contracts awarded to Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese and Indonesian companies will put dollars in the pockets of American companies.

FirmKY


Your response doesnt mention anything about the Neo-cons screwing the pooch.

So I guess we are even.

Sinergy

p.s.  Care to clarify why you were not impressed with Palaste's work?  He is the journalist who has information faxed to him, uncovers information to support his claims.  You simply making the comment that "you are not impressed" without providing any sort of analysis or supporting information to back up why you are not impressed seems to me to not be worth the bandwidth it is printed on.  I made a point in another thread (or perhaps this one) that using that form of argument is like saying Van Gogh was a bad painter because he was certifiably insane.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 11:10:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

For Britain ... weren't most of the companies which ran the colonies given direct authorization from the sovereign to do so?



No. The British empire was built on private enterprise and private capital. Companies employed mercenaries to fight their battles. After the debacle of Britain almost going bankrupt through the upkeep of the north American colonies and the massive trade surplus it financed in favour of the colonies, the British government refused to get involved in any empire building. It later took the roll of keeping the sea lanes open and in the mid 19th century it more or less nationalised the Indian empire and created the ethos of duty to empire to stop the exploitation and corruption of private capital. Many colonies were self governing and tied to Britain through culture and self interest rather than Britain imposing its will, rather like western Europe's submission to the US.

I'll have to try and find something concise enough about France and Spain, their colonies and empires did have a more complex relationship to the centre.


I did a quick review of some of the British Charter companies that were instrumental in forming the Empire.

Chartered company

A chartered company is an association formed by investors or shareholders for the purpose of trade, exploration and colonisation.

...

Chartered companies were usually formed, incorporated and legitimised under a royal or, in republics, an equivalent government charter. This document set out the terms under which the company could trade; defined its boundaries of influence, and described its rights and responsibilities.

...

In order to carry out their many tasks, which in many cases included functions - such as security and defence - usually reserved for a sovereign state

I look specifically at the East India Company, and the Virginia Companies.

Virginia Companies
The Virginia Company refers collectively to a pair of English joint stock companies chartered by James I in 1606 with the purposes of establishing settlements on the coast of North America. The two companies, called the Virginia Company of London (or the London Company) and the Virginia Company of Plymouth (or Plymouth Company) operated with identical charters but with differing territories. An area of overlapping territory was created. Within the area of overlap, the two companies were not permitted to establish colonies within one hundred miles of each other.

The charters of the companies called for a local council for each, but with ultimate authority residing with the King through the Council of Virginia in England.

East India Company:

By an act that was passed in 1698, a new "parallel" East India Company (officially titled the English Company Trading to the East Indies) was floated under a state-backed indemnity ...

...

Both companies finally merged in 1702, by a tripartite indenture involving them both as well as the state ...

...

The Company became the single largest player in the British global market, and reserved for itself an unassailable position in the decision-making process of the Government.

...

East India Company Act 1773

By this Act (13 Geo. III, c. 63), the Parliament of Great Britain imposed a series of administrative and economic reforms and by doing so clearly established its sovereignty and ultimate control over the Company. The Act recognized the Company's political functions and clearly established that the "acquisition of sovereignty by the subjects of the Crown is on behalf of the Crown and not in its own right."

...

East India Company Act (Pitt's India Act) 1784

This Act (24 Geo. III, s. 2, c. 25) had two key aspects:

    * Relationship to the British Government - the Bill clearly differentiated the political functions of the East India Company from its commercial activities. For its political transactions, the Act directly subordinated the East India Company to the British Government

...

Act of 1786

This Act (26 Geo. III c. 16) enacted the demand of Lord Cornwallis, that the powers of the Governor-General be enlarged to empower him, in special cases, to override the majority of his Council and act on his own special responsibility. The Act also enabled the offices of the Governor-General and the Commander-in-Chief to be jointly held by the same official.

This Act clearly demarcated borders between the Crown and the Company. After this point, the Company functioned as a regularized subsidiary of the Crown,

Most of the commercial concerns shared the direct responsibility to the Crown for their activities.  In the early stages, even if they were not de jure instruments of British sovereignity, they were de facto.

FirmKY




juliaoceania -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 11:11:59 AM)

quote:

p.s.  Care to clarify why you were not impressed with Palaste's work?  He is the journalist who has information faxed to him, uncovers information to support his claims.  You simply making the comment that "you are not impressed" without providing any sort of analysis or supporting information to back up why you are not impressed seems to me to not be worth the bandwidth it is printed on.  I made a point in another thread (or perhaps this one) that using that form of argument is like saying Van Gogh was a bad painter because he was certifiably insane.


Greg Palast is one of the last investigative reporters in this country. He actually does investigations, he does not do this in a partisan manner either. I remember when he wrote about Clinton committing impeachable offenses that were overlooked to brook a deal with the republican party because one of their top supporters was criminally implicated in it... the name of this republican supporter escapes me at the moment. Greg Palast tends to dislike corruption no matter which party is implicated in it, and he makes no bones about the fact that Democrats have the propensity to be just as corrupt. He just makes the note that corruption tends to favor the party in power, and his books on our government have been written mostly since the Republicans have been in power. I would fully expect him to expose similiar shenanigans now the democrats control things




FirmhandKY -> RE: Imperialism (4/17/2007 11:27:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
 selling oil to China or Russia will put some of the profits into American companies

You want to run the mechanism of how that works by me?


These two books should help clear up any misunderstandings you might have.

The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Gregory Palaste

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, although I dont remember the name of the author.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Your response doesnt mention anything about the Neo-cons screwing the pooch.

So I guess we are even.

Sinergy

p.s.  Care to clarify why you were not impressed with Palaste's work?  He is the journalist who has information faxed to him, uncovers information to support his claims.  You simply making the comment that "you are not impressed" without providing any sort of analysis or supporting information to back up why you are not impressed seems to me to not be worth the bandwidth it is printed on.  I made a point in another thread (or perhaps this one) that using that form of argument is like saying Van Gogh was a bad painter because he was certifiably insane.


You simply making the comment that "you are not impressed" without providing any sort of analysis or supporting information to back up why you are not impressed seems to me to not be worth the bandwidth it is printed on.

You giving the title of two books without providing any sort of analysis or supporting information to back up why they will answer the question of how American companies will make money from Iraq oil contracts with non-American firms seems to me to not be worth the bandwidth it is printed on.

I don't consider the single sentence "These two books should help clear up any misunderstandings you might have." much in the way of an answer.

FirmKY




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