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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 9:34:36 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		BondageTop i think what you are saying is that you recognize society in general as having submissive and dominant relationships of all sorts (parent/child, boss/worker, etc) and that they serve a function in that they help relationships flourish and flow within a certain framework, by whatever means - manipulation, benevolence etc.  You feel bdsm has stepped in, so to speak, as a way to clarify what has gone askew over the years in terms of gender specific roles, that were well defined in  the 50's to what we have now, which is not so well defined in our culture today?  In a sense i see that you are saying bdsm as such was born as a result of confusion because roles have changed so much in a short span of time?  BDSM solidifies these roles and removes the confusion and people then don't have as many choices - interesting persepctive, thank you. 

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 9:44:00 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Mstrjx, You feel submissives need structure and consequences and that can only be gotten by being with someone who also buys into a relationship that is inherently unequal.  i can see where a vanilla can expect structure from his partner but have a real hard time with the consequences part.  You mentioned how having an opportunity to make choices would go against the subs grain - i am not sure if this would be the case for some subs, and is that really tied to want to hand over responsibility to the dom for all choices?  Thats one thing i think probably many negotiate on - how much control one wants to relinquish. i would suspect that some doms perhaps don't want to make every choice in a relationship either - just whats important to their own needs as opposed to the opposite which would be micro managing someone.  But i understand your basic point.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 9:51:34 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Sir Dominic, that sort of was my question in a way - can they feel fulfilled being submissive with a man who isn't necessarily actively dominating them, but your example was a good one in that i think it gave a good example of domination that was unhealthy to a person.  Do you think this woman is happy with this man? You said "it doesn't bother her enough to do anything about it." that doesn't sound very encouraging, it sounds like she's accepting of her lot in life and not really enjoying it - like it's a forced submission not something she would freely choose.  He sounds like a domineering man and a very insecure one at that. 


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 9:57:35 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Celeste43, i am wondering if what you are saying is that being submissive to someone who will actively use that to make all the decisions makes your life easier and less stressful?  i have heard from other submissives that feel the same way - they like to relinquish control because it simplifies life for them and somehow it frees them up in other ways.  What about the decision making process do you find stressful? If you were with a dom who allowed you many daily choices, would you become disenchanted with him and negotiate for him to take more control? 

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:04:31 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

What i want to understand is why does submission have to necessarily have to rely on dominance to work? 


For me personally, submissiveness is a response (to dominance). 

If dominance is absent, my submissiveness remains dormant.  


i think many subs are like this, in that their submissive response to someone relies upon their partners dominant energy.  i wonder if dominants feel the same way?  i think also that many subs identify as being submissive in all aspects of their lives, to everyone they encounter.  Interesting difference, i suppose in part developed in how they were raised in general?

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:12:43 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Susan i think you make a valid point in that it definately cannot work with someone if they think what you are doing is weird or sick - i mean gosh, that would just squash all the desire out of it for me for sure.  i agree people are either wired for it or they aren't. What you have mentioned and i have read in other posts here is what's termed "dominant or submissive energy" and i think this plays a large part in what feeds the submissive desire, and prolly the dominants desire too, but i cannot speak for them since i am not a dominant, i can only surmise.

People can present as dominant personalities but if they don't buy into the dynamic of D/s it's not going to work long term to feed a sub's need to be dominated. 

< Message edited by velvetears -- 4/14/2007 10:14:30 PM >

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:20:37 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

quote:

If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not?

Greetings
 
It does not matter to me. Even without the fancy lables, I would still be submissive to Master, I would still be submissive to the rest of the males I come into contact with in real life, etc, etc.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa


May i ask what motivates your submission?  i am not talking about labels here ie: what one calls themselves, but how a person behaves.  If a guy has no tendencies to be dominant, or domineering for that matter, can you still find a way to be submissive to them? If you can - is it satisfying to just serve and please others without it being recognized as an act of submission?  Thank you for giving me a different perspective to ponder, i hope to get more clarity on your point of view.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:22:07 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedkitten

quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Greetings
 
It does not matter to me. Even without the fancy lables, I would still be submissive to Master, I would still be submissive to the rest of the males I come into contact with in real life, etc, etc.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa


*nods*  I feel much the same way regarding my own submission.



Maybe you can also explain it more  in depth so i can understand more where you are coming from :-)

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:31:18 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

As someone who is submissive by nature, I unconsciously tried 'submitting' to my ex with disasterous results.  When a submissive person behaves submissively towards a person who is not dominant, that person often reacts very negatively towards the submissive person.  Attempts to stop verbal abuse by submissive behavior only brought further abuse.  Attempts to please (or appease) by simply asking what he wanted for dinner led to arguments and statements such as "Can't you make a f*cking decision?"  Acting in a submissive manner towards family and friends led to being taken advantage of because I did not set healthy boundaries in those relationships.  "Submit to one, not everyone."  For me, it is not submission until it accepted and acknowleged as such and it is in submission that I am fulfilled, not by merely behaving in a submissive manner. 

It sounds to me like you may have been trying to fix a relationship that had problems by being submissive to see if that would appease them, please correct me if i am mistaken but thats how i understand what you said.  Or you could have been saying that your acting submissively created a bad reaction in him which led to abusive behavior. i agree that one has to be careful who they react submissively with because many will just take advantage of you.  Having your submission accepted, acknowledged and appreciated is what you find important and fulfilling, from your experiences i can definately understand why.  Only a counterpart - a dominant - can truly appreciate what you have to offer, and value it for what it is. 

Also bear in mind that behaving submissively towards someone who does not desire it or ask for it is fundementally nonconsensual.

Good point, never thought about it that way.

I'm not sure I made myself clear, but it's the best I can explain it.  It is only my opinon anyway and ymmv.

Thank you :-)


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:32:14 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not?


Because so called vanilla relationships were not satisfying and they did not fit me well. There was always a sense of discomfort that I came to understand once I discovered my innate submissiveness and how this interfered with relationships.

quote:

Being submissive entails submitting to the will of another.  Most submissives, as stated in the other thread, don't prefer vanilla men as their needs are not met in those kinds of relationships. What needs specifically? What i want to understand is why does submission have to necessarily have to rely on dominance to work?  What is it that a dominant does to make your submission work or feel more validating for you? 


I do not need my submissiveness "validated". Let me put it this way, it never felt "right" when I was so giving to vanilla men. I always felt like I was willing to extend myself far more than they, and this willingness was sometimes exploited, other times disrespected, and at worst disliked to the point of being a turn off to the vanilla men I was involved with.. many vanillas do not like submissiveness in their partners in my experience. They want an equal that will not be so "eager" seeming.

It is not only my needs that were unmet in vanilla relationships, it was the vanilla men in my life that had their needs unmet too.

quote:

If you met and fell madly in love with a vanilla, couldn't you just quietly go along being submissive to him without anything back as far as active dominance?  Submission is conditional if it requires active domination on your partners part - not saying that's wrong at all, just trying to understand the nuances of the dynamic better. Submission, to be fulfilling,  needs something more then just submitting your will to another. 



I could fall in love with a vanilla person, but I could not be their submissive, nor could I allow myself to act like one with them. It would be wrong in my mind to do that because if I wanted a real relationship with someone it seems dishonest not to share who I am inside...if they could accept my submissive personality, then we could have a relationship... BUT I would not expect them to tell me what to do or be my dom. We could be equals even though my nature is submissive in personal relationships... if he could accept that I think I could too...but seeing as I do have a wonderful Daddy, this is all hypothetical.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:37:32 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

I could probably have a good relationship with someone who wanted a 1950s type relationship but other than that was vanilla. Probably. The problem is finding someone like that who is truly able to do that in this day and age. It is easy to find someone who wants that kind of control who is actually domineering rather than dominant. The problem with submitting to a domineering person is that they will keep pushing until they are abusive rather than dominant. BTDT won't do it again.

Finding someone whose energy complements mine will work better for me in the end. It's that energy exchange/power exchange that makes a good relationship click into place.


There's that energy word again :-)  Seems to be a popular theme here - and one by the way which i also recognize for myself as important in my own D/s relationships. i agree domineering is different than dominant but do you really think domineering always has to lead to abuse, eventually?  i've known some domineering men, who hadn't a clue what being a dominant was, who knew where to draw the line when it came to abuse.  i don't like domineering becasue to be it reeks of bullying and getting your way irregardless of how the other peson feels. 

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:42:20 PM   
selfbnd411


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quote:


my question is this: If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not?


I don't think it's as black and white as people are making it appear.  Yes, it would be best for a submissive person to find a Dominant partner who shares their kink.  However, it's not impossible to find outlets for your submission with a vanilla partner.  I've had vanilla girlfriends, and I generally spend a lot of time figuring out what they like and want.   It's great if I can find someone who will call me slave and tie me up, but I get a lot of satisfaction out of being appreciated.  Let's not forget that no relationship, vanilla or kink, is completely equal at all times.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:44:36 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Wildfleurss, you want and need active feedback from your dom for it to work for you - to know you are making an impact and that the energy flows both ways. They are reciprocal and feed off each other - so for you - one cannot exist without the other.  i also see where you are saying that you like your submission challenged, not to be easy all the time,  and a vanilla man - at best could accept your submission but not challenge it like a dominant could.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 10:53:04 PM   
littlesarbonn


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Status: offline 		A lot of the responses are based on the poster's perception and desires in the relationship, but while I agree with those, for me there's also something else going on. If I get involved in a relationship with someone who is not dominant, yes, I can get my submissive feelings fed by this relationship, but if she's also a submissive, then I realize that I'm probably being very selfish by pursuing this relationship with only my desires being met. Sure, I could reciprocate, but what then happens is you have two submissives who end up being forced into switching because they both want to satisfy the other partner and it could create some very uncomfortable situations.

Personally, I've actually always felt I'd probably do well to marry a submissive woman because I could probably reciprocate in such a way, and my type of service doesn't really require the same amount of reciprocation in return. Some, sure, but probably not as much.


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/15/2007 12:08:04 AM   
sublizzie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
There's that energy word again :-)  Seems to be a popular theme here - and one by the way which i also recognize for myself as important in my own D/s relationships. i agree domineering is different than dominant but do you really think domineering always has to lead to abuse, eventually?  i've known some domineering men, who hadn't a clue what being a dominant was, who knew where to draw the line when it came to abuse.  i don't like domineering becasue to be it reeks of bullying and getting your way irregardless of how the other peson feels. 


Domineering people are afraid. The more you give in to their domineering, the more afraid they are of the power they hold so they push even harder trying to find the limit. By submitting to them, they can eventually become abusive. Submission to their domineering just feeds their fears. Bullies are abusive towards others, even if not physically so, because they are afraid or hurting. The more leeway they get, the more they take. It's how they build themselves up.

I'm more and more aware of the energy around me. Good energy, heavy energy, positive energy, negative energy, Dominant energy, submissive energy...... People all give off energy. It's finding one whose harmonics mesh with mine that I want to find.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/15/2007 6:33:40 AM   
jauntyone


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quote:

May i ask what motivates your submission?  i am not talking about labels here ie: what one calls themselves, but how a person behaves.  If a guy has no tendencies to be dominant, or domineering for that matter, can you still find a way to be submissive to them? If you can - is it satisfying to just serve and please others without it being recognized as an act of submission?  Thank you for giving me a different perspective to ponder, i hope to get more clarity on your point of view.

Greetings velvetears
 
There is nothing specific that MOTIVATES me to be submissive. It is simply the way I am; I have never been anything else in life.
 
Even if Master's personality was not as strong as it was, I would still be the same way with him. When Master is gone, if one of his friends calls and says that they are coming over, to have dinner ready; I have dinner ready for him and who ever he may bring with him. In my fathters presence, I am the same way; in the presence of my brother, I am the same way; in the presence of a stranger, I am the same way.
 
It simply is who I am. I don't look for things to "motivate me' nor do I look for rewards because of the way I am.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/15/2007 6:42:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:


my question is this: If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not? 


Because many guys and gals who aren’t dominant aren’t interested in being served by a submissive?  If you try to explain it, they might even go so far as to suggest or demand you get counseling, behavioral therapy and/or medication so that you can act like “normal” folks.  Bleckk.

quote:


What i want to understand is why does submission have to necessarily have to rely on dominance to work?


If there are no ideals, rules, dogma, authority or control that you submit to or situational experiences with others that you participate in, what are you submitting to?

quote:


What is it that a dominant does to make your submission work or feel more validating for you?
 
Acceptance and/or direction of this slave’s submission.  If a Dominant, submissive, switch or otherwise oriented person doesn’t accept it or direct it, this slave goes unused.

quote:


If you met and fell madly in love with a vanilla, couldn't you just quietly go along being submissive to him without anything back as far as active dominance?
 
Been there, done that...with the first one, even “acted” dominant from time to time, just to please him.  Having a submissive partner turned him off and sent him elsewhere.  After a near death experience with the second one, this slave decided it was more important to live to see another day than it was to serve him.


quote:


Submission, to be fulfilling,  needs something more then just submitting your will to another.
 
Perhaps in the context of a Long Term Intimate Relationship it does…but in the context of service to other person(s)it doesn’t…this slave has been very fulfilled in the past by submitting to serving several persons and entities who knew/know (and neither did they care to) nothing of the “fulfillment” this submissive got from serving them.  Many just thought of this slave as a helpful giver, an obedient daughter, a dedicated volunteer or a super-involved single Mom.  some appreciated the service, some didn't.  the appreciation wasn't the motivation.  it fulfilled this slave to serve...often with no strings attached.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/15/2007 7:01:11 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		julia, when you used the term "eager" it sparked a memory for me which resonates with what you are saying.  i had a bf  in my early 20's and thought i was crazy in love, i was very submissive to him now that i look back on it, i suppose it being part of who i am and how i reacted to him and i can remember him telling me i was like having an eager puppy around. Needless to say his words hurt me, crushed me, because they made me feel like there was something wrong with me. Instead of my "eagerness" drawing him closer to me, it made him grow disdain for me. He was domineering and eventually became abusive towards me.  i knew nothing of bdsm or D/s back then - i only realize by looking back what the dynamics were in that relationship and how i responded to him. 

You make a valid point when you say "It is not only my needs that were unmet in vanilla relationships, it was the vanilla men in my life that had their needs unmet too."  We assume our submission is a good think and how can anyone not like it, but many men just simply look at it as a burden or like a weakness.   



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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/15/2007 7:12:40 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		selfbnd your the first male submissive who responded :-)  You made reference to being able to find an outlet for it with vanilla gfs and needing at least appreciation for what you give, the bonus being getting someone to actually agree to role play a scene with you.  i wonder if this is a gender difference in submissives? i don't think i would get anything at all out of getting someone to role play with me just to appease me, for it to work for me, for me to get any satisfaction out of it, the domination would have to be real.  Thanks for posting a different perspective and giving me something to think about. i would love to  hear from more male submissives out there

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/15/2007 7:16:46 AM   
Wildfleurs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Wildfleurss, you want and need active feedback from your dom for it to work for you - to know you are making an impact and that the energy flows both ways. They are reciprocal and feed off each other - so for you - one cannot exist without the other. 


Active feedback, yep thats definitely a good way to put it.

quote:


i also see where you are saying that you like your submission challenged, not to be easy all the time,  and a vanilla man - at best could accept your submission but not challenge it like a dominant could.


Its not that I'm looking for a challenge or to have challenges set up.  Its rather that I think in a dynamic where the person is actually doing what they want, rather than holding back, negotiating, or just not doing it there will be challenges that just naturally arise.  I think in a relationship with someone who's not a dominant they will hold back, negotiate or just not do it in order to not rock the boat.

C~



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