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.over-all. - 4/15/2007 7:40:37 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

This thought is sparked by posts on another thread(as often the case) - well actually two different threads.

I noticed a couple of s-types claiming that they were submissive to their masters, and submissive to all males that come into contact within their life.

How is that possible? How is that in any way consensual? What about male submissives/switches who come into those lives and are having someones submission forced upon them? If that fair? Do people realise that this can make male submissives uncomfortable? And what about the females who are Dominant? Are these ignored and always seen as submissive, just because of their sex?

And visa versa - do you as a D-type think you are dominant over all males/females/insertorientation here?

Does that mean a lack of choice? A lack of mutual respect ?(yeah, so its my 'thing')

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

Post #: 1

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 7:49:04 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

even when i knew myself as only submissive, male submissive and female submissives would be submissive to me....its part of how they interact in the world, it who they are comfortable being, i never once felt uncomfy by it.

and dominants can be dominant with other dominants just not to other doms....being dominant is about following your internal compass and leading when a leader is called for...its not about being an ass...although some folks confuse the two and thats where it gets disrespectful.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 4/15/2007 7:54:29 AM >

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 2

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 7:51:53 AM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

I have a reasonably dominant personality, which means that in most situations I'm loud, outgoing, will direct conversation if no one else is directing it, and will try to get others to do things my way or do what I want to do. There are other things that it means too, but that is some of them.

I am _a_ dominant by choice, and I only consciously dominate those who have also chosen to be _a_ submissive, and to submit to me. I do tend to be a little bit more controlling/aggressive around unattached submissives, but as they are unattached it is their choice to call me on it or just ignore me. I don't do it intentionally, but I do do it.

As for submitting to those who have not consented, and it making them uncomfortable, well that is the whole problem I have with Female Supremacy. It goes like this. Women are superior. Women are more intelligent, and women are always right. Therefore the male will submit to all women. Including women who have chosen to be submissive. Even if it makes the femsub uncomfortable. Because the femsub must be wrong for having chosen submission, when women are superior and always righ....hmm.

I don't dominate all males, I don't dominate all females, and I don't dominate all subs intentionally. When I DO behave aggressively/controlling towards someone who has not asked for it, it is a form of disrespect, certainly, though it is rarely intentional.
~E

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 3

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 7:55:00 AM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

Clearly some people construct their D/s sexuality around their gender constructions. Goreans for example, and anyone who has some sort of "Goddess Worship," thing. How hard is this to grokk? Some people think you should be submissive or dominant based on gender. I think that's fucking stupid, but I'm not confused about what they are doing--I just don't agree.

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 4

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 7:58:24 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

I have a male friend who is submissive. Actually he is a complete female supremist (sp?). I know just how awkward he is when a submissive deferes to him as the more dominant. He is open and explains that it just isn't good for him and puts him in an awkward place, yet sometimes, this is ignored. If he can be empathic enough not to defere to female s-types as superior, even though it is his belief, why do they not respect him? So much so, I have seen him get up and leave an event (he is an extremely attractive man, over 6 ft and very strong looking so I guess people automatically assume his orientation).

I often have male submissives write me, or make contact at a munch and assume I am dominant because that is what they would like me to be. I always politely decline and explain. However, some people are incredibly pushy, and it was not until I was reading certain threads I even thought that some s-types automatically respond to the sex of someone, rather than the orientation.

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 5

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:03:03 AM

VixenViscious

Posts: 1
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline

Greetings .dark.

A general limit may apply to how the s-types behaviour around one set of people to another.
Everyone has their differences... Perhaps it is more possible in their work place allows it, and their social circle allows it.
If they are a wall-flower of the group, then they are technically by definition, submissive to the leader of their social circle, the more flamboyant of the group.
As work, if they are lowest in the chain of command, then again this allows for that little more submission within their mannerisms that allows for their thrills.
But no no way should it be sexually submissive. In these days and ages, being sexually submissive to your boss can get you fired. And in the case of a social circle
( 'Nilla I am thinking), this can have you sorely used and abused...

Humans as a general population exploit weakness, but not to the extremes I am talking of.

In social standing/ work related areas, people can over look it, or merely condone the behaviour through an act known as oblivion...
It is consensual as long as the submissive/slave is allowed to get away with it. ( que Cliche! ) It is not fair no, but.. again.. No one has a choice where
they work. If you are a submissive and a Manager for a local law firm, and you wished to fulfill your submissive desires in the open, you are better off
say... well, being a kitchenhand in a resturante instead of the one who calls the shots.

Very much so, anyone can be made uncomfortable in such situations.
Speaking from what experience I have, being thrust into control of others terrifies me, yet I pick up the reigns and handle them well.
I may be extremely uncomfortable, and I may be near wits end, but I do what must be done. Unfortunately.

Female Dommes... Female Dommes, if one is smart, are never ignored.
Ever.

For now, those are my thoughts, but not my opinion.
Call them musings if you need to. For now. Should I think or change my thoughts into an opinion,
I'll let you know. *smiles*

If it didn't make sense either.. Message me, and I'll be happy to explain my reasonings.

- VV

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 6

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:04:14 AM

raevnn

Posts: 152
Status: offline

Sometimes i have a hard time feeling anything but submissive.

I never liked being in control in a relationship and I hated all the management positions I've ever had.
However, I think if I went 'all out' (for lack of a better phrase right now) being submissive to every man I met, I would probably upset my Daddy because it's just not what he wants.

Sometimes I think I would enjoy 'giving in' and just being submissive, all the time, to everyone. Most people I know probably would not find it appropriate... and, since I kind of like my job, I'll stick to being actively submissive to my Daddy.

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 7

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:06:46 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

dark i understand what you are saying, and i also think that in a way he is being dominant (ie;looking to control) if he chooses to let it bug him enough to have to leave and event he was enjoying.

if he can not be comfortable letting them be who they are, and be comfortable communicating his status then i think he is very wrapped up in identifying as a submissive but not understanding the beauty and truth of being a submissive...the beauty and truth of a submissive is surrentder....and surrender means allowing...and letting go...and not having a fit when things dont go your way.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 8

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:12:02 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

Clearly some people construct their D/s sexuality around their gender constructions. Goreans for example, and anyone who has some sort of "Goddess Worship," thing. How hard is this to grokk? Some people think you should be submissive or dominant based on gender. I think that's fucking stupid, but I'm not confused about what they are doing--I just don't agree.

I completely overlooked the Gorean thought - never really occured to me before. Maybe I have just been fortunate to know Goreans who don't impose their standards on non Goreans.

Good to 'read' you again btw.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 9

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:15:35 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

dark i understand what you are saying, and i also think that in a way he is being dominant (ie;looking to control) if he chooses to let it bug him enough to have to leave and event he was enjoying.

if he can not be comfortable letting them be who they are, and be comfortable communicating his status then i think he is very wrapped up in identifying as a submissive but not understanding the beauty and truth of being a submissive...the beauty and truth of a submissive is surrentder....and surrender means allowing...and letting go...and not having a fit when things dont go your way.

Well, aren't all submissives really looking to control?

But that's another thread...

I just know how uncomfortable it makes me feel when a male submissive (never female for me, but maybe I just dont give off the bi-vibe) insists on being submissive to me. It's almost an infringment of privacy. Yes, i beautiful that they understand their submission, but what is ugly is that they are trying to dominate me by forcing their submission upon me when it isn't desired. I wouldn't leave an event over it, but I wouldn't communicate in anyway with that person again... not until they were aware of their surroundings much more.

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 10

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:16:48 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I think it is wrong to knowingly thrust one's submissiveness nonconsensually at anyone. In other words, I have the awareness that I am a submissive person, if I try to submit myself to people that have not shown a proclivity to dominance or even a dominant that has not agreed to be my dominant, that is not something I am interested in doing.

My Daddy, as a dominant man, has said many times that he does not desire submissives that do not belong to him to show him the deference of a submissive.

There is the unknowingness of people that are unaware of their submissiveness that attempt to be submissive to people without realizing they are doing so. That to me is just learning how to be in the world, how to interact with others in a way that engenders smooth relations.

I am far from submissive to everyone I meet, in fact people often look to me to take things over in my vanilla world. I feel uncomfortable by that often, but will do it if I feel it is necessary. So it goes both ways, people thrust the role of "dominant" on submissives too unaware that what they are doing is possibly making the submissive person uncomfortable... it is just a matter of awareness. I find it is easier for me to accept an "in charge" role since I discovered my submissiveness because I realize why I am uncomfortable, and I realize it is temporary, and i can express my submissiveness at home.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 11

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:18:38 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Nope - made perfect sense - thank you

(And welcome to the forums)

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to VixenViscious)

Post #: 12

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:21:58 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

dark i understand what you are saying, and i also think that in a way he is being dominant (ie;looking to control) if he chooses to let it bug him enough to have to leave and event he was enjoying.

if he can not be comfortable letting them be who they are, and be comfortable communicating his status then i think he is very wrapped up in identifying as a submissive but not understanding the beauty and truth of being a submissive...the beauty and truth of a submissive is surrentder....and surrender means allowing...and letting go...and not having a fit when things dont go your way.

Exactly what behavior is being displayed though? I can see a male sub being made very uncomfortable if some fem sub has decided to fetch him drinks/sit at his feet/always moniters his glass to make sure it's not empty/bring him food, defers to his opinion all the time, etc. Valyraen, even as a dominant male, would be very annoyed if another submissive decided to fill this role. In his words, "I'd tell her to fuck off. I'm not her anything." So in that situation, I can definately see where a male sub who believes women to be superior would be made very uncomfortable and leaving would be entirely reasonable. Not a dominant behavior, but one indicting a healthy level of self-respect and refusal to let some submissive walk all over him in her belief and complete ignoring of his own beliefs.

Frankly, if we are going get into what is dominant behavior, I think it's incrediably rude to assume that someone is sub or dom because of their gender and then to treat them that way even if they have told you otherwise. How submissive is it to try and serve someone when they don't want to be served?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 13

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:22:12 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

Greetings darkinshadows

I get the impression that your question stems more from ‘role-playing’ views?

As in, going to a club, and being submissive towards a submissive male? Please correct me if I am wrong; I do not wish to assume that this is the case?

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 14

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:22:33 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

This thought is sparked by posts on another thread(as often the case) - well actually two different threads.

I noticed a couple of s-types claiming that they were submissive to their masters, and submissive to all males that come into contact within their life.

How is that possible? How is that in any way consensual? What about male submissives/switches who come into those lives and are having someones submission forced upon them? If that fair? Do people realise that this can make male submissives uncomfortable? And what about the females who are Dominant? Are these ignored and always seen as submissive, just because of their sex?

And visa versa - do you as a D-type think you are dominant over all males/females/insertorientation here?
Does that mean a lack of choice? A lack of mutual respect ?(yeah, so its my 'thing')

Peace and Rapture

I always find comments like that rather amusing and even silly. I do think that a person can have very Dominant personality or Submissive one. But having such personality doesn't dictate that one will use a certain set of behaviors in every interaction. It very much becomes a situational dynamic that our personality will affect. But, we must also take into account other factors that influence the dynamic itself. A Submissive that is a Dominant role interacting with a Dominant will be much different than a Submissive in a Submissive role that is interacting with a Dominant. I believe individuals that use lines like I am submissive to everyone or Dominant to everyone.. are speaking for drama sake and not for any position of integrity. I would also say that such individuals could be considered to highly rude and even disrespectful in some interaction becuase of their choice of behavior. Not appreciating the other person position in the dynamic is rather rude in my opinion.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/15/2007 8:33:25 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 15

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:28:42 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

No - I mean across the board. Be it a club or in general life.

I am submissive to my Boy - the rest of the time, I am me - which is - that I belong to and submit to my Boy.

That is who I am.

Before I was in a relationship with him, I was still submissive. But I would never be submissive to everyone, because it is - to me - a response to dominance. Just as dominance is a response to submission.

To be submissive to everyone because of their sex just seems completely disrespectful IMO (i know some people disagree) Because that isn't submission, that is forcing oneself upon someone without knowing their comfort zone.

Now service is different - I tend to believe that I serve everyone - male/female/transgendered/young/old.

The amount of service depends from person to person.

Not sure if that makes sense or makes the question clearer jaunty...

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to jauntyone)

Post #: 16

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:30:06 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

I will be cooking for a large number of people again this summer. To do my job the way it needs to be done, I will be controlling the activities of a number of other people. I am submitting to the Dominants who want me cooking for the event by controlling the actions of those who are helping me. So I can be submissive by controlling/dominating others.

I am naturally submissive. I do my work from a submissive POV though I can get quite demanding and controlling in the course of my work. When I am in vanilla social situations I tend to defer to others. But that doesn't mean that I force anyone to control me.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 17

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:32:36 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

lol i loved your other thread idea....*grin*

i understand and you make a very good point, thank you for reminding me about those feelings in your usual eloquent way.

submission is not a contest...its a way of being in the world...

you have the opportunity here ,to ask yourself why it bothers you so much,...and why you enjoy being submissive.....likely it was about not needing/wanting to control right?

these people that frustrate you so, are actually your teachers. You now have an opportunity to grow as a submissive, by allowing your self to not need to control how they behave, for you to be happy.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 18

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:36:08 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

I will be cooking for a large number of people again this summer. To do my job the way it needs to be done, I will be controlling the activities of a number of other people. I am submitting to the Dominants who want me cooking for the event by controlling the actions of those who are helping me. So I can be submissive by controlling/dominating others.

I am naturally submissive. I do my work from a submissive POV though I can get quite demanding and controlling in the course of my work. When I am in vanilla social situations I tend to defer to others. But that doesn't mean that I force anyone to control me.

Yes. I understand this. But to me, this is service, not so much submission. You are doing something for many and with many. Service is a part of submission... but your not submitting your will - you are serving. But thats just my personal thought on it... not saying its right and you may view it differently.

But even if we both agree it is submission, it is still a controlled submission. Everyone participating is already fully aware who is who and what and where. Just by being there, they have already agreed on their duties and what is expected of them. What is a male submissive came up to you and wanted to kiss your feet? Worship you because you are female? Followed you around like a puppy at that event and then after the event, continued?

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 19

RE: .over-all. - 4/15/2007 8:39:51 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

But even if we both agree it is submission, it is still a controlled submission. Everyone participating is already fully aware who is who and what and where. Just by being there, they have already agreed on their duties and what is expected of them. What is a male submissive came up to you and wanted to kiss your feet? Worship you because you are female? Followed you around like a puppy at that event and then after the event, continued?

Peace

I serve both male and female Dominants so I don't see it as a gender specific thing. I was in one situation where a submissive tried to kiss my feet. No thank you!! It gives me the creepy-crawlies. {shudder}

I don't force my service or my submission on anyone. It is just there. If someone picks up on it and uses it, then that's fine. If they don't, then they don't. Their loss. As a service-oriented submissive my service tends to show my submission. Not everyone is interested in it but it's always there and available.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 20

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