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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:35:37 PM   
Jack45


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		Studies have demonstrated that citizens are less likely than police to shoot an innocent party, i.e. mistake an innocent for a criminal.
Also citizens are more accurate in their fire than the police in self defense situations.
Paul Craig Roberts, who was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration, writes:
England has discovered the truth of the NRA’s motto — “When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.” The gun ban has only disarmed the honest citizens. Drugs are banned, but they are available almost everywhere, as was alcohol during Prohibition. If a deranged person can’t obtain a black market gun, he will make a bomb.

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:36:16 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I just watched world news. They told how the Korean used his green card as one form of ID to purchase the gun. Then they ran the usual criminal background check. Of course it came back clean!! He wasn't even a US citizen. He probably spent most of his life in a foreign country. How much did they really know about his background? The right to carry firearms should only be a right for American citizens that have lived in the US either their entire lives or a good number of years. At least then the background check would show more than a tiny fraction of a person's past.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:40:18 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I just watched world news. They told how the Korean used his green card as one form of ID to purchase the gun. Then they ran the usual criminal background check. Of course it came back clean!! He wasn't even a US citizen. He probably spent most of his life in a foreign country. How much did they really know about his background? The right to carry firearms should only be a right for American citizens that have lived in the US either their entire lives or a good number of years. At least then the background check would show more than a tiny fraction of a person's past.


I remember when the NRA ranted about the unconstitionality of background checks for people purchasing guns.

I feel old.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:40:29 PM   
Jack45


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		That's a good point and something I agree with.
Another immigrant, among many others who have shot dead people at colleges.
quote:

On Nov. 1, 1991, outraged that his doctoral thesis had been passed over for an academic prize, a young physicist at the University of Iowa named Gang Lu opened fire at a physics department meeting. He killed five people and paralyzed another before taking his own life.


See also:
Immigrant Shootings

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:41:29 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I read about a situation where 10 police officers surrounded a guy in a car and had a shootout.  The police fired 72 bullets.  They killed buildings, trees, parked cars, windows, etc.  Hit the guy twice.  Neither of these wounds killed him.  The gun expert we have come in to teach how guns work to our unarmed defense against the armed assailant made the comment that 2 out of 72 is above average in terms of police effectiveness during a gunfight.

Of course, policemen train and train with their weapons and face adrenalized situations on an almost daily basis.  Whereas Joe Doaks from Podunk, Il., who bought a gun to protect himself in Calculus class doesnt


This is pure speculation. Outside of the academy there is little training involved for most police officers other than mandatory periodic qualification testing. Just as there is a population of police with an interest in training to the fullest, there too is a population of police who have as much aversion to guns as some detractors here and they clear it from the hoster when required to by duty.

Just as there is that population of scared convenience store clerks or sexual assualt victims who take the course then leave the gun in the counter/purse like it was a can of Fix O Flat, there are those who spend THOUSANDS of dollars to handgun training academies that teach the CQB tactics to SWAT agenceies and practice religiously.

There are good and bad on both sides, and neither of us have the numbers so there is no point making such baseless generalizations.

quote:

On a related note, Pulpsmack, I am a six foot one male (in excellent shape) third degree black belt who has taught martial arts and self defense for 25 years.  The legal standard for defending oneself (i.e. striking the first blow) in the state of California is one has to feel their life is in danger.  Any idea how difficult it would be for me to overcome this standard?

Last fight I was in I was 15.  Last guy who tried to pick a fight with me ended up enjoying the beer I bought him to make him go away.  Best $3.50 investment I can think of.


You mention this everytime this discussion comes up, and I really don't know what I am supposed to say about it this round. It's not exactly clear how it addresses anything I have said (or I seem to be having trouble connecting the dots with what you are trying to respond to), but hey, congratulations on taking the time to find a means of self defense.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:52:38 PM   
theFirewithin


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/4/2005
Status: offline 		Hello,

Actually he was 23 years old and had been in the country with his parents (they live in Centreville, VA) since 1992, I believe that makes 15 years here.  I believe 15 years equates to a "good number of years" in this country.   Given the fact that he was only 23 years old would mean the majority of his life was actually spent here in the U.S.A.

Again, this comes down to the person's mental stability and in this case instability who is carrying the gun.  This is not the fault of weapon or the fact that as Americans we are rightfully allowed to bear arms.

thefirewithin


(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 5:03:11 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

This is pure speculation.



So I am speculating that 10 officers fired 72 bullets at a guy in a car from distances up to 10 meters and hit him twice?

Uh, ok.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 5:18:23 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

This is pure speculation.



So I am speculating that 10 officers fired 72 bullets at a guy in a car from distances up to 10 meters and hit him twice?

Uh, ok.

Sinergy




I am not sure whether you just like respond without bothering to read anything or you think it's cute to act like the words sitting inches from your face do not exist. This is the second post today where you have played this game. I suppose you might have a fundamental learning disability/comprehension issue, and if you do I am genuinely sorry to hear that. Otherwise, it is obvious that you are disregarding the obvious in troll-like fashion, and it is not amusing in the least. 

It was CRYSTAL clear with the paragraph that followed that what I cited as  pure speculation on your part was your assessment about police who train all the time and citizens who leave their CCWs to rust in the holsters, not that it was speculation about your police shooting story.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/17/2007 5:22:18 PM >

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 5:41:23 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I just watched world news. They told how the Korean used his green card as one form of ID to purchase the gun. Then they ran the usual criminal background check. Of course it came back clean!! He wasn't even a US citizen. He probably spent most of his life in a foreign country. How much did they really know about his background? The right to carry firearms should only be a right for American citizens that have lived in the US either their entire lives or a good number of years. At least then the background check would show more than a tiny fraction of a person's past.

"The Korean" moved to the US with his parents when he was EIGHT YEARS OLD! 

Exactly what valuable information from those 8 "missing" years would have been uncovered during a background check?  When he was toilet trained?  When he stopped breast feeding?  When he learned to ride a bicycle?  What???

Is there any aspect of your life that isn't completely controlled by your xenophobia?

~stef

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(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 5:51:27 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

It was CRYSTAL clear with the paragraph that followed that what I cited as  pure speculation on your part was your assessment about police who train all the time and citizens who leave their CCWs to rust in the holsters, not that it was speculation about your police shooting story.



Thank you for questioning my reading and comprehension skills.  If you review my original post you will see that I never said anything about police training all the time.

My comment was about police working under the influence of adrenalin, as opposed to John Q. Public who may not spend much time or work under the influence of adrenalin.  A person who spends a lot of their time adrenalized tends to a) be emotionally on a hair-trigger and never considers their lack of ability to make fine motor movements, or b) learns how to manage the loss of higher reasoning and fine motor movements.

While we are discussing speculation, it is equally speculative of you to suggest that the 10 officers who fired 72 bullets and hit a man twice (non fatally) at distances not exceeding 10 meters distance do not train all the time.  You have no idea what they do.

Given a choice between your opinion and the opinion of a known expert who advises police and federal agents and bouncers in firearms combat, I am going to go with his opinion.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 5:53:43 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Lots of rhetoric responses on both sides of this event.
If only one of the victims had a gun too, assumes too much
A gun in a student's (victim's) hands would have made the situation worse assumes just as much.
Niether possition is anything but conjecture.

One assumes the right student would have it and have the opportunity to use it and be effective. Alot to assume
The other assumes that the student would not have the opportunity and if they did would be ineffective at best and incompetent at worst. Also alot to assume.

Personally I'd rather know someone I cared about was mistakenly hit by someone trying to stop the criminal, than that they were purposefully targeted by the shooter. At least in one case someone was doing something to try to save other's lives.


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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 6:02:58 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Lots of rhetoric responses on both sides of this event.
If only one of the victims had a gun too, assumes too much
A gun in a student's (victim's) hands would have made the situation worse assumes just as much.
Niether possition is anything but conjecture.

One assumes the right student would have it and have the opportunity to use it and be effective. Alot to assume
The other assumes that the student would not have the opportunity and if they did would be ineffective at best and incompetent at worst. Also alot to assume.

Personally I'd rather know someone I cared about was mistakenly hit by someone trying to stop the criminal, than that they were purposefully targeted by the shooter. At least in one case someone was doing something to try to save other's lives.




I agree with you, Archer.

Saying they should have all been armed is speculation.  Saying nobody should have been armed is speculation.

It is easy to monday morning quarterback what happened, but the reality is a real tragedy took place, and there are no guarantees or definitive solutions.

Our thoughts go out to those involved and their friends and families.

Sinergy and strumpet.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 6:18:34 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


Thank you for questioning my reading and comprehension skills.  If you review my original post you will see that I never said anything about police training all the time.


compare this to...

quote:

Sinergy:
Of course, policemen train and train with their weapons and face adrenalized situations on an almost daily basis.  Whereas Joe Doaks from Podunk, Il., who bought a gun to protect himself in Calculus class doesnt


quote:

Sinergy
My comment was about police working under the influence of adrenalin, as opposed to John Q. Public who may not spend much time or work under the influence of adrenalin.


Your comment was about police training AND facing adrenalized situations, whereas the average citizen does not (meaning he neither trains and trains nor does he face adrenalized situations). Perhaps your intentions were to say that police face adrenalized situations that people don't, and leave it at that, but that is NOT what you wrote. 


quote:

Sinergy
While we are discussing speculation, it is equally speculative of you to suggest that the 10 officers who fired 72 bullets and hit a man twice (non fatally) at distances not exceeding 10 meters distance do not train all the time.  You have no idea what they do.


FOR THE THIRD TIME ... (LOOK IT'S IN CAPS LOCK NOW SO MAYBE YOU WILL ACTUALLY READ THIS):  I NEVER SUGGESTED ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR POLICE SHOOTING STORY. I EVEN SAID EXPLICITLY THAT I WAS NOT REFERRING TO THAT PORTION OF YOUR POST AND YOU STILL MISSED IT.

Look...

quote:

Pulpsmack:

It was CRYSTAL clear with the paragraph that followed that what I cited as  pure speculation on your part was your assessment about police who train all the time and citizens who leave their CCWs to rust in the holsters, not that it was speculation about your police shooting story.





Dude, seriously... I don't want to make this about some personal attack or come off like I am making fun of a disability... honestly. But you really need to look into this issue. I am not saying you are learning disabled. I really don't know. But you keep missing these points that I have written, over and over, and it really detracts from the discussion. 

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/17/2007 6:22:14 PM >

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 6:46:38 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		general post,

this is worth listening to!

live fron the campus with none other than alex!  LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZH7yEkN7Hw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgnU2YSe008


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(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 6:51:05 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I have blocked the posts of at least two people that lack reading and comprehension skills due to some disability or whatever. I could do without the inevitable conflicts and felt the need to preserve my mental health. Besides, one of them got me into trouble with a moderator after my innocuous question without any ill will whatsoever whether he suffered from dyslexia. I block everyone that gets me into trouble with a mod.
 
It has occurred to me that it is not the smart thing to do to act like a sitting duck when someone starts to methodically open fire upon people. I suspect that there will be far fewer victims when everybody starts to run about eratically and starts to throw whatever is handy up to socks and clothes at the shooter. What do you all think of my hypothesis?

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 6:55:35 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It has occurred to me that it is not the smart thing to do to act like a sitting duck when someone starts to methodically open fire upon people. I suspect that there will be far fewer victims when everybody starts to run about eratically and starts to throw whatever is handy up to socks and clothes at the shooter. What do you all think of my hypothesis?


I think most people would agree.  I also think that most of us would say that it's what we would do in that situation.  But honestly, I think I'd freeze up.   And it obviously happens to a lot of people because they didn't attack him.   I can't even begin to imagine how incredibly scared they must have been in order for their survival instincts to shut down.

< Message edited by Aileen68 -- 4/17/2007 6:57:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 8:21:15 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Fight or flight.  I don't think anyone really knows what their reaction is until faced with that situation.
Some people "played" dead in order to survive.


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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 9:17:00 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Funny the people who say that gun owners, criminals, cops etc aren't good shots.
If that's so then who's doing all the killing with guns?
I mean SOMEONE must be a good shot!
This Korean kid was a pretty good shot and with no experience! If he could do that much damage don't you think 4 or 5 of those kids with guns could have dispatched him in short order?"Oh, they might have missed and hit the door!" Simple, "adjust fire!"
And of course Rosie O' Dumbo the hypocrite who has bodyguards for her and her children who are Armed with Firearms said we need "strictkter gun control laws."
What a MORON she is.
When are they going to throw her off T.V.?
And local cops aren't really "experts" with firearms.
Most towns and cities can't afford a range and thousands of rounds of ammunition per month for training so most depts don't shoot as much as they should.
And it's true that most homeowners are better shots mainly because they know the layout of their own house where a burgler doesn't.
I was taught to retreat into the bedroom and , "let the bad guy come to YOU!" Then blow him into the next dimension.
I live in a condo with neighbors to either side so I use frangible bullets, i.e. bullets that will break apart into about 50 pieces upon hitting body mass. They won't go through the walls and they'll tear the shit out of the bad guy's body.
One round at center mass is a certain kill.
Oh, the real "Experts" at firearms are, not surprisingly, the U.S. Military.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 10:49:15 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		Hey Popeye...

Check this out http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Makes you rethink frangibles. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

Great info there.



< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/17/2007 10:53:43 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/18/2007 3:27:05 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/leok.htm#leokweap

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/circumst.htm#circumgun

There you go PulpSmack. Guns murder more people than all other methods combined, in the USA. Your turn to provide some backup for your own "whole-cloth" assertions.

You feel more responsible carrying a gun? Bravo. Others feel more like making their problems go away with it. A gun has two ends and just because I choose not to carry one doesn’t mean I have no rights in the matter.

I cannot provide statistics to support identifying the Iraq war and it’s effect on the American psyche, as a direct, contributory factor in mass, serial and rampage killings but it is hard to imagine that it would have a negligible effect. Perhaps things seem normal in the Homeland but from outside it seems the USA and its citizens have undergone considerable desensitisation to violence. A culture of violence will beget violence; do I need Bureau of Justice statistics to support that? And no, I don’t think it’s funny but thanks for claiming I do.

Equating guns to cars (or spoons), because they both cause deaths, IS specious and distractive because cars are not made to kill while guns are. A drunk driver killing someone out of negligence is NOT the same as someone using a weapon for it intended purpose. All things that kill are not created equally or intentionally to that task.

Neither does the threat from a firearm equate to the nuisance of a loud stereo. (Again with the reductio ad absurdum. - By the way, do only Black people have loud car stereos?) Try addressing my points instead of easier ones you concoct in my name.


Z.


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(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 120
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