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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:17:30 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

I would like to clarify something. Virginia issues concealed carry permits. If you're at least 21 and not a felon (and probably a couple of other limitations), you can take a class and get a permit to carry a concealed handgun. I have one; it's straightforward. The rules preventing anyone carrying on the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg were solely those of the University -- not laws. Any concealed carry permit holder carrying there would have only been in violation of the school's rules. But as I mentioned, the penalty for violating them (if caught) was the most severe the University could impose -- expulsion or firing, depending on the individual.

And yes, in this case it's likely that a high percentage of the victims would not have been old enough to carry legally. But examine that statement; that means that some of them almost certainly could have -- and, presumably, most staff and teachers are 21 or over?

It's an academic discussion (no pun intended); I believe that the current culture within most US universities (I can't speak specifically for Virginia Tech) is such that even were people allowed to carry, few would.


Seva, if that's true then how can a school that is taking Taxpayer Dollars abridge or restrict or deny the "Rights" of people who go onto that campus?
And I don't see why any Virginia Taxpayers should be able to go onto that campus if they feel like it. Like Ronald Reagan said; "I'm PAYING for this mike (campus) (road)" etc.
Do they abridge people's 1st Amendment rights as well?
We're not talking "breaking the rules" here like cheating we're talking about people's *Constitutional Rights.*

(in reply to SEVADom)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:29:20 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Here is the link to the Brady Bill and all of the information that goes with  it.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/

The Virginia area is one of the areas this bill has focused on.   What do I know?

Regards, MissSCD


i have no idea what you know but i know it is a constitutional right to bear arms and if you dont like it rather than petition to remove our rights move out.  there are plenty of places to, the uk has a totla weapons ban maybe there.  hope that helps




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:29:23 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear popeye1250, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
My nephew who attends Blacksburg, Virginia - Virginia Tech; over slept and was running a tad late for class, that was to start in the room where the massacre took place, after the period /class was dismissed.
 
Pure divine intervention.  A matter of ten minutes difference between outside the building and inside a chained, padlocked doors with a student with two handguns unloading rounds into students with no words spoken.
 
Currently, there are 33 people confirmed dead and many others injured.  From what the news is feeding the public, which is what the officials and law enforcement will feed the public, isn't as detailed as I would like things to be.  Yet, I look at the Sniper case which two people terrorized DC, Maryland and Virginia--killing people at random, the public really didn't get a bigger picture until there were trials and conviction.  Although the public is frustrated and not patient--investigations will require patience.  The gunman is dead (suicide allegedly) so everything has to be measured, marked, tagged, photographed, plotted and mapped, forensic measuring has to be done as to, by evidence, tell the story.  The medical examiner also has their grim tasks.  Triple the amount of victims of Cullenbine shootings in the 1990s. Each victim that died have to be 'bodies of evidence' and they tell their story.
 
Very sad events unfolded in Blacksburg, Virginia.  Mostly surrounded by farms, cows grazing and crops growing.
 
As far as my opinion on Guns, I do recall the comments of Bat Masterson, who was a lawman in the Old West before moving East and writing for the city paper in New York, where there was "gun control."  He said then--that New York was more violent then Tombstone, Arizona.  [Ref. 1960 circa - Horselovers Magazine-Old West section - Note: Horselovers Magazine was dedicated to equestrians and Western riding and history]
 
People are the problem.  Not guns.  They are tools.  Its fact--people do abuse tools.  This is true with guns as well as within the scene in using and abusing tools used by BDSM cultures.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:34:26 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs
Very sad events unfolded in Blacksburg, Virginia.  Mostly surrounded by farms, cows grazing and crops growing.
 
As far as my opinion on Guns, I do recall the comments of Bat Masterson, who was a lawman in the Old West before moving East and writing for the city paper in New York, where there was "gun control."  He said then--that New York was more violent then Tombstone, Arizona.  [Ref. 1960 circa - Horselovers Magazine-Old West section - Note: Horselovers Magazine was dedicated to equestrians and Western riding and history]
 
People are the problem.  Not guns.  They are tools.  Its fact--people do abuse tools.  This is true with guns as well as within the scene in using and abusing tools used by BDSM cultures.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs


i wanna jump in here and say excellent post and i cannot agree with you more!   i continually stress education, that is nonrevisionist education, and government accountability, it is the only way we can put all this right in this country..

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:37:52 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Yeah, it's a good thing that this jamoke wasn't smart enough to build a bomb there could have been a much higher death toll.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:43:53 PM   
SEVADom


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2006
Status: offline 		Hey, popeye -

A very complex subject. Part of Virginia concealed carry gun law makes it illegal for anyone to carry on private property where the owner prohibits concealed carry. This much is fact.

However, here the precise definition of private property may come into play. I'm not a lawyer, and am *not* familiar with this particular private property aspect; I'm speculating, and am not certain it's germane to the case at hand. Certainly government-owned property isn't private. How about corporation-owned facilities open to the public? Not open to the public? Does receipt of money from the public coffers change this -- and does it make a difference if the money is state or federal? It's not black-and-white; it's more a multidimensional continuum.

I believe that there is in fact a lawsuit underway (predating today's tragedy) against the University on the question you raise, or on a closely-related question. Sometimes, large organizations get away with things patently illegal until someone has the gumption to take them to court. This appears to me to be one of those cases. But it is in litigation (I'm not involved at all), so perhaps the outcome will be illuminating.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:53:33 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD


My condolences go out to all the families and students of VT.   I am stunned that we allow people to purchase asault weapons. 
Clinton tried to ban them.   It did not get passed.
Everyone miss understood and thought he was trying to remove all weapons.  If we just remove assualt weapons from our society, that would be a start...

Archer:

I hate to burst your intelligence level because ovbiously you are much more wiser than I am.  
That is your opinion.  Today's moron used a nine mil plus a simi automatic weapon.  They have just released that information.
Regardless of the fact, today's  moron used a weapon that others used who go aroundshooting up schools and public places usually have assualt weapons.
They need to go. 
Again, my condolences to the families and students of VT regardless of their own opinions of assault weapons.
The bill the former president tried to pass, and the last I heard, it was not passed,  was called the Brady Bill.  If it was passed, it needed to be. 
Oh, and the shooter had a bullet proof vest on.   I find that so interesting.


Regards, MissSCD




Your information on the events is as reliable as your assessment of the issue.

1. The shooter had a 9mm pistol and a .22 pistol as per YOUR Links (Brady Bunch citing CNN story)

2. The shooter didn't have a BP vest. It is a tactical vest that looks "tacticool". It is a nylon vest designed with ammunition pouches, pockets, and holsters for tactical operatives and armchair commandos for the fast access of additional magazines for reloads. They are vulnerable to all bullets


Why are you stunned that we are allowed to own "assault rifles"? We are able to own personal aircraft, exotic animals, cars capable of tripling the speed limit, and MILITARY ASSAULT VEHICLES (original jeeps and today's HUMMERS). Oh NO!!!!!!!!! Hello. Welcome to America. We were founded on the pursuit of personal freedoms. If you can't respect that and feel the need to regulate everybody's lives for your safety, might I suggest you turn in the keys to your personal automobile, your personal property, and go start a utopian totalitarian regime somewhere where you can be live worry-free from crime and freedom? If you were actually serious about making life safer for you and your loved ones, you would ban alcohol and regulate motor vehicles as if they were Abrams Tanks. Whoops... we found alcohol prohibitions don’t make alcohol disappear... BUT SURELY, it will work for scary assault rifles! riiiight. Oh and regulating cars...well that just might crimp your personal freedom a tad for your tastes. Forget the fact that your personal freedoms of owning assault vehicles and cars capable of toting drunks over 55mph are putting my loved ones at risk (at a statistically more significant number as well). I suppose it's only right to curtail freedoms that you and your kind personally don't use... typical hypocrisy.

So more people who go around shooting in public places use assault rifles, huh? I challenge you to back that up. I defy you to back that up.  Ralph McCooter, a 38 y/o disgruntled employee is fed up with his lot in life so he grabs his Ruger Mini-14 and pays a visit to his former workplace. The boss and an intervening bystander get it before the idiot offs himself. This makes CNN, Fox news, and Bush prepares an ad hoc address to the nation at large while the London Philharmonic prepares a dirge. Meanwhile, "Wooksie" Jones knocks off two rival gang members at a Detroit swap meet with his "Glock fotay". We never hear about it, and the Detroit paper might put that on page 4. How many Ralphs occur each year? How many "Wooksies?" Your "facts" and "statistics" reflect the ignorance of the sources you get them from... the sensationalistic media. Schools, malls, and disgruntled white nutcases bind the audience, not the daily slayings of  urban youth. Today in New Orleans we have witnessed about as many murders and there will be as many tomorrow. None of them will see the light of day and virtually all of them will have been committed by handguns.

In addition, your beloved Clinton ban was aimed at more than "assault weapons". The provisions of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban also banned certain shotguns and magazines for ALL firearms that exceeded 10 rounds, including handguns. I guess we only need 10 bullets right? Moreover, there is new legislation in the making that calls for more than semiautomatic assault weapons. It basically guts sporting/hunting weapons as well. You may have your own personal views and beliefs on the subject (misguided as they may be) but make no mistake... these groups you cite are not interested in the "common sense" regulation they assure their sheep they wish to pass. They are the Al Sharptons of the Second Amendment... intent on regulating firearms to death for the sake of political clout, yet recognizing they must exist in some form or the group will lose its influence.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/16/2007 10:13:01 PM >

(in reply to MissSCD)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:54:52 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear popeye1250, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
What has been taking root in the reports, there were several bomb threats prior to this massive shooting.
 
That said, this area of Virginia--the Interstate 81 is two lanes both directions.  I-95 heading to Florida and up to New York and such is a four lane highway with three lanes for three or more in a car express lanes.  Its rolling hills and explosives can be purchased to blow up rocks and stumps on farm land.  The same ingredients that blew up the Oklahoma building can be easily gotten.  Farmers hunt ground hogs and other pesky critters.
 
So far--the bomb threats have not been connected to this gunman who conducted mass murder.  Reports locally, really haven't connected the first shooting to the second larger shooting.  So, in my mind's eyes--why authorities are tight lipped; is perhaps and based on assumption at this time; is there are three points that are not tied without doubt to one another.  The fact that there may be another shooter/murderer out there (the first shooting of a female and a resident assistant who is a male) did not (at this time/allegedly) fit the description of the Asian male who shot students in the class room.
There has been no resolution to who/whom made the bomb threats a few days in a row.
 
Forensic matching of rounds/ammo and a lot of old fashioned detective work will have to take place.  Seeing that witnesses were allowed to leave and such; proves that this situation is massive and there isn't enough police, detectives and evidence collectors to process these crime scenes.  It will be months before these law enforcement officers can come off 12 hour shifts or longer.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 9:55:27 PM   
icubdsm2


Posts: 4
Joined: 4/14/2007
Status: offline 		Geez...using that logic...let's see...first, we should outlaw tobacco...since there are 12x as many people dying from that every year...outlaw all fatty foods...9 times as many people die from that every year (and lets enforce a mandatory exercise program on everyone)...outlaw alcohol, 3 times as many people die from that every year.
Heck even cars kill almost as many people per year as firearms. Let's get rid of cars...after all, its the car right? Not the driver.

Hmmm...more suicides with guns than murders too...you think if guns didn't exist there would be less suicides? Maybe. Maybe there would be more violence and less deaths...if you no longer had the fear your opponent would shoot you.
You are always going to have the psycho out there that no amount of legal thumbscrewing is going to protect you from.  I do not have a solution for everyone...however...

You want to stop the killing? Here is a recipe that works: The death penalty. Just graph the number of executions for the last 60 years vs. the amount of murders per capita. Is the death penalty bad? Maybe. Does it save innocent lives? Absolutely. There shouldn't even be a death row. It should be a death chute.

And as for RealOne's signature quote of James Madison...it seems you are using it as a jab to the current republican government, when in fact the intentions of that statement were the result of an extreme raising of taxes to support a war. Hence his refusal to raise taxes to support the war against Britian, hence the subsequent squashing of the US Navy by the British due to insufficent resources, and them burning down Washington. Thought you should know.

(in reply to MissSCD)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 10:08:58 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		here i thought it was because of the 13th amendment where it said no nobility could office in the us,  that part burned down with it.

some interesting reading

http://www.hermes-press.com/militarismindex.htm


more:

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

David Rockefeller, Memoirs, 2002


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/16/2007 10:30:16 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to icubdsm2)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 11:07:31 PM   
icubdsm2


Posts: 4
Joined: 4/14/2007
Status: offline 		Figured. Might as well hand the terrorists the keys to the country.
You guys never think about what the consequences of your actions would be.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 11:20:11 PM   
MistressK1964


Posts: 1050
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		All the students and faculty not to mention ALL the family members need our prayers and support. This is such a horrible tragedy. 

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 2:08:18 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Lady Hugs, I am very relieved that your nephew was not present in that classroom. 
Aquatic Sub and Madame Dahlia, I am glad your
loved ones are safe.  Curious Lord, most likely the phone lines are
over-taxed.  Please let us know when you hear from your brother.
 
The university and local government officials are going to notify
families first rather than release the names of the dead and wounded
in the media.  The investigation is going to take time, and MSNBC
reported tonight that a second shooter might have been involved.
 
Prayers and thoughts for all the victims, families and friends.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 2:22:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom


I was referring to actual occurrences and demonstrably successful prevention of terrorist incidents, not a theory. No matter what the motivation, this type of incident is essentially a terrorist event, an armed attack on defenseless civilians. And by and large, people here -- especially those licensed to carry -- are law-abiding (they don't get licenses if they aren't!) and follow laws that deny them permission to arm themselves as I suggest -- to the teeth if necessary. Check the locations of those 29 incidents, and see how many of them are in ostensibly "gun-free" zones ... like schools. The answer is, the vast majority of them. The good guys leave their guns at home (if they have them at all). The bad guys have a field day, usually with guns acquired and certainly carried in violation of existing laws. New laws would be similarly violated. Safety through legislation is an illusion.



This was not a terrorist event, a terrorist has a political motive. In cases such as this, the purpetrator usually appears to have a psychological problem and appears to be psychotic. Somewhat detacted from reality.

As for the majority gun owners being law abidding that might be the case. However, there is an unrefutable correlation between liberal gun laws and the amount of guns in a society and gun deaths. The USA being the top of the league for gun crime in the developed world with on average 80 deaths per day. In Europe Switzerland and Finland are the top of the league in gun deaths and lord behold! They both ahve the most liberal gun laws and the most guns in society.

As for law abiding gun owners, anyone can become psychotic at any time. Mental illness is a common occurance in human beings with 1 in 3 people suffering some form of mental illness in their life. The less people with guns the better but no matter how many such events occur people like you will never accept that guns are the problem not the solution.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/17/2007 2:23:09 AM >

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 2:43:08 AM   
MadameDahlia


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From: SoCal aka Hell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Lady Hugs, I am very relieved that your nephew was not present in that classroom. 
Aquatic Sub and Madame Dahlia, I am glad your
loved ones are safe.  Curious Lord, most likely the phone lines are
over-taxed.  Please let us know when you hear from your brother.


Thank you very much. I think I nearly swallowed my tongue when the news came on, and I saw the name of my friend's school. I'd spoken with him not too long ago about visiting him. He says that none of the people he knows on campus have any friends or family that were lost. But it's still horrific for so many others. My thoughts are with those who have lost someone and/or are still waiting to hear from someone.


_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 3:06:06 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

This was not a terrorist event, a terrorist has a political motive.


I wouldn't say that just yet. For all we know.... the shooter could be Adam Gadahn on a mission for Al-Qaeda.




- R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 3:16:51 AM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The less people with guns the better but no matter how many such events occur people like you will never accept that guns are the problem not the solution.


DUDE! Where's your brain? Guns are not the problem. PEOPLE are. There's no way in hell a gun is gonna shoot anyone unless a person is holding it.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 3:32:20 AM   
Jevousadore


Posts: 57
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline 		Hello, everyone....

Regarding comments about the possibility of this type of act being a terrorist attack.

As someone in law enforcement, we receive quite a bit of education in terrorist behavior.  A couple of things to look for in a case like this.  For the Al-Qaeda and the like, there would be at least a second to a fourth incident at the same time.  They believe in acting in fours.

Also, they will be on suicide missions.  The Koran teaches that in killing infidels, not only do they ensure themselves of entrance into heaven, but their entire extended family.  This is why it is so honorable.

Also, when it comes to fear in schools with kids, the risk of an attack in this realm is very low.  Kids, especially younger ones, are difficult to control and often cannot understand what is demanded of them. 

Attacks on schools are generally going to come from within our own community, sad as that is.

jevousadore

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:05:11 AM   
darcyinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i have no idea what you know but i know it is a constitutional right to bear arms and if you dont like it rather than petition to remove our rights move out.  there are plenty of places to, the uk has a totla weapons ban maybe there.  hope that helps



I don't disagree with you on this point, but isn't it also a constitutional right to engage in free speech, a freedom which is being (not so) slowly eroded thanks to the likes of the Patriot Act and the ever-growing army of religious fundamentalists and their brainwashed flocks (funny how congregations are named after sheep, no?). Just try speaking out against those in power or even questioning the existence of god (sorry, God), and you'll find yourself either on the end of a wiretap or on a one way trip to the fun and sunshine at Guantanamo Bay. Denounce god (sorry, God) and you'll find yourself on the receiving end of a 'holy' nailbomb through your window or such like.

The sad thing is that whatever happens in the US (and unfortunately here in my native UK more and more too) is that the citizens are all too quick to roll over and just accept the shit that is being pumped into their brains. The media/government induced hysteria about the 'War on Terror', the evils of (God help us) rock and rap music (just waiting for the first 'expert' to pop up and link Marilyn Manson or 50 Cent to this tragedy, because the one thing the media does so very well is walk all over the corpses of those killed in tragedies like this for their own self-promotion), or the constant erosion of liberties under the guise of 'protecting' the precious West.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-American, quite the opposite, but what I hate is the fact that we as nations (the US and the UK) will sit here and tap away at our keyboards, bleating about what a tragedy this is, and that someone should do something, but the reality is that no-one has the first clue how to stop our downward spiral into moral oblivion, and more importantly if they did, chances are they'd do nothing about it and just nod in the right places when our respective governments tell us that they're acting for the 'greater good'. You watch, not a damn thing will change, and we'll be carrying another brace of body bags off another campus in another year or two.

The solution? Damned if I know, but I can't help but think that we're only a few short years away from complete societal breakdown, and that one day we're going to wake up and realise that our leaders have led us onto an irreversible slippery slope straight to oblivion.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/17/2007 4:23:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The less people with guns the better but no matter how many such events occur people like you will never accept that guns are the problem not the solution.


DUDE! Where's your brain? Guns are not the problem. PEOPLE are. There's no way in hell a gun is gonna shoot anyone unless a person is holding it.


DUDE! Where's your brain? If guns aren't the problkem but people are, what the fuck are you doing letting people have guns!!!!!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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