quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
for some of us, there is no "line"...when we gave ourselves to our Master, it was with the understanding and acceptance of the fact that from that point forward we are his to do with what he wills, including "abuse" if that is his perogative. this also includes things like giving up your former sense of self, "me" time, personal limits, etc. and for us these things are very much reality, not dreamy fantasy.


i've heard this type of statement many, many times and still do not completely believe it. Everyone has a line. It may not be much of one as far as what you won't accept or tolerate but everyone does have one. i am a slave just as surely as you are and when i became such i understood and accepted that i was to always do His will. This did not include agreeing to "abuse." i suppose we each have our definition of just what abuse is. After years spent in a very abusive vanilla marriage, i had no desire to become owned by yet another abuser. i was able to become Master's slave/property because i felt as sure as i could that (what i considered) abuse would never happen in O/our relationship. The examples you provided of giving up your former sense of self, and giving up "me" time and having your former personal limits changed/pushed are certainly not abusive in my definition of the word. Submitting to Master in every way short of abuse is my reality as well and not a "dreamy fantasy." What i referred to as "fantasy" for U/us involved blindly entering into an M/s relationship in which both O/our needs, desires, limits, etc. were never fully discussed beforehand. Obviously all those things grow and change over time but the willingness to once again accept abuse - for me that will never happen. i know there are those who would argue that, as a slave, one HAS no needs, desires or limits and i say to that what i said above: heard it over and over and still don't buy it. That by no means indicates that i am not "cut out" to be a slave and a wonderful one at that.

then you are clearly saying you do not desire a slavery or TPE relationship, and perhaps only desire D/s to a very limited degree
To me, having any type of boundary or limit does not mean that one doesn't desire slavery or a TPE relationship and only wants a very limited D/s relationship. i am a slave in a TPE relationship and i don't go about setting limits and boundaries on many things. But i DO set a limit/boundary at accepting abuse, it's as simple as that. i think so many people have this idea that they just can't be a good submissive or slave if they have ANY type of boundary or limit at all and to me that's a sad thing because in actuality, i just don't believe that really exists.........slave luci

i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe]

other than that, i agree with her definition of abuse for the most part. intentional ill will [outside of the S&M context] pain to bring emotional pain, to bring mental instability .... anything that will be a detriment to mental and spiritual well being is abuse to me... so it comes down to : where are your personal lines. each will vary but for me, if He makes me feel like shit, outside of a "dirty dirty slut" context, it will most likely fit the abuse card IMO

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
slaveluci, i did not define abuse in my previous post. the other things i mentioned (no "me" time, limits, etc.) were just examples of things one gives up (including the "right" to not be abused) when entering into a certain type of M/s relationship.
Noted.
i define abuse as intentional ill treatment, severe neglect, intentional mental, emotional or physical damage. and there are certainly M/s unions where it's understood that all of the above is within the Owner's rights.
There certainly are. i was simply stating that O/ours is absolutely not one of them.
as far as your belief that everyone has a line, i am certain that there is nothing anyone could ever tell or show you that would make you feel differently, all i can say is that is simply untrue
No, on second thought i do believe there are some rare individuals who do not have lines.  There are people in this world who will accept any kind of treatment or abuse dished out to them and not think twice about deserving better.  They will consider it acceptable and remain loyal to the abuser.  My own aforementioned abusive marriage and my years of managing a domestic violence shelter have shown me that all too clearly.  i just simply believe that not having them can end up being very detrimental and unhealthy.  That is my opinion.  i am not saying that people who identify as having no lines, limits, or boundaries ARE in unhealthy relationships.  i am simply saying that, in my definition of things, that could very well be the case. 

as far as a slave having no needs, that would be ridiculous...every living being has needs.
absolutely.
 
however a slave may lose their right to have their needs met or addressed
not in O/our relationship.  i may not get my wants met but i can stake my life (and have) on the fact that my needs always will be.  i cannot imagine it being otherwise.
 
i think it's safe to say that you and i have very different relationships and very different definitions of what slavery, abuse, happiness, etc. are.  That's cool.  As long as it works for each of us, what more could ya ask for? .....slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit.
Well, glad you found it humorous but i can assure you it's not a "bit."  It's a serious opinion that i hold.  If i'm alone in holding it, that's cool.  But it's how i feel and how i live my life.
 
you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe]
This is what i was referring to when i said that i  think it's sad that people feel to be a "real," "good", or "hardcore" slave, as you put it, one has to have no limits, lines, or boundaries.  i am simply saying i totally disagree with that line of reasoning.  

so it comes down to : where are your personal lines.
Yes, my point is that i think it does indeed come down to that with everyone.  But if someone who is a total stranger to me asserts that no, indeed, there is no line or limit they won't cross, who am i to question that?  Only they know the truth and it's not going to affect my life in anyway so i hope it works as well for them as O/our way does for U/us.  After all, isn't that what it's all about? ....slave luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to mixielicous)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe]

quote:

ORIGINAL: blushingflower
It's one thing  to take control of the details of a submissive's life (e.g. telling her what to wear, what to eat, when to sleep), it's another to interfere with her ability to live it (e.g. not allowing her to see her family, forcing her to miss work, denying her medical care).  Controlling a submissive's life is dominance, preventing her from living it is abuse.  

trust is about more than knowing he won't beat you till you bleed, it's about knowing that you can tell him how you feel without fear of being belittled or ignored.

Beautifully said, blushingflower ........slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe]

mixie, i am not even in the runnings. maybe with some hard work i could make it to collarme.com's 121st most hardcore slave of the year, lol.

ya, i remembered the 5 year wait part you mentioned last time i teased you about it hehehe

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit.
Well, glad you found it humorous but i can assure you it's not a "bit." It's a serious opinion that i hold. If i'm alone in holding it, that's cool. But it's how i feel and how i live my life.

you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe]
This is what i was referring to when i said that i think it's sad that people feel to be a "real," "good", or "hardcore" slave, as you put it, one has to have no limits, lines, or boundaries. i am simply saying i totally disagree with that line of reasoning.

so it comes down to : where are your personal lines.
Yes, my point is that i think it does indeed come down to that with everyone. But if someone who is a total stranger to me asserts that no, indeed, there is no line or limit they won't cross, who am i to question that? Only they know the truth and it's not going to affect my life in anyway so i hope it works as well for them as O/our way does for U/us. After all, isn't that what it's all about? ....slave luci

hmmmm well for the record DProp never that i have seen claims to be any of these things, i just like to embarass her [in a friendly way] because i admire her devotion to her slavery, and in MY eyes, yea shes pretty damn hardcore!!!!!

and on a side note, [please dont let me offend you here, just my opinion as well] IMO, you really, cannot claim, that "everyone has a line" and i assume, that they just havent found it yet. . . to me this statement is as frustrating as many find the "true slave" [which also for the record i DO believe in but dont judge people who do not meet my personal criteria for such - all a matter of preferences, as it should be].

to assume without a doubt that there IS a line somewhere it just needs to be located, to me says "well, you may claim this, but i am telling you, even though i do not know anything about you, you are wrong, regardless of the fact that it may be true"

even if this is ALL you have experienced [that no one is limitless] still does not make it true.

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to slaveluci)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

slaveluci,
you're right, the important thing is that everyone is in a relationship and situation which fits their needs or ideals and works best for them. if the rest of the world doesn't agree with it, phooey to them.
exactly

however in the OP, it seemed clear that the two people in the relationship have very different ideas and expectations as to what a D/s relationship meant,
how much control a Master should have, what limits should be in place, etc. and obviously that's a problem.
indeed........

now in my view, when a person has a need or desire to maintain control over significant aspects of their lives (career, family, etc.), retain personal limits, maintain ownership over the core of themselves (some refer to it as keeping a little piece of me), and basically at the bottom line ultimately hold the power in their hands, then that person is one who does not wish to be a slave
i would agree.  i don't maintain control over those aspects or set limits.  W/we are definitely in a TPE, M/s relationship though the OP and her partner are not and i'm not sure they want to be.  That's definitely in need of being discussed and determined, for sure.

of course as you mentioned, how you define slave and how i define it are likely very different, so there ya go.
i'm not so sure of that now.  i think the question of lines/limits is something we definitely have different views on, but i haven't disagreed with your definitions of "slave" or "abuse" at all.  Our definitions may indeed be quite similar. 
 
Thank you for being willing to be cordial while debating these things out.  It's been a joy thus far.........slave luci


_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to daddysprop247)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heydollface

Hello, I'm new to this side of the website but I've been thinking about the subject I'm about to write about lately and wanted some insight from people more experienced than myself.

So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused? I don't mean sexual limits, I mean in terms of personal decisions, your safety and the well being of your children and such. I understand that all relationships are different and there is no standard response or rule but if one gives control of themselves to another how are you supposed to tell where using that control blurs into abuse of power? If you think abuse is occurring or something is wrong how do YOU bring it up without being confrontationl or rude?

Take me for example. I am in a new relationshp at the moment. It is not new in terms of years and we have a child together. We started out with the D/s dynamic and slipped into more of a vanilla relationship overtime due to problems outside the relationship but we have decided that we choose to give this a try again. I can't tell whether sometimes my inability to give up control in certains areas of my life is because we are not well matched or because it is him abusing the power he has.  If me saying I can't do something is me essentially taking control or is this type of relationship basically a license to abuse and I should just suck it up?

In my opinion, outside the real of fantasy there are always going to be things you cannot do but does this mean because one cannot give up all sense of character, personality and the right to not be in an abusive relationship that they are not submissive? I don't see why I should feel like I have failed when I try to draw the line between obediance and abuse.

I don't know if this is a problem of it being a new relationship or if it's just me trying to take too much control as I've been told I am doing. I am being made to feel that I should put up with any amount of abuse because he is Master and he says so but to me that is something I would see from some teenage boy who thinks having a submissive just means he's gonna get sex on tap 24 hours a day hehe. I'm sick of feeling bad because I'm retaining some sense of myself but I don't know if I really have a right to feel bad or if it's what I've signed on for.

Anyways, thanks for reading and some imput would be nice :)

PS: I am not looking for an analysis of my own relationship here although I have posted pertinent details. None of you can know what I am talking about when I wrte about personal decisions etc. I'm just looking for a general consensus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
and on a side note, [please dont let me offend you here, just my opinion as well] IMO, you really, cannot claim, that "everyone has a line" and i assume, that they just havent found it yet. . .
No offense taken.  i'm not "claiming" that per se, i'm just saying that's what i believe.  i really do believe that and i'm entitled to do so.  As i've already stated above, it's not my place to determine who has lines or not.  If anyone says they do not, only they really know.  i was simply just stating my thoughts on it.

to assume without a doubt that there IS a line somewhere it just needs to be located, to me says "well, you may claim this, but i am telling you, even though i do not know anything about you, you are wrong, regardless of the fact that it may be true"
yes, i see your point.  i'm not assuming that "without a doubt."  i've stated many times on these threads that making assumptions about others' relationships is not good.  Only they truly know how things are and why they are that way.  i certainly don't claim that no one exists who has "no limits" and i already stated that in a previous post. 

even if this is ALL you have experienced [that no one is limitless] still does not make it true.
how can i argue with that?   You are correct.  i certainly have never claimed i have "seen it all."  Anything is indeed possible.  There's so much to learn of................slave luci

quote:

So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused?