Where do you draw the line?

Where do you draw the line? (Full Version)

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heydollface -> Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 4:42:44 AM)
Hello, I'm new to this side of the website but I've been thinking about the subject I'm about to write about lately and wanted some insight from people more experienced than myself. So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused? I don't mean sexual limits, I mean in terms of personal decisions, your safety and the well being of your children and such. I understand that all relationships are different and there is no standard response or rule but if one gives control of themselves to another how are you supposed to tell where using that control blurs into abuse of power? If you think abuse is occurring or something is wrong how do YOU bring it up without being confrontationl or rude? Take me for example. I am in a new relationshp at the moment. It is not new in terms of years and we have a child together. We started out with the D/s dynamic and slipped into more of a vanilla relationship overtime due to problems outside the relationship but we have decided that we choose to give this a try again. I can't tell whether sometimes my inability to give up control in certains areas of my life is because we are not well matched or because it is him abusing the power he has. If me saying I can't do something is me essentially taking control or is this type of relationship basically a license to abuse and I should just suck it up? In my opinion, outside the real of fantasy there are always going to be things you cannot do but does this mean because one cannot give up all sense of character, personality and the right to not be in an abusive relationship that they are not submissive? I don't see why I should feel like I have failed when I try to draw the line between obediance and abuse. I don't know if this is a problem of it being a new relationship or if it's just me trying to take too much control as I've been told I am doing. I am being made to feel that I should put up with any amount of abuse because he is Master and he says so but to me that is something I would see from some teenage boy who thinks having a submissive just means he's gonna get sex on tap 24 hours a day hehe. I'm sick of feeling bad because I'm retaining some sense of myself but I don't know if I really have a right to feel bad or if it's what I've signed on for. Anyways, thanks for reading and some imput would be nice :) PS: I am not looking for an analysis of my own relationship here although I have posted pertinent details. None of you can know what I am talking about when I wrte about personal decisions etc. I'm just looking for a general consensus

jauntyone -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 4:49:10 AM)
quote: So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused? Greetings I am going to focus only on what you said here. The line is drawn exactly where you and your partner draw it. Going into any relationship; no matter what kind it may be; two people lay down the foundations and the boundaries. Only you and your partner can decide what those boundaries are going to be. I wish you well melissa

marieToo -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 4:51:18 AM)
Hi---I would be very curious about what you consider abuse, but its besides the point, as everyone's definition of abuse will vary. As a base rule without knowing specific detail, I would say that anything YOU see as abuse is something you should not engage in.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 4:51:28 AM)
Sounds to me as if he is trying to make you into the perfect mindless drone slave that he reads about in the BDSM fantasy stories. Not everyone functions that way. It isnt exactly abuse of power, its just an expectation mismatch. You arent the extreme sub he wants, and he isnt the subtly powerful Dom you want. It sounds to me, at least, as if you two make a better vanilla couple than you ever will a D/s one. If you are not comfortable giving up everything, then thats not for you. Not all of us expect our subs or slaves to give up their personalities, their free wills and their entire selves to obey blindly. Some do like that, but they have to be with a sub or slave who desires that fr it to work. Forcing a more strong willed sub inot a position like that wont work for long, and the discontent on both sides will cause a melt down. If you bring it up, be confrontational. Nothing wrong with confronting, as long as you dont make it a personal attack. You need to tell him that what he wants is not what you want. And there is no "I am Master thats why" argument. If thats the only thing he can throw back at you, then there is no chance. You need him to at the very least scale back, and work into the M/s relationship slowly. Maybe over time you can give more up to him, but for now you arent wiling or able to drop everything and be happy that way. Explain to him how it makes you feel, and how you view it. If he cant accept that there are comproises that need to be made, then you have to consider either going back to your vanila relationship or ending it completely. My opinion of course, DV

Celeste43 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 4:54:51 AM)
If you don't feel that he handles the responsibilities that come with being the dominant well, then don't submit. Your first priority is your own welfare and that of your child. IMO a good dominant does not demand that he gets his own wants met at the expense of the other people in the relationship. If you feel he's being abusive, or uncaring of you and your child, then I would advise you not to submit. His actions should show you that he merits your trust, if his actions make you less trusting, then submitting sounds like a bad idea. There are very few people in this world that I could submit to. I'm judgmental as hell and I have a checklist in my head of what it takes. If they can't control their own life, they don't deserve to control mine. If they don't measure up to my ideas of a good parent, they aren't going to get any control over my family. If they're a slave to alcohol or drugs, then they can't have mastery over anyone else.

MstrssPassion -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 5:04:27 AM)
I got about half way through your post & stopped I don't need to know the details. The fact that you are viewing matters within your dynamic as abusive is an issue. "We" can't help you out with that one. What you need to do is talk all of this out with the one you share this relationship with. Maybe you two aren't ready to go 100% or full time. Maybe you should consider baby steps. All in all.. if you are blocking, you will become more & more hesitant & suspicious... & he will become more disenchanted & frustrated. Time for you two to set up some basic limits as well as simple goals. Often you have to step completely out before you can dip your big toe back in. Good luck

MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 5:08:43 AM)
Rule of thumb: if you are not absolutely loving D/s, don't do it. Submission is supposed to be a joy. Not something dragged unwillingly out of you. Your Dominant has to earn your trust, not bully you with criticism that "you take too much control". The fact that you have to ask us how you can be sure he will not abuse you tells me that you need to build more trust There are lots of techniques to help a submissive feel he or she will be safe from abuse. make sure your partner respects your safeword. I also give my partner the right to call a VDO (vanilla day off) any time he needs it. He has never asked for a VDO (or used his safeword) but he knows he can- and that helps him to trust me.

sillygirl09 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 5:16:24 AM)
I'm not sure if this answers any of your questions or not but... When I have been in D/s relationships the ones that were the best were with Doms who built me up and helped me to soar both in my submission and in my vanilla world. If I was questioning whether or not we had crossed a line into abuse I would no longer be calling that person Master. Good Luck!

heydollface -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 5:57:16 AM)
Thank you all ever so much for your replies. I understand that, as somebody wrote, you cannot help me so to speak but I do feel that drawing upon the experience of others is helpFUL in itself. As for what I consider abuse.. well I don't see that being a useful subject for me to expand on as it was the idea behind it that I was more interested in discussing. Thanks again.

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 6:33:54 AM)
D/s is a mutual thing. It goes both ways. Yours sounds very one sided and that doesn't work. Every relationship has boundaries, D/s is no different. These boundaries should have been made clear in the beginning. My pereception of abuse may be different than yours. You have to decide what is abuse to you. You shouldn't have to put up with abuse as you say. This relationship has to be consensual, he cannot take your submission. You have to be willing to give it to him.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 6:35:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heydollface So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused? I don't mean sexual limits, I mean in terms of personal decisions, your safety and the well being of your children and such. the term "limits" is not just used when speaking of things of a sexual nature. some submissives have housework as a limit. some limit what sort of personal decisions their Dominant will make for them(will they hold a job, go to school, wear a bra, etc.) quote: I understand that all relationships are different and there is no standard response or rule but if one gives control of themselves to another how are you supposed to tell where using that control blurs into abuse of power? If you think abuse is occurring or something is wrong how do YOU bring it up without being confrontationl or rude? if this slave felt that Master had gone over the line, she would open her mouth and politely communicate her concerns---communication does not necessitate confrontation or rudeness. quote: Take me for example. I am in a new relationshp at the moment. It is not new in terms of years and we have a child together. We started out with the D/s dynamic and slipped into more of a vanilla relationship overtime due to problems outside the relationship but we have decided that we choose to give this a try again. I can't tell whether sometimes my inability to give up control in certains areas of my life is because we are not well matched or because it is him abusing the power he has. If me saying I can't do something is me essentially taking control or is this type of relationship basically a license to abuse and I should just suck it up? there is no "type" of relationship that gives license to abuse. in this slave's opinion, one either consents to continue to be abused, once they feel they are, or they end the relationship. rarely, if ever, do abusers change, or even recognize that what they engage in with another is abuse.

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 7:21:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heydollface is this type of relationship basically a license to abuse and I should just suck it up? no and no. Though some use it as a license to abuse and others accept abuse as "domination," that does not make it acceptable. In my opinion, outside the real of fantasy there are always going to be things you cannot do but does this mean because one cannot give up all sense of character, personality and the right to not be in an abusive relationship that they are not submissive? If your partner expects you to give up all sense of character and personality why would you want to continue to be in the relationship? If Master didn't want my character and my personality, He should have chosen a different slave. He was fully aware of these characteristics when He chose me. As a matter of fact, they are WHY He chose me. As His slave, i have certain personality traits/aspects that He may desire to help me improve upon and habits W/we both desire He help me overcome, etc. i look to Him to provide learning and guidance BY EXAMPLE, which He does. Submitting/being owned by someone who doesn't hold himself to the standards he expects to hold me to was never an option. Hiding behind being "master" as an excuse to abuse and make unreasonable demands about things that have NOT been discussed and agreed upon, IMO, is simply not acceptable. Refusing to accept and like such behavior does not mean that you are not submissive. Don't believe that for a second. I don't see why I should feel like I have failed when I try to draw the line between obediance and abuse. You shouldn't feel that way at all. We all have a right to be free from abuse whether it be in a bdsm or vanilla relationship. to me that is something I would see from some teenage boy who thinks having a submissive just means he's gonna get sex on tap 24 hours a day They don't have to be teenage boys to succumb to this idiotic way of thinking, believe me. It afflicts some of them at any age. I don't know if I really have a right to feel bad or if it's what I've signed on for. You have a right to feel anyway you want to. What you feel is what you feel. It doesn't have to be approved by anyone else. As for what you "signed on for," only you and he know what that was. Sounds like there was virtually no discussion about what exactly you were expecting. Perhaps that's what needs to occur. You say you had tried it once and it didn't work so you decided to try it again. When you made this decision, was there any communication at all on exactly what you would be trying and how it would work? Sounds like there was not. Before i agreed to become Master's property, W/we talked endlessly about what W/we each felt that would entail. Only when it was obvious that W/we were agreeing to the same relationship, did W/we proceed. i know it just doesn't sound very hot and kinky to say that's how it began. In fantasy-land, i would have bowed, kissed His feet, begged Him to take me - an unworthy slut - and make me His slave forever, doing anything He chose to me at anytime and never caring what i felt about it [:'(]. Makes a hot novel, i suppose, but i wasn't about to give my life over to someone who felt that way. W/we weren't playing some fantasy game, W/we were very solemn and aware that, by Him becoming my Owner and Master, that W/we were making a serious, lifelong commitment. That requires much prior discussion. From the limited information that you provided, it sounds as if a good heart-to-heart discussion is needed to see just what he thinks it is you did "sign on for" and you can determine if that is indeed what you seek. Good luck and blessings...........slave luci

heydollface -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 7:36:58 AM)
Thank you all for the replies. They have been very helpful especially the ones talking about trust etc To me I suppose it IS more of an issue of trust. It's not like I am unwilling to do as he is asking but due to things that have happened the foundation of trust isn't anywhere near as strong as it needs to be and I can't seem to get him to understand that it is not that I am unwilling to do these things, it's that I can't find myself comfortable with them because of past experiences. So yes, the trust has to be worked on here. The abuse issue is not an issue of what he is asking of me but the way in which he is responding to me when I can't do as asked - like I am am bad for having feelings not consistent with what he wants that are significant enough for me not to ignore as well as telling me how he's missing out on others because he's "giving me a chance". It's just destroying what trust there is and I can't see anyway of resolving this since there is a lack of communication. Anyway, thanks for the advice. Some very insightful and useful replies there :)

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 7:45:43 AM)
Who is making you feel that way? Quite often slaves are perfectionists who feel they have failed when in fact they have only been corrected and are frustrated with themselves and the system. Not to say doms don't use guilt and shame to make a sub behave when they don't have the skills otherwise. Quite simply, if your choice comes from a place of security and makes you feel overall more fulfilled and enjoying who you are as a person, then it's good. If the choice comes from a place of insecurity and makes you less overall fulfilled and less of who you are, then there's a serious problem. At any rate, slave or not, you both need to work together on the issues, you both need to sit down, define what's wrong and choose to change things so that everyone can be happy. http://www.collarchat.com/m_130087/mpage_1/key_sadist%252Cabuse/tm.htm#130087 What is a sadist? http://www.collarchat.com/m_308357/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#308357 Training and abuse http://www.collarchat.com/m_255676/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#255676 Defining Domination v Abuse http://www.collarchat.com/m_224182/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#224182 Ms/Ds is it a license to abuse? http://www.collarchat.com/m_177013/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#177013 Discipline or abuse? http://www.collarchat.com/m_142096/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#142096 Abuse vs discipline http://www.collarchat.com/m_131849/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#131849 Abuse disguised as dominance http://www.collarchat.com/m_123045/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#123045 Overuse of "Abuse" http://www.collarchat.com/m_47262/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#47262 Physical Abuse of a slave http://www.collarchat.com/m_41029/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#41029 SM vs Abuse http://www.collarchat.com/m_1874/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#1874 BDSM versus Abuse

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 7:48:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heydollface as well as telling me how he's missing out on others because he's "giving me a chance". There's a lot going on here and you need more than what a forum can provide, you should both go to counseling if he is, in fact, saying these things and seriously meaning them. He shouldn't feel trapped in a relationship and he shouldn't guilt you into it- especially as the father himself. He's not just "giving his child a chance" is he? Go get help, both of you.

vield -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 8:18:17 AM)
The quick and easy answer is that you draw the line wherevever you choose, wherever you feel uncomfortable or feel a lack of trust. There is a LOT more to think about though. Yes many folks have given you good thoughtful responses. I would like to suggest what could be a central part of the problem. Of course I may not be correct. A lot of people of any gender or power level who have gotten much of their BD/SM thoughts from porn books and such have an idea about "breaking" a submissive. They feel that a dominant ought to dehumanize, isolate and break down the submissive until the sub is mindlessly following the dom's orders in anything. The theory is that when the sub is totally "broken", the dom will build him or her back up and teach them to be the sub of his or her dreams. The thought is a lot like old style Marine boot camp from before World War 2. However usually the people involved do not have the time, the skills or the patience to do this. Sooo, the dom has broken the sub to act as a kind if mindless critter. In the process ALL the cool things about that sub's mind and personality that originally attracted the "dom" are gone. Guess what? the dom (usually male but not always) now is very bored with this creation. The sub is found guilty of "not being good enough" or any number of things, and is released or even just discarded. Then the "dom" looks for a new toy, the other one really IS broken. The sub is very alone, very hurt, very damaged, and lucky if he or she can carry on their own life in any sensible fashion. I have seen this sort of thing happen way too often. Many years back I have been treated somewhat like this and accepted it "because my dominant wanted it." I would suggest that no person who has responsibility for children has business allowing someone to take this degree of control over themself, no matter how "hot" the person is, or how much they crave deep submission. The safety and well being of one's kids needs first priority, and a mindless parent will need care themself. This aspect of control is never right to give up.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 9:30:11 AM)
hi dollface... here is one slave's take on it, for what it's worth: for some of us, there is no "line"...when we gave ourselves to our Master, it was with the understanding and acceptance of the fact that from that point forward we are his to do with what he wills, including "abuse" if that is his perogative. this also includes things like giving up your former sense of self, "me" time, personal limits, etc. and for us these things are very much reality, not dreamy fantasy. however not every submissive is cut out to be a slave, particularly a slave as i describe above. and nothing is wrong with that. from the little you describe of your relationship, it sounds like you two have very different desires and expectations for the D/s relationship. neither of you are wrong, just perhaps you may be wrong for each other, at least in a D/s sense. if you feel the need to hold on firmly to your sense of self, to maintain personal limits, to place boundaries on his power over you, then you are clearly saying you do not desire a slavery or TPE relationship, and perhaps only desire D/s to a very limited degree.

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 9:51:34 AM)
where do i draw the line - when a person decides to change me into someone i'm not ...when they decide physical abuse is the way to go in our relationship ...when they don't respect i'm a mother first and foremost before being their submissive ...when someone feels i fit better in a slave role rather than submissive - there are many instances/situations where i draw the line however i don't have to draw the line with Daddy. He knows i'm an individual ...a person with goals and opinions ...unique and special to Him - being a submissive is merely a title to me. He doesn't want to change a single thing about me merely molding and shaping me into a better woman than when we first met.

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:01:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 for some of us, there is no "line"...when we gave ourselves to our Master, it was with the understanding and acceptance of the fact that from that point forward we are his to do with what he wills, including "abuse" if that is his perogative. this also includes things like giving up your former sense of self, "me" time, personal limits, etc. and for us these things are very much reality, not dreamy fantasy. i've heard this type of statement many, many times and still do not completely believe it. Everyone has a line. It may not be much of one as far as what you won't accept or tolerate but everyone does have one. i am a slave just as surely as you are and when i became such i understood and accepted that i was to always do His will. This did not include agreeing to "abuse." i suppose we each have our definition of just what abuse is. After years spent in a very abusive vanilla marriage, i had no desire to become owned by yet another abuser. i was able to become Master's slave/property because i felt as sure as i could that (what i considered) abuse would never happen in O/our relationship. The examples you provided of giving up your former sense of self, and giving up "me" time and having your former personal limits changed/pushed are certainly not abusive in my definition of the word. Submitting to Master in every way short of abuse is my reality as well and not a "dreamy fantasy." What i referred to as "fantasy" for U/us involved blindly entering into an M/s relationship in which both O/our needs, desires, limits, etc. were never fully discussed beforehand. Obviously all those things grow and change over time but the willingness to once again accept abuse - for me that will never happen. i know there are those who would argue that, as a slave, one HAS no needs, desires or limits and i say to that what i said above: heard it over and over and still don't buy it. That by no means indicates that i am not "cut out" to be a slave and a wonderful one at that. then you are clearly saying you do not desire a slavery or TPE relationship, and perhaps only desire D/s to a very limited degree To me, having any type of boundary or limit does not mean that one doesn't desire slavery or a TPE relationship and only wants a very limited D/s relationship. i am a slave in a TPE relationship and i don't go about setting limits and boundaries on many things. But i DO set a limit/boundary at accepting abuse, it's as simple as that. i think so many people have this idea that they just can't be a good submissive or slave if they have ANY type of boundary or limit at all and to me that's a sad thing because in actuality, i just don't believe that really exists.........slave luci

daddysprop247 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:13:11 AM)
slaveluci, i did not define abuse in my previous post. the other things i mentioned (no "me" time, limits, etc.) were just examples of things one gives up (including the "right" to not be abused) when entering into a certain type of M/s relationship. i define abuse as intentional ill treatment, severe neglect, intentional mental, emotional or physical damage. and there are certainly M/s unions where it's understood that all of the above is within the Owner's rights. as far as your belief that everyone has a line, i am certain that there is nothing anyone could ever tell or show you that would make you feel differently, all i can say is that that is simply untrue. as far as a slave having no needs, that would be ridiculous...every living being has needs. however a slave may lose their right to have their needs met or addressed.

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