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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 10:27:40 PM   
outlier


Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		This is a military decision to insure peace?  If the movie is
accurate then General Patton had something to say about it.

quote:

Paraphrase:  George C Scott as Patton,
When Hannibal crossed the Alps on elephants he proved
fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
If anything made by God can be overcome, so can anything
made by man.


Of course Patton did not have Bush as his commander-in-chief.
If he did Bush could explain to him as he did to General Colin Powell
what a great idea this whole thing has been from the beginning.

Now how long do you think we will have to wait to learn how
much it is going to cost per inch, on a no bid contract, given to
one of Chaney's friends?

Outlier


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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 10:36:54 PM   
BrutalDemon


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar


lmao Berlin was the first thing that came to mind

minnetar



Belfast was my first thought... and I'm not exactly going out on a limb by predicting the Baghdad Wall will be no more effective at preventing sectarian violence than when they tried it in Belfast.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 10:56:32 PM   
N4SDChastity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ich bein eine Berliner?



Jelly dohnuts!  Mmmmmm... ~(_8^(|)

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 11:03:24 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

This is a military decision to insure peace?  If the movie is
accurate then General Patton had something to say about it.

quote:

Paraphrase:  George C Scott as Patton,
When Hannibal crossed the Alps on elephants he proved
fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
If anything made by God can be overcome, so can anything
made by man.


Of course Patton did not have Bush as his commander-in-chief.
If he did Bush could explain to him as he did to General Colin Powell
what a great idea this whole thing has been from the beginning.

Now how long do you think we will have to wait to learn how
much it is going to cost per inch, on a no bid contract, given to
one of Chaney's friends?

Outlier



If Patton was alive today, the liberals and peace activists would be demanding he be arrested and tried for war crimes. Patton would have shot and killed guys like Al-Sadr and any other idiot in that hell-hole country that raised a militia for the sole purpose of killing innocent people. Why Al-Sadr is still breathing is beyond my understanding. It is a show of how dumb and pacified the Pentagon has become.

The war would also have been won and over with several years ago if Patton was alive.

Same goes for FDR. He put Japanese-American citizens in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor. He ordered executions of caputred Nazi spies. Gitmo is a country club compared to what America did in the past to its enemies.
It's a good thing we didn't have this dumb mentality of "winning the hearts and minds" back during WWII. This message board would be in German. We won WWII because we killed the radical leaders. We caputred and executed Nazi leaders. We demanded that the Japanese forfeit their emperor. In Iraq today, we are terrified of killing anybody because of pacifists around the world would be horrified. So we allow all these radical leaders to live and gain more and more power.

This strategy defies common sense.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 11:16:41 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

This is a military decision to insure peace?  If the movie is
accurate then General Patton had something to say about it.

quote:

Paraphrase:  George C Scott as Patton,
When Hannibal crossed the Alps on elephants he proved
fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
If anything made by God can be overcome, so can anything
made by man.



If you did apply this quote to this situation, it would mean that, if America relied on the wall and the wall alone to stop a terrorist from blowing up a building on the other side, it would be stupid.

This quote cites how Hannibal how to cross the Alps on elephants to get around them.  It acknowledges the fact that the fortications were a good deterent but makes the point that they weren't enough to completely stop a determined individual and his army.

To play devil's advocate with you, I would suggest that this quote is in affirmation of the fact that the wall would actually be a good deterent in Iraq, drawing from the acknowledgements of the speaker, but that, while the wall will be a good deterent, there should also be a standing force available for those who can get around it, drawing from the cite of the fortified state Hannibal may have been able to defeat due to the lack of such a standing force.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 11:25:44 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Patton was a neat individual.  From my understanding of him, the world and its morality was rather black and white.  He commited a lot of evil- much of this is because he commited a lot.

The ideal liberal commits minimal evil.  This often means not acting greatly.
Patton wanted to create the greatest change towards good possible.  If he could kill all of the would-be murders in the world, but he had to butcher and mutilate a million kittens to do it, he'd have amassed an army of 50,000 soldiers and have them each butcher and mutilate 20 kittens each before sun down.

He reminds of me some short story I read back in highschool, "The Ones who Walked Away from Omolos" (not sure how to spell "O-moe-loss", or was it "O-meh-loss"?).  Anyhow, the entire town, the society, was perfect- parades, everyone was happy, health was great, there were no problems or anything to speak of.  Save one.  There was a miserable, neglected child living in misery in a closet, never allowed to know happiness.  The happiness of the society depended on the misery and neglect of this child.  The title refers to those who left town after coming of age and being shown the secret of the child's cruel imprissionment.  Unable to live with the guilt of their happiness being dependent on the suffering of another, they leave the town.
Patton is the sort of individual who would (though not to this exagerated extreme) be in that room with the child, torturing it just to see the society outside flourish.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/22/2007 11:36:03 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		So now the government is  going to spend money building walls. The idea is to keep those who have conflict apart. While it's a nice thought, it won't work. Terrorists leveled the world trade center. What makes the government think they won't destroy the walls? Anyone want to guess how long these walls will remain standing before they're blown up?

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 12:08:15 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Same goes for FDR. He put Japanese-American citizens in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor. He ordered executions of caputred Nazi spies. Gitmo is a country club compared to what America did in the past to its enemies.
It's a good thing we didn't have this dumb mentality of "winning the hearts and minds" back during WWII. This message board would be in German. We won WWII because we killed the radical leaders. We caputred and executed Nazi leaders. We demanded that the Japanese forfeit their emperor. In Iraq today, we are terrified of killing anybody because of pacifists around the world would be horrified. So we allow all these radical leaders to live and gain more and more power.



You didn't win WWII, you were on the winning side and fought with allies without which you wouldn't have won. The Japanese and Germans also alienated all their potential allies by treating them as you say Paton would have treated them. Also, WWII was total war, Iraq is about......hell, who really knows what Iraq is about. Regime change, oil, imposing democracy? If the US wins through slaughter, you will alienate so many nations it would be deterimental to the US. Russia and China would then be more likely to support Iran in its claim to have a right to nuclear weapons. Then there is the financial consequences of nations unwilling to trust their money in the US. The US has got itself in this mess in Iraq because the Bush administration thought violence can solve problems. It's beyond me why so many Americans think solving problems is suimply a matter of killing enough people.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 12:17:25 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So now the government is  going to spend money building walls. The idea is to keep those who have conflict apart. While it's a nice thought, it won't work. Terrorists leveled the world trade center. What makes the government think they won't destroy the walls? Anyone want to guess how long these walls will remain standing before they're blown up?


If the situation in Iraq is so bad that terrorists will have adequate supplies, manpower, and time to blow up an entire wall, why is the city still standing?

The wall would likely be monitered.  Those who try to blow up a piece will have to reveal themselves (or, as in the fashion of many, commit suicide).  This would allow them to be caught (or dead) and the hole (should it be a surficient blast to make a hole in such a wall) be guarded.

The wall is a deterent that would be monitered, not something left there as an ultimate solution.

Mind you, I'm not for or against this idea, I'm still considering it.  Just.. invalid reasons to disregard the idea are, well, invalid.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 12:17:40 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		General reply - This just showed up on Yahoo!
 
"Construction on Baghdad barrier halted"


By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writer
7 minutes ago
 
'CAIRO, Egypt -  Iraq's prime minister said Sunday that he has ordered a halt to the U.S. military construction of a barrier separating a Sunni enclave from surrounding Shiite areas in Baghdad after fierce criticism over the project at home.
 
The challenge to the U.S. initiative came as Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki began a regional tour to shore up support from mostly Sunni Arab nations for his Shiite-dominated government as sectarian violence persists despite a nearly 10-week-old security crackdown."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070423/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_neighborhood_barrier

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 12:22:19 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Edit:  Strike this post.  I'm just too tired.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 4/23/2007 12:25:17 AM >

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 12:53:59 AM   
TYuTYTE


Posts: 3
Joined: 7/13/2005
Status: offline 		Read it and weep folks.........................................


Friday, April 20, 2007 

U.S. Erects 'Baghdad Wall' to Keep Sects Apart

Once upon a time there was the Berlin Wall which separated the West and the Soviet Bloc nations. Today, the United States Military is constructing a three mile wall in Baghdad.

U.S. soldiers with the 82nd Airborne Division in Baghdad are “building a three-mile protective wall on the dividing line between a Sunni enclave and the surrounding Shiite neighborhood,” according to a U.S. military press release issued Wednesday.

Troops with the 407th Brigade Support Battalion began constructing the wall on April 10 and will continue work “almost nightly until the wall is complete,” the release read.

-New York Times
-Stars & Stripes

They have been building this wall for 2 weeks and we just got the word?  
Needless to say, it is evident now that much of the violence is being purpotrated by members of the Baghdad Police force and Iraqi army.

< Message edited by TYuTYTE -- 4/23/2007 1:01:06 AM >

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 1:10:34 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

i always wonder with fences- if i am fenced in, or fenced out. 


This is a good point.

The wall is there to prevent incursions into one population by another. But a wall is also handy for enclosing a population, prison-style.

Can anyone say "siege"? How about "ghetto"? 'Cause once we're out........

E

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 10:04:46 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This strategy defies common sense.



While I tend to agree with the rest of what you wrote, cyberdude611, I did feel the need to point out
that the strategy to invade Iraq in the first place also defies common sense.

Sinergy

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 10:43:59 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		It may work however. When Israel built their fence, the amount of terrorism declined dramatically.

Also the military says this is only a temporary solution to one single problem neighborhood and not a policy to be spread to the rest of the country.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 3:36:40 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline 		If you build it, THEY will come...







...to tear it down, blow it up, create mayhem and confusion, and generally mock you

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 4:16:30 PM   
deadbluebird


Posts: 265
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Status: offline 		http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/23/iraq.main/index.html

they don't even want it.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 4:22:16 PM   
His1kitten


Posts: 53
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline 		Like with everything else, it doesn't matter what they want. 


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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 4:29:06 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		And we can't get Bush to build a wall along the Mexican border and it's already been approved by the Congress.
It just hasn't been funded yet because Bush's war in Iraq is sucking up all of OUR money.
I knew that this was going to become another Vietnam.

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RE: Did I hear correctly? A WALL? - 4/23/2007 5:02:38 PM   
outlier


Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
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quote:

CuriousLord: Quote:

Mind you, I'm not for or against this idea, I'm still considering it.  Just.. invalid reasons to disregard the idea are, well, invalid.


CuriousLord,

My problem with your attack on my argument is that I do not
understand your use of the word "invalid" 

As I recall from my logic classes the term "valid" was a term
used to describe an argument whose structure met certain
strict demonstrable criteria.  And the validity of an argument
was and is a separate issue from the truth or falsity of either
the premises or the conclusion. 

In fact the content of an argument was totally separate from
the validity of it.  This is why we spent hours symbolizing
arguments and then analyzing the form for validity.  In fact
it was a joke in the philosophy department that; "Logicians
don't know what they are talking about, and don't care."

So I would like you to explain to me how and where my
initial argument is "invalid".   Because I don't think that it is.
But I am always willing to learn.

Outlier

_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

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