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RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 7:07:50 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Just because you are a slave, does not mean that the safeword you use is not 'yours'.

Also, just because you are submissive, if you identify as an owned submissive, the safe word isnt always going to be yours - that decision is up to the Dominant you have surrendered to.

I don't use safewords, because I have no need for them. As for the OP... I would suggest that usage of a safeword by a submissve/slave/bottom, would place the control into the hands of the sub.slave/bottom, and therefore be inappropriate. The Dominant should understand their submissive/slave/bottom first before issuing any such punishments, otherwise you would be placing the sub.slave/bottom into danger.

Peace

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to wetsub000)

Post #: 21

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 7:11:02 AM

MHOO314

Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

Our rules are safe, sane and consensual-- just because you are being punished is IMHO no excuse for infliction of things beyond negotiated limits-- as One who mentors subs, I preach and preach safe words--your safe word is just that-- a safe word---- to be used!

edited for color

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 22

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 7:22:02 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

If my safeword was ignored because I was being punished then it would be a deal breaker for me. Just as if I was the sort of sub to be using her safeword inappropriately I would expect it to be a deal breaker for the Dom/me.

That is completely logical.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to wetsub000)

Post #: 23

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 7:31:27 AM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I don't use safewords, because I have no need for them. As for the OP... I would suggest that usage of a safeword by a submissve/slave/bottom, would place the control into the hands of the sub.slave/bottom, and therefore be inappropriate. The Dominant should understand their submissive/slave/bottom first before issuing any such punishments, otherwise you would be placing the sub.slave/bottom into danger.

But angel, Demon knows and understands you. I can why in your relationship with him, you don't need one. Not everyone has reached this level.

When I'm in the car with my boy, I know he is an excellent driver. I probably don't need a safety belt neither.

But what if? Accidents happen. That is really what the safeword is about.

I agree wholeheartedly with EmeraldSlave2 when she says:

quote:

I personally find that unless it's a role playing scene, just SAYING what's wrong rather than safewording leads to more complete and open communication.

On the other hand, a safeword is a simple cue, like "stop" that ends things quickly and then discussion can start. It doesn't matter how it is organised so much as there is a system in place whereby if someone is in danger, in harm's way, that they can send a signal, whether it be "I believe that the restraints around my ankles are coming loose Miss and I fear I may fall on my head" or "Red!" -- followed by me stopping whatever I'm doing and saying "What's wrong?".

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 24

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 12:47:29 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Oh M'Lady A I completely understand. I wasn't meaning to sound as though it is a rule I thought applied to everyone. If it sounded that way, then It was not the intention, please forgive me. Thank You for pointing out my error in typing.

I was only stating my situation and that I do not use one. I totally understand not all have reached that level yet, I was just saying from my view.

I do still stand by the thought however, that if safewords are used in a relationship, then a sub/slave/bottom using such during punishments seems a bit (tries thinking of a word to use) 'pointless'? (Not sure if that is the best word to use) But it seems to defeat the point if a safeword was used?

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 25

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 4/30/2005 4:59:06 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Oh M'Lady A I completely understand. I wasn't meaning to sound as though it is a rule I thought applied to everyone. If it sounded that way, then It was not the intention, please forgive me. Thank You for pointing out my error in typing.

I was only stating my situation and that I do not use one. I totally understand not all have reached that level yet, I was just saying from my view.

I didn't think that you meant this as a rule applied to everyone. I was simply springboarding off of your post to show applicable situations. Now it's my turn to apologize if you felt I was picking on you :) I think "we be cool" angel :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I do still stand by the thought however, that if safewords are used in a relationship, then a sub/slave/bottom using such during punishments seems a bit (tries thinking of a word to use) 'pointless'? (Not sure if that is the best word to use) But it seems to defeat the point if a safeword was used?

Peace and Love

I agree 100%. I guess what I'm saying is that a submissive *can* use a safeword during a punishment scene or real punishment or whatever. I will stop. But if afterwards I come to the conclusion that the submissive safeword because s/he wanted to change her/his fate rather then out of a safety issue, then as I said earlier, this would be a deal breaker, i.e.: I would re-evaluate, if not end, my association with this submissive.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 26

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 2:01:00 AM

ElektraUkM

Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

On the other hand, a safeword is a simple cue, like "stop" that ends things quickly and then discussion can start. It doesn't matter how it is organised so much as there is a system in place whereby if someone is in danger, in harm's way, that they can send a signal, whether it be "I believe that the restraints around my ankles are coming loose Miss and I fear I may fall on my head" or "Red!" -- followed by me stopping whatever I'm doing and saying "What's wrong?".

- LA

So if a safeword is interchangeable with 'stop' or 'i believe the restraints... ' etc... why not just say that, rather than having a particular word?

I'm just going back to my point that if this lifestyle puts so much stock by honest communication, isn't it more honest to say what you mean at the time?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here!

~ Elektra

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 27

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 5:43:58 AM

Oumae

Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

On the other hand, a safeword is a simple cue, like "stop" that ends things quickly and then discussion can start. It doesn't matter how it is organised so much as there is a system in place whereby if someone is in danger, in harm's way, that they can send a signal, whether it be "I believe that the restraints around my ankles are coming loose Miss and I fear I may fall on my head" or "Red!" -- followed by me stopping whatever I'm doing and saying "What's wrong?".

- LA

So if a safeword is interchangeable with 'stop' or 'i believe the restraints... ' etc... why not just say that, rather than having a particular word?

I'm just going back to my point that if this lifestyle puts so much stock by honest communication, isn't it more honest to say what you mean at the time?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here!

~ Elektra

If I am playing with someone I am quite happy for them to say they have pins and needles or a cramp etc. if it came to that and I think many Dom/mes would read the body language of the sub...

but

safe words do have their place....

If new to playing with someone you might not know their body language well or in roleplay it might be part of the scene to say "no", "please don't" "stop" etc etc and then if a set word has been picked that wouldnt normally be said its easily heard as " I really mean stop"

Oumae

< Message edited by Oumae -- 5/1/2005 5:45:42 AM >

_____________________________

Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 28

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 5:53:25 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM
So if a safeword is interchangeable with 'stop' or 'i believe the restraints... ' etc... why not just say that, rather than having a particular word?

I'm just going back to my point that if this lifestyle puts so much stock by honest communication, isn't it more honest to say what you mean at the time?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here!

~ Elektra

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all lived the ideal? No seriously...

A safeword is like crying help. Have you ever been in a situation where you cried "Help!" because everything attached to that word is - something is wrong and I need assistance. There are times when something is wrong but you can't even explain it because you are overwhelmed by the events. But this one word communicates that something is wrong.

I don't see giving someone a safeword as hindering communication. It should be a first step. I see not following up on why someone safeworded to hinder communication. It would be amazing if everyone would feel 100% comfortable with communicating. However, not everyone is. Yes, we should strive for open communication.

So in the end, if you find safewords as a hindrance to communication, then don't use them. Insist on complete elaborate explanations. For those who want to give someone an option, then let them have their safeword. What does it change in your reality?

To be honest, I give all new partners a safeword in the beginning. I tell them it's a last resort as I would prefer them to simply tell me if something is wrong. I've only once had a submissive use a safeword and that was because he was trying to get out of something he didn't like. That was the last time we saw each other.

- LA

<edited to make sense ;)>

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/1/2005 5:54:57 AM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 29

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 6:19:06 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

I'm just going back to my point that if this lifestyle puts so much stock by honest communication, isn't it more honest to say what you mean at the time?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here!

It is about communication... honest communication but their are times during a specific scene when the word stop, just isn't appropriate.

When we are children, we are conditioned to say certain words. It's something that comes naturally - like 'help', 'stop', 'yes', 'no'... etc.

When in a scene, the senses are heightened, and at times, a trance like state can occur because of the stimuli present.
Also in some scenes (for those who enjoy say - consensual forced sex play as an example) - the word 'No' might be used within the scene, but to mix that with a real 'no' would be confusing to the Dominant.
I have said the word 'no' when not meaning stop... I have cried out 'yes', even when yes isn't realitive to the situation... so using a safeowrd like 'red' is an easy simple option and doesn't mean less communication, but better communication - because Your Dominant and Yourself have taken a word that would not normally be mentioned within a scene and made it mean something unique to you both that you will both understand.

I am not sure if I am making myself sound clear or confusing...lol...

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 30

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 6:32:40 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Didn't feel picked on M'Lady, because I see Your words are full of wisdom and You are one of honour.

(doesn't wish to sound crawly - just stating facts)

quote:

:) I think "we be cool" angel :)

Is humbled by this - thank you M'Lady

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 31

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 6:45:09 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Didn't feel picked on M'Lady, because I see Your words are full of wisdom and You are one of honour.

Thanks angel. The admiration is mutual.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 32

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 1:04:08 PM

proudsub

Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

This is a general reply, not directed at Angel.
When Hubby and i first started play involving pain He had no idea how much i could take because we had never done this together before. I explained to Him about safewords and i used it a few times. Now that He knows what i can tolerate and what i enjoy i haven't used it for maybe 9 months or so. Neither He or my first dom has ever physically punished me so i'm not sure about using one for that, but i think it should be available to prevent abuse for those who might need it.

< Message edited by proudsub -- 5/1/2005 1:05:07 PM >

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 33

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/1/2005 4:23:48 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM
So if a safeword is interchangeable with 'stop' or 'i believe the restraints... ' etc... why not just say that, rather than having a particular word?

I'm just going back to my point that if this lifestyle puts so much stock by honest communication, isn't it more honest to say what you mean at the time?

Sorry if I'm completely missing the point here!

~ Elektra

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all lived the ideal? No seriously...

A safeword is like crying help. Have you ever been in a situation where you cried "Help!" because everything attached to that word is - something is wrong and I need assistance. There are times when something is wrong but you can't even explain it because you are overwhelmed by the events. But this one word communicates that something is wrong.

I am not one to use safewords lightly. As a matter of fact I think I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually used one.....and certainly never used one to "get out of a punishment that was a bit more intense than my liking". I have used them when something has gone terribly wrong...be it physical or emotional.

Now when I say safeword, that does not necessarily mean a specific pre-negotiated word. Although of course that would be the most desired way to express oneself, as LadyA pointed out there are times when you can not explain it because you are literally overwhelmed by the events leading up to it. Sometimes there are events that happen and that safeword just does not pop into your head. Not to mention the times when one is in space and just does not have the ability to safeword.

One example of this was a time when I accidently moved in such a way that I popped out the small hernia that I have just below my rib cage. INTENSE PAIN! My safeword turned out to be Oh Fuck!...Oh Fuck! in a very high shrill voice. The tone in my voice communicated very effectively to the Dominant that something was terribly wrong. Another time my safeword actually turned out to be SIR! SIR! SIRRRRRR! Again.....my tone reflected the intensity of the situation.

Safewords are no replacement for a Dominant who is actively and intensely reading his submissive's reactions.

Back to the OP's original question. Yes, a person should be able to safeword, even during punishment.....but not because they want to get out of said punishment. It should still be a viable way to communicate that something is really wrong.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 34

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/2/2005 2:27:07 AM

ElektraUkM

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Joined: 2/19/2005
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Thanks dark~angel and Lady Angelika for explaining ways in which safe words can be used (in play, in beginning relationships, and so on) which I do understand.

I was just wondering out loud, I suppose, about the 'ideal' (as you put it, LA :) ) of perfection with a Master who could be trusted totally. Maybe that's just my naivety or something, or my idealism or something. I suppose it reflects the fact that Master is a lot more experienced than I am, and I do feel that he knows more about when something is going to do damage than I do... not sure I'd ever use a safe word even if i had one... I'd worry that I was taking control with it! Argh.. hope I'm not arguing my way round to the beginning again (that's so usual with me!)

Anyway, thanks again :)

~ Elektra

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 35

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/2/2005 2:33:46 AM

ElektraUkM

Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Now when I say safeword, that does not necessarily mean a specific pre-negotiated word. Although of course that would be the most desired way to express oneself, as LadyA pointed out there are times when you can not explain it because you are literally overwhelmed by the events leading up to it. Sometimes there are events that happen and that safeword just does not pop into your head. Not to mention the times when one is in space and just does not have the ability to safeword.

One example of this was a time when I accidently moved in such a way that I popped out the small hernia that I have just below my rib cage. INTENSE PAIN! My safeword turned out to be Oh Fuck!...Oh Fuck! in a very high shrill voice. The tone in my voice communicated very effectively to the Dominant that something was terribly wrong. Another time my safeword actually turned out to be SIR! SIR! SIRRRRRR! Again.....my tone reflected the intensity of the situation.

Safewords are no replacement for a Dominant who is actively and intensely reading his submissive's reactions.

Ah yes... only just read this reply... and this is what I was trying to communicate! The 'safeword' actually being a 'real' reaction to the situation... rather than a pre-arranged word. I'd argue that this isn't really a safeword, but just communication in the moment which any (?) dom would pick up on as a serious problem happening...?

~ Elektra

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 36

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/2/2005 3:22:33 AM

Oumae

Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

Thanks dark~angel and Lady Angelika for explaining ways in which safe words can be used (in play, in beginning relationships, and so on) which I do understand.

I was just wondering out loud, I suppose, about the 'ideal' (as you put it, LA :) ) of perfection with a Master who could be trusted totally. Maybe that's just my naivety or something, or my idealism or something. I suppose it reflects the fact that Master is a lot more experienced than I am, and I do feel that he knows more about when something is going to do damage than I do... not sure I'd ever use a safe word even if i had one... I'd worry that I was taking control with it! Argh.. hope I'm not arguing my way round to the beginning again (that's so usual with me!)

Anyway, thanks again :)

~ Elektra

I'll give my opinion/view on this even tho' they sometimes seem to be invisible

lol

Try not to think of safewords as being control but as being a form of communication.
When playing with someone new I prefer there to be a safeword and will sometimes push them close to it and explain about using it to communicate to me so I learn about them and they learn about me.
Some of the things I learn are that they will communicate honestly and that they feel comfortable doing so, I learn their tolerance levels tho' body language does tell this too and I learn if something sets off a trigger in them.
They learn that I will respect their safety and that I do care and that I am open to communication.
I will always listen to a safe word and stop but I then can decide if it was used properely or not thus I still have the control.

Oumae

< Message edited by Oumae -- 5/2/2005 3:24:11 AM >

_____________________________

Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 37

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/2/2005 6:27:21 AM

Chilli

Posts: 42
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

Ive never had the need to safe word during punishment, but came close a couple of times in play.

(in reply to Oumae)

Post #: 38

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/2/2005 7:41:28 PM

ansfrid

Posts: 24
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline

A safeword that is willfully ignored, is grounds for legal abuse charges. Everyone participating in anything from a scene, to an ongoing lifestyle, ultimately still does so of their own volition. That's the consensual part. Even in a 24/7 relationship, even in a punishment, even when there is hardship, the sub has consented to be subjected to it, the top has consented to apply it. The instant that concession ends, the power relationship itself has to end, or at least be suspended, or else we have entered actual rape, physical, or emotional abuse. Now a dedicated slave may have a loooong way to go before that concession is withdrawn, they may even *think* it will never need to withdrawn (though I don't believe there is truely such a thing as no limits whatsoever, much as that statement will get me disagreed with), and if it never is, and if the top never needs to stop, that's fine, all that matters is that the top is willing, and capable of stopping should it become critical they do so.

(in reply to Chilli)

Post #: 39

RE: Safewording During a Punishment - 5/4/2005 4:50:29 AM

GentleLady

Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

Some excellent posts here. ElektraUkM, mistoferin, LadyAngelika, Oumae, and dark~angel have covered all the times I believe safewords have a useful purpose as well as the relationships where they serve no purpose. Very enjoyable reading that makes Me think about when and why I use them.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to ansfrid)

Post #: 40

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