RE: prayer in schools

RE: prayer in schools (Full Version)

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forsakengrace -> RE: prayer in schools (4/24/2007 10:57:58 PM)
Well, on one hand I'm glad my topic is being debated ... On the other, I wish ya'll could do with a little more tact and reason and a little less immaturity and nonsense ... :) Honestly, I think a "moment of silence" is pointless. To give that moment of silence an actual purpose would be useful ... The question remains how best to do that without 'offending' anyone. This is where being PC becomes annoying to me. Prayer is such a broad term ... Or it can be, unless of course you're looking for something to be offended at. Christians and Muslims aren't the only people who pray. People who pray aren't always only speaking to "God" ... So, for me, to suggest a moment to pray is merely offering a purpose filled moment in time for everyone as a whole to direct themselves and their thoughts towards creating a more harmonious environment. Doesn't matter how they do that ... Pray to God, pray to a dead ancestor, meditate on self enlightment or just "think happy thoughts" ... But to merely suggest a moment of silence; I don't know. It just seems to lack that greater sense of purpose which would be the entire point in the first place.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 12:10:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury They are insulting me because they think I am going to be thankful for their prayers (putting me in the same boat as someone who believes in the supernatural - I find that insulting), and they are belittling themselves because they are admitting to believing in a higher being, in other words, suspending all the logic and the laws of the known universe. People should keep their religion to themselves, instead of cascading it over others. I hope that makes you understand another's point of view. It is important. My, this response is rather arrogant, don't you think? Remember that even as you feel so strongly about the rationality of having any faith based belief system, others are very comfortable to have that as a *part* of their lives. Who is being intolerant now? The difference between you and them is that while you are sneering and demeaning those people, they are probably praying for your eternal soul. Smile Have a nice day!

Satyr6406 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 12:30:23 AM)
Okay. I read up to page 2 (out of 4) before I posted this. A couple of people have mentioned "seperation of church and state". I wonder how people confuse a letter, written by Thomas Jefferson to one of his friends with the supreme law of the land? People, the only "protection" having anything to do with religion is protecting religion from government interference and preventing government from forcing a religion on us. No protection was ever enacted (officially) to keep religion out of our government. As a matter of fact, like it or not, the founding fathers set us up to be a "Judeo/Christian society". So, once again, "seperation of church and state" is NOT one of the rights guaranteed you by the first ten amendments but, nice try! Peace and comfort, Michael

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 1:01:27 AM)
I have not said people should not have religion as part of their lives. To many people, this is the crutch that they need to get through rather painful or boring lives, thinking to themselves that it is "all part of God's plan", and therefore their suffering now will be repaid by eternal happiness. Who am I to deny them this? If it makes them happy, then so be it. I don't remember saying anything about tolerance or intolerance. We have to be tolerant, even when we don't agree. But whilst I might admit that some people might need that crutch, there are dangers. A good topic for debate, I reckon, relates to Napoleon on his ascension to power. He encouraged catholicism, not because he believed in it, but he reasoned that he could keep better law and order in France by making the citizens fear god and fear eternal damnation if they sinned against the church. So he got the church on side. Was he right to do this? Did it make the tyrant safer? Did the end justify the means? Whilst it might be OK for individuals to seek solace in the search for eternal happiness, there is a massive problem when the number of people in this situation become a critical mass. Then, we start getting wars over whose religion is right, the Spanish Inquisition, USA as a superpower with "God on its side", and more recently, "we don't need do anything about climate change because that is in God's realm". When the wellbeing of the world is based on a faith in the supernatural, the consequences can get pretty nasty. Sorry for trying to put so much into a short note. But refusing to believe in miracles is not arrogance.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 1:47:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury They are insulting me because they think I am going to be thankful for their prayers (putting me in the same boat as someone who believes in the supernatural - I find that insulting), and they are belittling themselves because they are admitting to believing in a higher being, in other words, suspending all the logic and the laws of the known universe. People should keep their religion to themselves, instead of cascading it over others. I hope that makes you understand another's point of view. It is important. I will quote you once more, and perhaps you can see why I used the term "arrogance". Please note the bolded portions of your quote above. And, yes, most of it is bolded. You are assuming that people think you will be thankful, when I would posit that they may not even think about whether you are thankful or not. It is their way of showing support, and if they believe that their prayers, whatever that may entail, might effect something good for you, who are you to be insulted? And doesn't that seem like a big waste of energy to get that upset about something so minor? As already stated in this thread, take it however you wish. It is their way of sending out positive energy. But perhaps you do not believe in that either. You are being arrogant when you state that they are belittling themselves (not that you have the opinion, but that they are and this is a fact) with an admission of a belief in a higher being. You may have the *opinion* that they have suspended all the logic and the laws of the known universe, but you cannot know that they do not have a comfortable place for those logical laws which does not interfere with their ability to also have room for the unknowable. You are raising yourself up as more intelligent and the only one who is correct. You are the one belittling them. If you sneeze, and someone says "God bless you", do you think this means they are forcing their religion on you? How silly! I understand you point of view just fine. Various things will always touch our lives, whether we agree with them or not. Yes, you are showing as "intolerant". Meaning a complete lack of respect for someone else's view, or that they have a dignified right to that point of view. When they come to your house on Sunday morning and force you to go to their church and kneel down and "pray", write to Me. I will defend your right to not believe, even though I am of the *opinion* that you will be mighty sorry after you have closed your eyes for the final time! Wink

Satyr6406 -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 2:42:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury People should keep their religion to themselves, instead of cascading it over others. I think people should keep their hate for my right to practice religion as I see fit to themselves. You see, the one thing that the constitution does promise is is the right to practice (or not practice) as we see fit; not to constrain others from practicing. I had friends, in the service, that were devout atheists and when they got re-deployed and I got posted to Ft. Benning, I told them I'd pray for them and they said: "Thanks, I'll take all the help I can get." Someone on these boards has a quote which they attribute to Albert Camus (but, I believe he was quoting someone): "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and find out I am wrong than to live as if there is not a God and find out I am wrong." Peace and comfort, Michael

Viridana -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 2:45:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav in your opinion prayer is offensive. btw .....when i hear someone has troubles or a sick family member and say "i'll pray for you/them" i have never heard anyone say OMG i'm soooo offended. I know this woman who every time we met she had to include some religious notations like,"I'll pray for you", " God bless you", "May gods angels follow you", "Lord has given you so many gifts" etc etc. This not being said because I had any troubles nor needing a sympathetic comment from that person. I asked her to stop this, that I appreciated she had warm thoughts towards me but as a non-christian I would prefer if she wouldn't expose her religious beliefs like that with me included, to me like that. I of course had to listen to a speech about how sad, lonely, wandering person I must be because I didn't have god as my saviour blah blah blah..... and so on. And ended that speech in that she wouldn't stop and even more she'd strive harder to bring me salvation. So the next time I met her she as usual said she'd pray for me. And at one point in the conversation, she sneezed. I answered "satan bless you". She of course jumped her height in rage because of it and I explained to her that I was a satanist. Since she found no problems in putting my persona in the same sentence as her god, then she shouldn't have any problems with me putting her's with my god, since it's all just good thoughts. Then all of a sudden the table turns, and I was sooooo insulting to her by my good notion of asking my lord to bless her after sneezing while she found nothing wrong with what she had said to me. I kept answering her religious comments back but with satan instead, until she broke and kindly asked me not to do it anymore. I obliged as long as she'd keep my out of her religion too... I know most christians say comments like that in good heart. But at the same time I know that most of them would be, like this aquaintance of mine, majorly offended if a satanist offered their comments in their good heart in a similar manner. I'm not a satanist btw. I'm an athiest. I feel the same uncomfortability when getting christian comments like that as my aquaintance felt with the satanic ones. So yes, in that manner it is offensive and I would at least like religious people to think about this before commenting and ask themselves the question are they ready to accept comments like the ones they are letting out but with a different lord?

Level -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 2:47:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied Yep, prayer in public school is offensive. Not everyone prays, not everyone is religious. in your opinion prayer is offensive. btw .....when i hear someone has troubles or a sick family member and say "i'll pray for you/them" i have never heard anyone say OMG i'm soooo offended. If prayer (or ping pong for that matter) is offensive to an individual, then it is, factually, not just as an opinion. Personally, I pray, and appreciate when others do so for me. I also agree with the posters that say a moment of silence in school is fine, and that a school-sponsored prayer is out of bounds.

WingedMercury -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 3:08:47 AM)
In these threads, we are giving our opinions. If I feel insulted, and I can tell you why I feel insulted, in a clear, rational and logical manner, if I can justify why I feel insulted, then what right have you got to tell me I am neither insulted nor justified in being insulted? OK - so it is just your opinion, put forward quite arrogantly. But there is nothing particularly wrong with being arrogant. It is the truth of the matter we are looking at here, not necessarily who can be the more insulting. And by the way, I am pretty ugly too. Go for it. But don't belittle yourself by wishing some sort of voodoo magic on me.

Lashra -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:54:21 AM)
We do not need prayer in schools but one thing that we do need is discipline. If people want to pray they are free to do so on a voluntary basis in school, at home, in church, in their car etc. My child goes to a public school and they have a christian group which meets after school, they pray on school grounds and no one bothers them. The separation of church and state is a good thing and it needs to be in place. I do not think many people would want the church dictating to them how to live their lives. We have fought against that stone age thinking for quite awhile now. ~Lashra

StellaByStarlite -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 4:54:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I don't want people praying for me. Not only are they, by implication, insulting me, but they are belittling themselves. It's a lose-lose situation as far as I am concerned. It might make them feel better, but then strawberry and icecream might make them feel better too. Really? Even as a confirmed atheist, I would never feel insulted if somebody was concerned enough about me personally to ask their god to help me out.

MellowSir -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:00:28 AM)
Every one believes in their own god, or not, so prayer shouldn't be required. A better idea would be to bring back corporal punishment. When I was in school we never brought guns or even knives. Then the bleeding hearts removed the corporal punishment, and guess what? Violence in schools increased because the teachers couldn't even so much as slap an unruly kid.....no longer any consequences for being a delinquent.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:02:04 AM)
My personal 2 cents. I believe that there should be time alloted in school during which a child can pray, meditate, ponder life, or whatever else they select to do during those alloted minutes. I dont believe prayer in school should be necessary, since not every member of the class wil pray the same way and that cannot be lead. However I do not see a reason that a time cant be set aside where those who do get comfort or direction in their day from prayer can do so, others can color if thats what puts their mind at ease. Forcing religion on someone is wrong, Ive dealt with that most of my life. But allowing someone to partake if they want to, that might actualy help some situations. My opinion DV

StellaByStarlite -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:12:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury They are insulting me because they think I am going to be thankful for their prayers (putting me in the same boat as someone who believes in the supernatural - I find that insulting), and they are belittling themselves because they are admitting to believing in a higher being, in other words, suspending all the logic and the laws of the known universe. People should keep their religion to themselves, instead of cascading it over others. I hope that makes you understand another's point of view. It is important. You know.. a pretty nice person on this message board ( she knows who she is. ) quite correctly brought to my attention how non-theists tend to present themselves. Faith is an elusive, slippery thing.. it's not dependent on intellect, or logic, or intelligence. But so what? Any philosophy or belief system that alienates instead of bringing together isn't worth having. When a non-theist throws out the view you posted, it's pretty insulting to those who find spirituality and faith a huge benefit to their lives. Is it worth it, to hurt people that way? No way. I'm re-framing my atheism into something more like "apatheism". Meaning that I'd rather connect with people then drive them off, and in the long run, it sure as hell doesn't matter if a Christian wants to pray, or a Pagan wants to cleanse my house. It's enough that they care about me. People are too precious to hurt by something like a disagreement over faith.

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:13:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite quote: ORIGINAL: WingedMercury I don't want people praying for me. Not only are they, by implication, insulting me, but they are belittling themselves. It's a lose-lose situation as far as I am concerned. It might make them feel better, but then strawberry and icecream might make them feel better too. Really? Even as a confirmed atheist, I would never feel insulted if somebody was concerned enough about me personally to ask their god to help me out. Thats because you have manners and insight and are secure enough in your own beliefs to withstand a little diversity.

darkinshadows -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:20:55 AM)
I am a christian. I disagree with the whole prayer in school approach. I loathe that my children would be forced into 'prayer' over something that they may not understand properly (who is to say that the person leading prayer would even explain ?) that would be false prayer and not worth the words uttered. If my children are to pray - it will be on there terms and because they understand the reason - not just because someone tells them to. No taking the Lords name in vain an all that. Silent meditation that allows an individual to participate in their chosen belief or spirituality however is more appropriate. That way it is down to the individual themself without the whole bended head, closed eyes and hands held scenario which can be completely insincere. You are also asking for and showing a segregation in schools with such thoughts, creating a them and us structure. quote: However, I do think that for many people, perhaps even the majority of people, being spiritual in some way helps us to remember our own personal good morals. I've often wondered if there would be less violence in places like schools if prayer were encouraged; if at the beginning of each day everyone were to take a few moments as a group to pray quietly. As for those who do not particiapate in prayer or meditation, so you believe that they cannot sustain or have morals then? Which is of course a ridiculous notion. If you think that prayer reminds those of us who are religious or spiritual in any way of our morality - then I suggest you take another look. Priests still sin, nuns still struggle and the most zealous of fundementalists hate. Public prayer doesn't aid morality. It just makes people feel superior. Those who are humble and meditate privately in their own way are far more beautiful and aware of their own morals and codes. Peace and Rapture

caitlyn -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:33:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy If the kids were praying from the koran at school I wonder if you might feel differently? No place for either in a public school. I wouldn't care one way or the other, if they were praying from the Koran or dancing around pentagrams in goat's heads. Perhaps some are too far removed from public schools to remember the real dynamic. Do you honestly think that little minds are waiting attentively to become convereted by a chanted morning prayer ... or not. Or, a little older ones ... trust me, it's a badge of honor to be able to say the pledge, while scoping boys. ... and deliver us from eagles ... amen!

aSlavesLife -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:38:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf So you feel insulted and offended? It is wrong to insult and offend you? Then you turn around and are offensive yourself? By doing that you validate that which you object to. Prayer is good thoughts. If someone says they are praying for you then use a filter such as "I wish you well and hope you will do better". The sentiment is actually the same. quote: ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife quote: ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav quote: I have asked people to please not add me to their delusions when they have offered to pray for me. when i offer that, i'm doing it out of concern....theres no need to insult someone by saying they are delusional for offering it And they need to insult me by offering to drag me into their delusion? After all, Jesus says ( Matt 6:5 ) to pray in private rather than announce your prayers. If prayer really works, I don't need to know about it. Only the invisible sky fairy needs to hear it. Hmmm, yes, it is a pretty fair call that if you insult me, I will respond in kind. But would it be better if I adopt the prayer approach? Perhaps when someone laments that they have not recently had sex, I should announce loudly and publicly that the next time I masturbate, I will think about them. Lots of happy masturbation thoughts going forward in a positive and gratifying manner there, right? Or should I stop and think that someone might possibly be offended by my thinking about them whilst spanking my monkey, and if I plan on doing it, at least have the decency to keep the thought to myself?

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:45:57 AM)
Jesus was actually speaking of praying "in public" and making a big show of it...what i am talking about is truely just genuine concern for someone else and when i know they are hurting i do what i personally think is best...which is to offer that sitsuation up to God. i dont drop to my knees and pray right there at the jiffy mart, i have more respect for prayer then that....

michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: prayer in schools (4/25/2007 5:47:15 AM)
Prayer does not work...at least for me. i feel like i'm talking to myself and gave it up ages ago.

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