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The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 8:34:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		    So I'm training my replacement at work (it's a good thing) but he's a complete rookie to the kind of equipment we run.  I've been doing this, off and on, for better than 20 years.  There's no way to transfer my experience, but I'm trying to give him a foundation to build on, and drive home the importance of keeping safety the first priority.  I have 3 more days to do this.

    But the sadist is creeping out.  I found myself today, NOT giving him an important tip when performing maintainence, just so I could watch him get frustrated and skin a knuckle.  I can rationalize it any number of ways:  Scratches and scrapes are a way of life in this gig, we need to know if he's going to be a total wimp;  I wanted to assess his mechanical problem solving skills; that lessons learned the hard way 'stick' better.  I'd be lying though.

     I knew he was going to rip the skin right off his knuckle the way he was doing it, and I decided to watch.  He showed up 20 minutes late with a lame excuse instead of an apology.  It cost him.

      I was in a hurry to get done and come home today.  Tomorrow, I'm looking to put a few hours of OT on that final paycheck.  He might have a very hard day.

      The question is this,  Since I'm the teacher, and he asked to be the student, can my smirking sadist methods of instruction be considered consensual?

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 8:38:54 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		It is not consensual because he did not have fair warning that he might have to learn from the Three Stooges Academy of Hard Knocks.

If I did that to someone it would be to teach them because we learn from our failures much more than we learn from our mistakes AND they were not listening to me anyways, but if they were attempting to learn and being diligent i would not do that. But I am not a Sadist.

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 8:43:42 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		No it cannot and it is extremely thoughtless and inappropriate to do as a teacher. 

No, the showing up late was unacceptable- but letting him make a mistake and hurt himself knowing you COULD have prevented, knowing it was part of the job you accepted to HELP prevent it, was wrong and doesn't at all address showing up late.

Very poor teaching perspective.  If most doms really approach their relationships with this sort of mindset, I can see why most are so dismal and doomed to fail.

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 8:44:43 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		it is not consensual.

but you could tell him that is what you are doing and give him the option of being hazed or simply being told....ask him which way these life preservation lessons will make the most impact.



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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 8:51:06 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is not consensual because he did not have fair warning that he might have to learn from the Three Stooges Academy of Hard Knocks.




     But Julia, the Stooges are fun to watch. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 8:55:59 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		it is consensual only if you are consistantly a prick, if you had been letting him learn from the pain of doing it wrong since the start of this training session than I would support you totally, however it seems as if you changed the rules of the game in mid-play...
in a situation like this, I would let the newbie learn the hard way from the jump and take delight in each moment that presented itself...man up (cowboy up) whatever... and after all this toture ya might as well take him out to Hooters for a beer and wings (or whatever it is you men folk do after flexing and secreting enough testostorone to send local live stock into estrus.)

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 9:03:35 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

but you could tell him that is what you are doing and give him the option of being hazed or simply being told....





       These are physical things he's learning.  He has to develop muscle memory by doing them.  They can't be learned by telling.

Experience is the only real teacher.  I have hope for him (unlike some others that have been sent to me to train), because he's willing to say the magic words, "this is harder than it looks."  I have a few scars here and there from this job, he'll get some too, if he lasts. 

     I think of 'hazing' more in line with cruel pranks that serve no purpose.  There is no initiation ritual here.  I'm just deciding how necessary lessons will be taught.  Previous experience tells me that if I had told him the right way, he'd have tried it the simpler looking way next time and busted his knuckle anyway.  But I wouldn't have been able to watch.  Now he knows WHY we do it the other way.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 10:14:35 PM   
Casie


Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		No, it's not considered concentual, but all in all it is concidered quite ammusing and in the long run will teach more valuable lessons then just showing them the right way to do it. Learing by mistake is much more informative than learning by instruction.

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/24/2007 10:25:43 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I can speak for only Myself, but no.  My sadist only comes out to play when the play is consentual.  There is a difference in an agreement of activities, rather than random harm. 
 
Now, I'm no angel.  Do I think some people deserve harm? Sure.  Serial murderers, etc.  I'm just not the One to dish it out to them.  I'll leave that up to powers greater than Me.
 
I'll stick with consentual play partners.  I'll dish out whatever they can take.  *Laughs*

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 6:29:40 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   
     The question is this,  Since I'm the teacher, and he asked to be the student, can my smirking sadist methods of instruction be considered consensual?


Your story goes to show that there are good teachers and there are bad teachers.....  maybe you should learn the difference and then you wouldn't have to ask such a stupid question.

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 6:32:42 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Experience is the only real teacher.  I have hope for him (unlike some others that have been sent to me to train), because he's willing to say the magic words, "this is harder than it looks."  I have a few scars here and there from this job, he'll get some too, if he lasts. 

    I think of 'hazing' more in line with cruel pranks that serve no purpose.  There is no initiation ritual here.  I'm just deciding how necessary lessons will be taught.  Previous experience tells me that if I had told him the right way, he'd have tried it the simpler looking way next time and busted his knuckle anyway.  But I wouldn't have been able to watch.  Now he knows WHY we do it the other way.


This is complete Bullshit!!!  You just trying to justify your inadequate methods and your inappropriate behavior.

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Knight of Mists

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 8:50:59 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

but you could tell him that is what you are doing and give him the option of being hazed or simply being told....





      These are physical things he's learning.  He has to develop muscle memory by doing them.  They can't be learned by telling.

Experience is the only real teacher.  I have hope for him (unlike some others that have been sent to me to train), because he's willing to say the magic words, "this is harder than it looks."  I have a few scars here and there from this job, he'll get some too, if he lasts. 

    I think of 'hazing' more in line with cruel pranks that serve no purpose.  There is no initiation ritual here.  I'm just deciding how necessary lessons will be taught.  Previous experience tells me that if I had told him the right way, he'd have tried it the simpler looking way next time and busted his knuckle anyway.  But I wouldn't have been able to watch.  Now he knows WHY we do it the other way.


If you're gonna argue and rationalize your stance, why did you ask for opinions?

Why is doing it this way because this is the way you learned a valid way of teaching? I've never understood this. I'llbe training my replacement this summer. I like my job, respect the people I work with and would find it inappropriate for me to not teach my replacement in a positive manner.

I'm also a teacher. If there really is a good reason that a student has to go through a specific set of steps, I explain why they need to do it. If they THEN "bust a knuckle", they do it with informed consent. The responsibility for the accident is then on their shoulders, not mine. I'm glad he only busted a knuckle. Safety at work is important to us.

Master Fire


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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 8:54:57 AM   
MadameButterfly


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with the others... teaching someone something is an important relationship and this person is dependant on you to learn this job and replace you.  SO not only is this person nervous but is failing; failing because you are setting them up to do so.  In my opinion you are abusing your position of authority and it is my hope that you do not take on these same attitudes and behaviours in your Lifestyle relationships... I like what Fifth Angel has to say in his article called Masterism vs Sadism ... you can find this article on www.artofbdsm.com  check it out...

Madame Butterfly

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 8:57:04 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I can relate as a teacher. My students try my patience but I have a professional and ethical responsibility to them and to me.

So, I set out everything in my syllabus. Then if they don't like the fact that they can't make up a quiz or an assignment, too bad, it's in the syllabus.

However this is in no way related to my SM interests. I enjoy being mean in that sense. Having to be strict with students is either tiring or sad, not what I want from SM.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/25/2007 9:35:48 AM >

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 12:24:50 PM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
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quote:

Previous experience tells me that if I had told him the right way, he'd have tried it the simpler looking way next time and busted his knuckle anyway


It would of been alot simpler and alot more ethical to explain why things were done the right way, show him your battle scars and explain what happens if he does it the wrong way.

If you can foresee furture problems or things that will occur - doesnt that give you an added responsiblity to help ensure their safety? Isnt it supposed to help you be a BETTER teacher?  Experience is priceless and this is why they had you train another, but you arent using your experience for their benefit.   You're using your experience to vent on another human being.


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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 12:57:11 PM   
petitesoumise


Posts: 73
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		If he was just supposed to get hurt anyways, and discover the wrong way to do it, why even bother having someone train him? You are supposed to teach him and prevent work related harm from coming to him, not be vindictive.
P.S.

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 6:11:08 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       Alrighty then, I'm sensing a touch of hostility here .

      KoM;  I'm an excellent teacher.  When he gets thrown into the deep end on Monday, I will have made sure there is water in the pool.  My question wasn't whether my method in that minor lesson was something ya'll approve of, but whether asking to be taught equated with consent to whatever teaching methods I choose to use.

       MasterFire;  In my line of work, a skinned knuckle is known as a boo-boo.  Crushed feet, severed fingers, penetrating injuries of the eye, the nightmare of seriously injuring or killing someone else through inattention (knock on wood), those are the kind of safety issues we deal with on a daily basis.  He tried to crush his foot today and I wasn't about to let that one happen.

      Whether I have implied consent has become moot.  He called me on the knuckle this morning.  "You knew I was going to do that, didn't you?" was his question.  And I answered, "Yes, and I let you."  Later in the day, he was given the option of training with the man he'll be working with after I leave and chose to stay with me.  Partly based on the replies to this I saw this morning before leaving for work, I made it clear that I might not be nice about teaching him as much as I can in the next couple days.

    I thank you all for your replies and insights.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 6:14:29 PM   
Kitte9


Posts: 411
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		Consentual or not, I have to admit I laughed when I read this. And I'd probably have done the same. I'm so bad. *s*

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 6:19:02 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		That was cute.  You know the answer to that.  You are trying to set us all up.

LOL

Regards, MissSCD

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RE: The Sadist Within - 4/25/2007 6:20:38 PM   
tade


Posts: 663
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Tampa Bay, Florida
Status: offline 		More than likely he would still scrape the Hell out of his knuckles and have to find his own way of doing it anyway, that just sped up his process a little. You are training a replacement, not teaching a student so to say. Who's to say that he doesn't learn better that way. Who am I to judge. I'll bet you that he will watch whatever it was he was gaining the knowledge of the next time he does it, a lesson that will last long after your words of how to do it have faded from his mind. Cuts and scrapes are how the knowledge sinks in and scraped knuckles isn't exactly lopped off fingers with a saw blade.

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