FirmhandKY
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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
P.S. if you have an issue from another thread - the better establishments thread - then best to post on there and see what sort of response you get. There's no need for you to subvert this thread by carrying over whatever issues you have from that thread.
I did. You never replied.
quote:
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
In terms of your point around getting involved in debates with you, I don't really go in for insults on message boards, but, in truth, I find you increasingly boring for reasons that don't need to be mentioned and the answers to my lack of commitment to your posts lie in this statement.
I've never personally insulted you.
I simply point out that I disagree with you, and what your proclamations mean, and what your stated beliefs leads one to conclude about how your stance mirrors many others who have a need for absolutes in certain areas of their moral beliefs.
I'm sure you feel insulted, when faced with an unpleasant truth. That's normal. But that is also a world of difference from "insulting you" in order to stifle debate, and pointing out how your positions actually look to others.
quote:
ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
In fact, I do not believe in violence to impose my values. I think that in order to justify violence there is a heavy burden of proof and it rarely exists. On the other hand, in your own words, you believe you are entitled to kill people in Iraq for your beliefs. Now, a reasonable person would say you are the one who believes in the one true answer - as you are willing to take your beliefs to the extreme.
So, here we are again taking up space on a thread with you attempting to defend your position in Iraq by labelling my position as moralistic (i.e. taking up space with posts that have nothing to do with the OP). What you deem to be moralistic, I deem to be a statement of moderation in response to your extremism - don't kill people for your beliefs - this applies to Stalin, Pol Pot, Bush, Blair and you seeing as you've declared you believe you are entitled to do so in Iraq.
You continue to twist my words and beliefs to suit your own, while ignoring what I actually have said.
Key parts of what I said:
No where did I say that I think violence is the best, or even sole preferred method to increase (impose?) "freedom". It's just that sometimes it is a required method to defend yourself.
No where did I say that other countries, cultures and societies must adhere to US beliefs. Simply that when they use unacceptable methods in an attempt to destroy or alter my society, that the use of force can be an appropriate tool to convince them of the error of their ways:
However, until those societies actually threatened the stability of the world capitalist system, they were "free" to work out their own destiny, culture and society.
The issue of "re-ordering" a Arabic Middle Eastern society to something approaching Western systems of government - a liberal economic system, and the belief in the rule of law - isn't simply a crass attempt to impose "the best" system because we are cultural imperialist. It's an attempt to change the dynamic of the overall culture by growing the institutions that will support a peaceful culture no longer interested in the death and destruction of my family, my friends, my countrymen, and my fellow Westerners.
It is people who believe and defend absolutes, or who are simply tyrants such as some of the names you quoted above, with a morality that simply says "whatever I want" that become mass killers.
Stalin, Pol Pot, Bush, Blair
You confuse the Sheep Dogs with the Wolves. "See! Both have canine teeth! See! Both eat meat! See, Both have four legs! See! Both growl when angry!"
If you can't see the difference between Stalin and Bush, between Pol Pot and Blair, then anyone of reasonable intelligence should question anything else you have to say.
You criticize, but can't take criticism. You condemn, yet will not take action. And this makes you somehow my moral superior?
Not in my lifetime.
Theodore Roosevelt, another American pegged the people who believe similar to you a long time ago:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
You claim to believe in "Western Ideals", yet you refuse to support, or defend them. In fact, you despise and condemn those who do, even if in an imperfect manner.
That's not any kind of "support" if you ask me, and causes me to question your statements to the contrary.
This shows up in your denoucations of the free market system as well. Read all of Roosevelt's speech. He addresses a lot of what is being thrown around this forum even today about the free market, the "monied class" and all the other stuff.
FirmKY
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Some people are just idiots.
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