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RE: Objectivity - 4/26/2007 11:35:21 AM   
behindmirrors


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I, personally, think that objectivity is possible, and that the emotional response someone gets from another is based on their value judgements of that person- and that those value judgements made of a potential partner are determined by the person's own moral code- i.e. their own system of values, what they consider their own worth to be, etc. I will detail this further later on.

I also think the key to this is not so much staying objective, but instead, staying rational and adhering to reason would be the better term. Objectivity requires an adherence to reason, to the ability to think and to rely on that capability. Thus, I would say that the root of objectivity is reason and rationality- and a claim that objectivity does not exist is a claim of irrationality, a claim to not consider one's self able to think.

When a person loves another, they are making a statement about their own moral code, their own sense of worth, and their philosophy of life. When you think of it in these terms, it makes perfect sense why those who have little regard for their life and little value ascribed to their own self get into relationships with those who reflect that, often leading to an even lower sense of self, due to a lack of fulfillment and a reinforcement of negative self-image. It also makes sense as to why people look for partners that embody a "higher" sense of life then themselves, and seek out those whose value judgements of their lives reflect and reinforce the positive self-image they hold. It would also be perfectly logical to determine that those who are fulfilled in a positive way by their relationships also have a high assessment of their self-worth, wheras those who are not fulfilled positively, but instead experience negative reinforcement from their relationships have a lower sense of self-worth. It can explain that "destructive cycle", if you will.

So, to explain fully what I am saying here:
A person picks a relationship partner based on their own sense of self-worth, morality, and values.
They make value judgements of those they encounter based on these things, and pick a partner who is compatible with them in an objective evaluation of these elements, be it fully conscious or not.
Emotional response to another person is a response to these moral values, sense of self-worth, and the value judgements one has made of their (potential) partner.
Objectivity is possible because being non-objective would require a deviation or exception from one's own morality. For most people, it is my thought that though many may not recognize how objective they are being, they are fully capable of this objectivity.

When we decide "yes" or "no" to a person, we are giving a judgement and/or a sanction, based on our own system of values and morality. To claim objectivity in this is impossible is to claim that one is without rationality or morality.

behindmirrors.





(in reply to dawntreader)
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RE: Objectivity - 4/26/2007 12:30:54 PM   
dawntreader


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Wow...this is a very good point , as all the others have been - i am glad i posted this thread :-)
              j
 


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RE: Objectivity - 4/26/2007 6:16:45 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

quote:


Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny — and also in a willingness to revise or abandon your theories when the tests fail (as they usually do).

Stephen Jay Gould
 So, i have been doing some thinking about objectivity. The above quote seemed pertinent to the journeys many of us are on for a compatible counterpart and yet i personally find it difficult being objective in these matters that involve my submissive desires...swept away, if you will.  i would be interested in how both sides of the kneel maintain objectivity while getting to know another, particularly as one opens themselves up more intimately to a potential counterpart -         j



I've often found that objectivity opens oneself up to a gaggle of unencumbered processes which inevitably end up costing one more in taxes.

(However, I've known others to find just the opposite).

< Message edited by Griswold -- 4/26/2007 6:17:29 PM >

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RE: Objectivity - 4/26/2007 9:06:14 PM   
dawntreader


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Leave it to you Griswold to tie taxes in to objectivity! LOL!
i think i will have to add this combo to my list of hard limits :-)

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It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
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There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Griswold)
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RE: Objectivity - 4/26/2007 10:02:27 PM   
outlier


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny — and also in a willingness to revise or abandon your theories when the tests fail (as they usually do).

Stephen Jay Gould
 

Because this is Stephen Jay Gould I will guess that he was speaking of science.
If that is the case,  then he was probably addressing objectivity as a necessary
part of the scientific method.   It is a little too complex and detailed to get
into with a simple board post, but here is the condensed version.

There was a growing segment of thinkers who have questioned the
possibility of a person being objective.  Some have even pushed the
argument to the extent that they question the possibility of the existence
of  "objective obsevation"  thus the scientific method itself.  I belive that
this is Gould's attempt circumvent these criticisms because by their very
nature they would preclude "the observer" scientist being aware of them.

So he has done it by redefining, or since the word "redefine" is sometimes
used to designate a fallacy, let us say "more carefully define" or use a more
restricted definition of "objective".

Outlier



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RE: Objectivity - 4/26/2007 10:42:13 PM   
dawntreader


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i would venture to say you are right in your thoughts...i knew of him more from the medical standpoint as he was quite a walking miracle :-)
    j

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Objectivity - 4/27/2007 3:12:49 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

Leave it to you Griswold to tie taxes in to objectivity! LOL!
i think i will have to add this combo to my list of hard limits :-)


(Taxes are my hard limit).

(in reply to dawntreader)
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RE: Objectivity - 4/27/2007 3:22:15 PM   
Stranger1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

quote:


Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny — and also in a willingness to revise or abandon your theories when the tests fail (as they usually do).

Stephen Jay Gould
 So, i have been doing some thinking about objectivity. The above quote seemed pertinent to the journeys many of us are on for a compatible counterpart and yet i personally find it difficult being objective in these matters that involve my submissive desires...swept away, if you will.  i would be interested in how both sides of the kneel maintain objectivity while getting to know another, particularly as one opens themselves up more intimately to a potential counterpart -         j



Very good topic.

Brutal honesty is one of the hardest things we have to do as humans-suborning the ego to higher causes.

My walk in life has taught me that the more I can let go of the *me*, the better able I am to understand and see the reality of others. Even more so-is the overcoming of the fear of rejection...........Being comfortable enough in your own skin to be fearless.

Being mastered and controlled by fear is a horrible way to live. It does no one service-least of all, oneself. I REALLY think that people have a need to learn to be happy alone-before they can be happy with another. And to do that-you need to be able to see who you are-not who you like to think you are. And if you see things you do not like-to find the real determination to make them right.

There are few finer things a human can give to themselves than self love-of that brutal honesty.

And if you don't have that love-how well can you give it to another?

(in reply to dawntreader)
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RE: Objectivity - 4/27/2007 10:51:20 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

I tend to use my logical faculties to deal with situations, including emotional ones. And I am able to remove my emotional self from an equation to take a look at the 'thing' under the harsh lights of reality.


It seems you're equating 'subjective' with 'emotional' .  I take a very analytic approach to most situations, even emotional ones.  I invest time, energy and committment in pretty much everything I do, but I don't tend to get emotionally involved, and its seriously difficult to be emotional, even when I want to.  But, that's because its the way I'm subjectively constituted.  Just because I remove my "emotional self," to use your phrase, doesn't mean I'm removing my total self from the situation.  



I think this perspective is one of an academic and why I responded the way I did, being "objective" really means being an "observer", which means one is not a participant in what they are observing. In ethnography whenever one does any sort of research they have to specify whether they were participants are not, and if they were, what level of participation they had in what they were researching. The reason why is because it affects how they do their research.

I was also taught that when I "observe" something it is always a subjective process because I am making conscious and unconscious decisions about what to include and exclude from what I make note of. This in and of itself changes how the research is conducted.

As far as remaining objective about a personal relationship with a human being, I do not see how that is possible, no matter how unemotional the person because their perspective is just different than an outsiders. For example, have 10 different people sit in a room and write down everything they see, each will omit or include things based upon where they sit and what is readily apparent.

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RE: Objectivity - 4/28/2007 12:34:15 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader
i would be interested in how both sides of the kneel maintain objectivity while getting to know another, particularly as one opens themselves up more intimately to a potential counterpart -


Objectivity is my definition is a judgement without the influence of emotions or personal prejudices.  In general, I believe no person will beable to remain completely objective with regards to their own situation.  However, I think we can take logical steps that prevent us from having irrational thoughts and emotions have a significant effect on our choices.  I find that taking logical steps in evalute a situation helps to keep the reins on my emotions.  For example, as I was getting to know kyra my emotions became rather strong and intense.  I had never met her in person, but yet there was intense emotional feelings that where developing.  Even though I acknowledge the existence of these emotions, I didn't allow it push me faster into a direction than wasn't intellectual prudent.  I knew intellectually that I needed to met her in person before I could give the emotions any creditibility.  Even though the emotions said run forward... my mind held be back to take prudent steps.

I often wonder if it's an issue of a person learning to be more objective.. or is it more person learning to not let thier emotions lead them into action without the support of thoughtful consideration.

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(in reply to dawntreader)
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RE: Objectivity - 4/28/2007 12:40:34 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: behindmirrors

When we decide "yes" or "no" to a person, we are giving a judgement and/or a sanction, based on our own system of values and morality. To claim objectivity in this is impossible is to claim that one is without rationality or morality.



mmmmm no .. that really isn't being objective... Giving a judgement on.. One's own system of values and morality in of itself is a very subjective.  It's your system and being objective is making judgement without personal prejudices and there is nothing that is filled with our own personal prejudices than our values and morality.

Now.. if you where to make a judgement of a situation based on another's values and morality.. then I believe one could exercise some objectivity in the matter.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Objectivity - 5/1/2007 8:54:33 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

quote:


Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny — and also in a willingness to revise or abandon your theories when the tests fail (as they usually do).

Stephen Jay Gould
 So, i have been doing some thinking about objectivity. The above quote seemed pertinent to the journeys many of us are on for a compatible counterpart and yet i personally find it difficult being objective in these matters that involve my submissive desires...swept away, if you will.  i would be interested in how both sides of the kneel maintain objectivity while getting to know another, particularly as one opens themselves up more intimately to a potential counterpart -         j



When it comes to matters of the heart, so to speak, my objectivity is keeping an eye on my emotions and where they're coming from. While I may or may not be able to control them at that moment, I can still observe them so that I get the lesson eventually.

Master Fire


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(in reply to dawntreader)
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RE: Objectivity - 5/1/2007 9:11:08 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

quote:


Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny — and also in a willingness to revise or abandon your theories when the tests fail (as they usually do).

Stephen Jay Gould
 So, i have been doing some thinking about objectivity. The above quote seemed pertinent to the journeys many of us are on for a compatible counterpart and yet i personally find it difficult being objective in these matters that involve my submissive desires...swept away, if you will.  i would be interested in how both sides of the kneel maintain objectivity while getting to know another, particularly as one opens themselves up more intimately to a potential counterpart -         j



I don't remain objective at all.   In fact, I don't know that I'm even capable of it. I just follow what draws me and allow my emotions to rule me,  then I worry about the details later.

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RE: Objectivity - 5/1/2007 9:25:32 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stranger1

My walk in life has taught me that the more I can let go of the *me*, the better able I am to understand and see the reality of others. Even more so-is the overcoming of the fear of rejection...........Being comfortable enough in your own skin to be fearless.

Being mastered and controlled by fear is a horrible way to live. It does no one service-least of all, oneself. I REALLY think that people have a need to learn to be happy alone-before they can be happy with another. And to do that-you need to be able to see who you are-not who you like to think you are. And if you see things you do not like-to find the real determination to make them right.

There are few finer things a human can give to themselves than self love-of that brutal honesty.

And if you don't have that love-how well can you give it to another?


i totally agree with what you have said here :-)

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Stranger1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Objectivity - 5/1/2007 9:28:07 AM   
dawntreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I often wonder if it's an issue of a person learning to be more objective.. or is it more person learning to not let thier emotions lead them into action without the support of thoughtful consideration.


Wonderful thoughts KoM, thankyou.  i think in the above quote you nailed the concept i was personally trying to wrap my head around.

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Objectivity - 5/1/2007 9:29:38 AM   
dawntreader


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Thanks again to all who have replied  Everyone's posts have held a little pearl for me and it is appreciated~
              j

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 36
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