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Elorin -> RE: Don't cum until I say you can..... (4/28/2007 7:04:56 AM)
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ORIGINAL: rskenderian
The responsibility factors You mention i agree with completely, and i think they're just obvious.
I disagree with the fact that the responsibility factors are obvious.
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i don't think You're debating with what i said. Everything You said is exactly what i was talking about; i just didn't mention the context of responsibility - which i thought would be taken for granted.
To take for granted the context of a statement, particularly a statement made in writing, ESPECIALLY on a forum like this, is a bit naive. I can make certain statements without qualifying them when I talking to a group that I know, but when the statements will be read by strangers I don't take much for granted.
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As far as i'm concerned, You don't need to say, "Yes, in my opinion."
You can simply say, "Yes."
I'm glad you don't feel I need to state that something is my opinion. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who come to BDSM, and message boards like this, looking for the one true way to do things. By stating that something is my opinion, I am making clear that it is from my point of view. Were I to state something without qualifiers it would imply that there is no room for other opinions, which is not the case.
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If You're afraid to make certain statements - well, i certainly understand. i've made my share of mistakes and they do bite back hard. But, somewhere along the spectrum, there's a place where it's just not grey anymore, and we can call it black or white.
I am afraid of making no statements. I am also aware that there are many schools of thought which state that if a submissive is going to undertake playing with others, the sub should also take responsibility for finding out dangers and consequences before play, and that if the sub doesn't do it then the blame for such consequences lays with the sub, not the Dominant who was interested in doing them. I have one opinion and I know that there are other opinions that disagree with mine. I feel the dominant should make the sub explicitly aware of possible consequences. Others feel that as long as the sub was told "we are going to teach you to Cum on Command" then it is the sub's responsibility to go find out what that means, and then come back and say "nope, we aren't. Hard limit. Not going there." The other opinion is not invalid, it simply is not my own.
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Eventually, opinions have to stop being opinions, and become true or false. "Vanilla milkshakes taste good." is not really an opinion, because there is always the unstated but obvious contextual proclamation ".... to me." Obviously, the person making this statement is speaking of their personal experience. So such statements are actually always a fact, without the contextual declaration of their being a fact being out-right stated.
There are certainly circumstances in which you can make a statement that implies an opinion. The statement "Vanilla milkshakes taste good" IS an opinion because it has a term which has variable meaning. Good is not a word which has a hard definition; it is a word indicating opinion. "Vanilla milkshakes are brown." could be taken as a statement of fact...but still includes the possiblity that other people have encountered vanilla milkshakes that are not brown. Vanilla milkshakes taste good is not a fact. "I think vanilla milkshakes taste good." is possibly a fact...but comparing how you feel about vanilla milkshakes and the fundamental right or wrong of any BDSM activity is very different. Especially when sharing that opinion in a place where thousands of people, many of them complete newcomers to BDSM, are looking for guidance and direction.
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Everyone says i write too much, but i find i have to keep writing more, because somewhere along the line, you just have to agree to understand the context in which i'm speaking.
I understand the context that you are using here, I simply disagree with the practice of assuming everyone else will correctly understand your context. But everyone doesn't have to agree to understand your context. Some people ~never~ will. To continually force your point on someone because you are so confident that you are correct is denying the fact that other people are not always going to think the way that you do.
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So if i say "Vanilla milkshakes are good." ... can't you possibly understand that i mean "I like vanilla milkshakes"? absolutely - and that there is no opinion being made, yes, there is. it is a statement of YOUR opinion and that there is nothing to argue about, really? no, there isn't. if I don't like vanilla milkshakes, I don't like them. If it appeared that you were trying to make that statement apply to EVERYONE in a the world, however, there would be time for disagreement.. Take statements like 'you can always tell when someone is playing' or 'anyone who has fantasies about sex with someone under 18 is sick and wrong.' To debate those statements which are based in opinion but expressed as facts is not silly or immaterial. Unfortunately, I'm not even sure it applies...because I wasn't arguing. I dont' think my way is right and yours is wrong...I simply expressed my opinion. And that the ensuing argument "No, they don't" ... "Yes, they do" ... "No, they don't" ... etc ... is just as childish as i write it here? I think the distinction is how much judgement is being made, and how much emotional vestment is in the subject at hand.
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"It is wrong to irresponsibly train someone to CoC if You have no intentions of establishing a committed relationship with them."
Now, what exactly do You want to mis-interpret here? Because that's all You're doing. No, obviously if the sub wants it, the statement is invalid. That is not the context in which the statement is made. Obviously.
I did not misinterpret anything. I shared MY opinion. I was not saying yours was wrong, I was saying how mine disagrees with it. Essentially, I defined what irresponsibly means to me. I do not think it is obvious that the statement is invalid if the sub wants it, simply because there is a term that is ambiguous and subject to opinion - that of irresponsibility.
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How about simply understanding, by the incomprehensible laws of Human, what context a person means? Or are we all supposed to be Mr. Spocks, and verbalize the context of the content accurately and precisely, state the logical given in which our following statement will take place, and then - finally - make our logical declaration based on the contextual logical given previously given, so that no possible misinterpretation can occur?
If you clarify a statement its meaning is less ambiguous. I do not trust the majority of humanity to comprehend the context in which I am making a statement. I think to assume everyone who reads something I write will comprehend all unspoken context is sheerest folly and arrogance.
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Doesn't that make things so much easier?
Certainly easier for one writing who doesn't take the time to make the clarifications. Much more difficult for someone seeking knowledge who has no experience with the context in which you make your statement, making it impossible for them to understand that context.
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English isn't mathematical or scientific in any way, and unless two people are willing to agree on the obvious context, they'll be able to argue and debate for the rest of eternity - with each of them being completely right ... given the other person's context they are deliberately misinterpreting, and deliberately replacing with their own.
Yes, deliberate misinterpretation can lead to continual debate. But then, so can trying to have a discussion with someone who has a completely different background and social history than yourself. It is not necessarily intentional when someone disagrees with you, or expresses their own opinion. Sometimes it is simply that they do not have the experience to comprehend what you are saying. And if, by implication, you mean that I deliberately misinterpreted what you said, I did not. I expressed my point of view as differing from yours. You say that your opinion is the same...once you expand upon your meaning of the word irresponsibly. So now, I understand that we both agree about the principles of training someone to Cum on Command...but vastly disagree about whether it is necessary to include contextual declarations when talking about value judgements.
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There is no such thing as an opinion; just facts. People just confuse themselves with linguistics, since spoken language is not designed as a science, but for the purpose of expression of our feelings ("Ug Aree!"[fear of the lion coming] ... primitive; "I like vanilla milkshakes" .... modern).
Fact: There is a cat on my bed. Opinion: That cat is lovable.
Fact: That woman is 5'4" and has blue eyes. Opinion: That woman is sexy.
There is such a thing as an opinion.
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ORIGINAL: Elorin
Your right, your privilege.
What context do You mean here; my right to choose to be trained to CoC, or my privilege to deliberately misinterpret the context that You are speaking from so i can start an argument, or be right, or look good, or score points for myself - while fucking up any and all movement toward concensus, resolution, agreement, and progress at the same time???
Here - how's this:
- Everyone has the right to choose whatever they want for themselves (including choosing to be trained to Cum-on-Command in a non-committed relationship).
- Nobody has the privilege to fuck up Human discussion and progress deliberately.
?
So, what are my rights and what are my privileges, really?
You do not have the privilege to deliberately misinterpret the context in which i speak.
Nor should you be allowed the right to, either. Who would want to allow You that right - and why? So they can have it, too? lol
Such things are now, after the year 2000, no longer necessary as illusions and concoctions of syntax. It's time to play catch-up with the future which has already passed Us by; otherwise, i can't sum up the pity for the demise of Humanity and this planet. If this is the best that Humans can do, then the Universe is far better off without Humanity. We make ourselves miserable enough with this perpetual idiotic shit. Do We have the right to exist? Not like this, no.
I made two statements, very clear. There is no need to ask what I feel is your right and privilege, as it is covered by the sentence directly before the statement. To be specific, it is your right and privilege to hold a certain opinion. I exercise my right and privilege to hold a different opinion, if I wish.
The rest of what you have said here quickly degenerates into making no sense whatsoever. However, I will once again state that I was not deliberately misinterpreting what you stated. I was also not trying to have an argument.
~Elorin
edited to fix quotes
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