quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

but you see, i think it does take unusual confidence to be completely comfortable (guilt-free) with "doing what they want to do".

I just want to interject that I think this is the heart of the issue in the thread.  I'm perfectly fine with believing and knowing that there are some dominants that want to get off (orgasm, have sexual pleasure) with absolute disregard for whether the submissive is sexually aroused, enjoying it, experiencing pleasure.  And those dominants are doing exactly what they want to do by disregarding their submissives pleasure or enjoyment.

What I think though is that you/daddysprop don't seem to understand that there are also some dominants that are doing PRECISELY and EXACTLY what they want to do when they do XYZ action to make their submissive orgasm or just experience some physical enjoyment. 

C~

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

...i tried to do so. i was never successful. so as i said, to have such an impossible demand made of me would naturally make me miserable and feel like a worthless slave to be honest. 

Isn't the worth of a slave determined by the master and not the slave?

edited to add, while the high sex drive slave forbidden to orgasm again might not experience personal happiness or contentment, she will (or should) still be fulfilled because she is able to please her Master by complying with his demands.

And you can categorically say that a slave should be fulfilled, even if she is denied something she needs because she is complying with her master's demands?  This may be according to YOUR dynamic, i don't think you should speak for others because i think a lot will say if they were denied something they felt they needed they would not be fulfilled or happy and most likely leave that situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
i also wanted to add here that while i do feel a slave has needs like everyone else, a slave is not entitled to have those needs met.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
a slave is not entitled to have those needs met.
As i've said before, maybe not in YOUR relationship but please don't deign to tell my Master that i'm not entitled to have my needs met.  He would dismiss that as utter nonsense.  i'm not entitled to have my wants met, but my needs...no question about it........slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
If I were brand new and this was the first post I ever read regarding what a slave should and should not be, I would run screaming from this lifestyle and never look back.
Agreed and who knows that it hasn't caused just that reaction from interested newbies who read such extreme, erroneous statements and actually believe that's how they must feel or they aren't "real"ly interested.  i used to be under such misconceptions, to a degree, until i met Master and He showed me what the reality of slavery is.  For U/us, it has nothing to do with being deprived of basic needs nor will it ever. 

Self preservation is a naturally occurring instinct that drives us to do everything within our power to get those needs met
Not if you're a "real" slave, erin.  A "real" slave has no instincts of self-preservation, don't you know that by now?  If Master wishes to set me on fire or throw me under a moving train on a whim, i am to obey without question because i am a slave and have no needs, no human rights, and certainly no ability to preserve my own heath, welfare, and life in the face of his desires.  If i were to think or admit otherwise, i would be a totally horrible and "bad" slave of no worth

To say that to be a slave you must either stifle that instinct or lack it is insulting
to say the very least.  If she wishes to claim she lacks it, that's cool.  Whatever.  To insist we all do or must stifle it - wrong.............slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
i also wanted to add here that while i do feel a slave has needs like everyone else, a slave is not entitled to have those needs met.

If I were brand new and this was the first post I ever read regarding what a slave should and should not be, I would run screaming from this lifestyle and never look back. Even if we take it down to the most basic needs of food, water and shelter....all human beings require that those needs be met or death is imminent. Self preservation is a naturally occurring instinct that drives us to do everything within our power to get those needs met. To say that to be a slave you must either stifle that instinct or lack it is insulting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
why is it insulting? because you disagree? are you insulted by all that does not fit your own personal views and beliefs?
It's insulting because you act as if someone else's slavery doesn't fit YOUR definition or meet your supposed extreme standards, it isn't real.  You know when i first disagreed with one of your posts, i didn't understand how much like stepping into quicksand it is.  But the more i see intelligent, well-spoken people attempt to discuss things with you, the more i see you do the same things to them you have done repeatedly with me.  You twist their words, you act as if they have no right to claim they are slaves unless they are willing to state that they have no needs, etc.  Last night, you actually told someone their question was flawed!  That blew my mind.  Much like someone's opinions, by definition it couldn't be flawed.  We're not offering up scientific theories here, but simply expressing thoughts.  How can that be flawed?  It's absolutely not insulting when someone's beliefs or opinions don't fit mine.  What IS insulting is when they assert that, because they don't match up, mine are inferior or wrong compared to theirs. 

sometimes the PC-police of this lifestyle make even basic communication impossible. no universal statements can be made on any subject. every single thing is up to individual interpretation
Would you rather a handful of "qualified" individuals interpret them FOR the rest of us?  You're right - there are very few universal statements that can be made and this applies to life in general.  We currently have a thread on these forums discussing the very definitions of what "master," "sub," and "slave" mean.  This should tell you there is much variation on what people consider them to be.  Understanding that many people may have their own definition that does not fit yours just kind of comes with the territory. 

slave can mean "zebra" or "queen nefertiti" if someone says so, and whoever says otherwise is intolerant and offensive
My question to you is: Why do you care what someone else's definition of being a slave is.  Just because they don't think it means exactly what you think it means, how does that mean they are wrong?  i'm not saying your definition of slavery is intolerant or offensive, i'm saying it's not my definition.  That, however, does NOT make mine wrong.
 
obviously everything everyone says here on these boards is their own personal opinion. i have my own personal opinion as to what does and does not define a slave, and i don't think that having a firm view on such a topic makes me a bad person
Absolutely not.  Nor does my view or anyone elses make them "bad," "less" than, or not "real."
after all, i'm sure those who feel differently couldn't really give a darn about what i think about their personal situations anyway
i would say so.  Nor could you care about our thoughts on yours.  After all, someone else's opinions really don't affect our actions in our personal relationships at all........slave luci

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ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

...i tried to do so. i was never successful. so as i said, to have such an impossible demand made of me would naturally make me miserable and feel like a worthless slave to be honest. 

Isn't the worth of a slave determined by the master and not the slave?

edited to add, while the high sex drive slave forbidden to orgasm again might not experience personal happiness or contentment, she will (or should) still be fulfilled because she is able to please her Master by complying with his demands.

And you can categorically say that a slave should be fulfilled, even if she is denied something she needs because she is complying with her master's demands?  This may be according to YOUR dynamic, i don't think you should speak for others because i think a lot will say if they were denied something they felt they needed they would not be fulfilled or happy and most likely leave that situation.

yes, i can categorically state that a slave, in a consensual union, SHOULD be fulfilled by pleasing her Master because that is after all a slave's purpose and top priority in life. if she is not fulfilled by pleasing her Master, even at the expense of personal/selfish desires, then why is she a slave in the first place?

now does that mean she will be happy? no, that is something altogether different. but fulfilled, yes.

i also wanted to add here that while i do feel a slave has needs like everyone else, a slave is not entitled to have those needs met.

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

you are missing her point entirely and there is a point where you just have to say someone has a different mindset than yours.  You can't change her and she can't make you understand her mindset.  Neither is right or wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
How can you make this claim?   If a slave did not have those needs met - she would cease being a slave cause she'd be dead - hard to be focused, devoted and pleasing when your 6 feet under!
You know, velvetears - i think it's all about semantics here.  If Slave A has a master who she absolutely, without a doubt KNOWS would never deny her her basic needs, it's easy to say that He COULD deny them if He chooses and that she would happily and eagerly support that.  i'm willing to stand up right now and proudly announce that if my Master chooses to poke my eyes out with a steak knife tonight, He has the right to and i won't even flinch as i give in to His desire to maim and blind me.  You know WHY i would so eagerly say that?  'Cause i know there ain't a chance in hell that He would ever do me harm like that.  In my opinion, any living, breathing human slave who contends such things simply does it because they know it ain't ever gonna happen.  So, i'm gonna have to concede that much.  Slaves - you should all be ready and willing to accept a blanket denial of your most basic needs (especially if you are certain they are never gonna be denied).  Make sure of that though before you tell your masters or they might just make you follow through on your pledge of undying surrender to any and all torture and deprivation .....slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
And, true, there is no universal right or wrong, but for the first part of this debate, lots of people indicated that daddysprop's way was universally wrong
Not her way as in her way of living her slavery.  But, absolutely to her way of measuring everyone else's level of slavery by hers..........slave luci

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ORIGINAL: minnetar

fine then you aren't a slave and why debate prop when she is?  You have entirely different mindsets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Even if your premise was correct, which I'm not saying it is (I don't know velvetears), how can you say that any member of the forum shouldn't be allowed to participate in a given debate on the forum based on the congruency of labels that the community don't even have a consensus on the definition of (making the labels virtually identical by means of semantic drift, I might add)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
sometimes it makes me wonder why i bother in the first place, and that maybe i should shut up and keep out of where i'm clearly not wanted.
Please don't play the pity card.  You have given as much or more than you have ever gotten, so to speak.  Just because others disagree doesn't mean you don't have as much right as anyone else to speak your mind.  Your definitions and suppositions, admittedly, aren't the same as those of many others.  That doesn't mean you aren't wanted.  Reading something i totally disagree with helps me to become more concrete in just what it is that i do believe.  i would suggest that rather than taking this stance of feeling unwanted, you be a bit more accepting of all those others whose definitions and ideas vary greatly from yours.  It's just as frustrating to me and them, i'm sure, to have to constantly debate even the basic definitions of things in order to have a discourse.  Accept our definitions/concepts for what they are and be willing to agree that, even if they don't fit yours, they have merit and value to those who live by them........slave luci 

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ORIGINAL: minnetar

You were the one who said you are a slave yet in the same breath you are talking about your needs.  Do you understand that a slave has none?

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ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

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ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Your quote above got me to thinking. I wonder if some Dominants do not give pleasure because they fear that doing so will detract from or minimize their Dominance.

I'm willing to bet there are.

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
sometimes it makes me wonder why i bother in the first place, and that maybe i should shut up and keep out of where i'm clearly not wanted.
Please don't play the pity card.  You have given as much or more than you have ever gotten, so to speak.  Just because others disagree doesn't mean you don't have as much right as anyone else to speak your mind.  Your definitions and suppositions, admittedly, aren't the same as those of many others.  That doesn't mean you aren't wanted.  Reading something i totally disagree with helps me to become more concrete in just what it is that i do believe.  i would suggest that rather than taking this stance of feeling unwanted, you be a bit more accepting of all those others whose definitions and ideas vary greatly from yours.  It's just as frustrating to me and them, i'm sure, to have to constantly debate even the basic definitions of things in order to have a discourse.  Accept our definitions/concepts for what they are and be willing to agree that, even if they don't fit yours, they have merit and value to those who live by them........slave luci 

slaveluci, it's not self-pity i feel, but rather fatigue and frustration. i accept that people are going to define everything in the way they wish. what i am not going to do is accept everyone else's definitions and ideas as the truth or reality, even if for them it is. i tend to think in more black and white terms than most, at least regarding certain things. however my definitions of slave, submissive, Dominant, etc...do not come from some self-defined philosophy, nor from any "lifestyle" text, but rather your basic dictionary, with a sprinkling of common sense. it seems odd to me that those who define things based on the dictionary are in the minority, but i've accepted that's just the way it is for the time being.

now, say you have one person in a discussion who defines slave as "submissive," another who defines it as "someone who is owned," another who defines it as "person who wishes to be a slave," another defines it as "figment of someone's imagination," another defines it as "purple cow," and so on. before even the most simple, basic communication on any lifestyle subject can take place, each person must detail and clarify how they personally define the word slave, and everyone else must understand and accept this definition and then edit their thoughts accordingly (to not cause offense or leave anyone out). this is what happens often on this board, to the point where often discussions are lost entirely and many throw up their hands in frustration and walk away. it also hinders free and open dialogue, which is what i believe many of us here for in the first place. if one must take care to ensure their thoughts will not cause offense to anyone and to add disclaimers (such as imo, ymmv) generously throughout before typing a single sentence, then how is that open discussion?

and heck i've done it myself in this very thread...defining, editing, apologizing, redefining, more editing, throwing in disclaimers, etc....to the point where i have to remind myself of my own thread topic (which was what again? *pulling out hair*)

(in reply to slaveluci)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
i also wanted to add here that while i do feel a slave has needs like everyone else, a slave is not entitled to have those needs met.

If I were brand new and this was the first post I ever read regarding what a slave should and should not be, I would run screaming from this lifestyle and never look back.

quote:

Even if we take it down to the most basic needs of food, water and shelter....all human beings require that those needs be met or death is imminent.

quote:

Self preservation is a naturally occurring instinct that drives us to do everything within our power to get those needs met.

quote:

To say that to be a slave you must either stifle that instinct or lack it is insulting.

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Not her way as in her way of living her slavery.  But, absolutely to her way of measuring everyone else's level of slavery by hers..........slave luci