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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 12:07:28 PM

popeye1250

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They're not covered under the G.C.'s
They wearn't "in uniform". You could mistake them for anyone else because of their mode of dress.
They should just shoot them as spies.

(in reply to Archer)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 1:19:41 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

However the case as it stands is relatively simple combatats legal or illegal are not afforded the same constitutional rights,

So the Government's stance is "The right of LIBERTY, despite the Declaration of Independence, IS NOT INALIENABLE".

The purpose of the CURRENT Government is NOT TO SECURE THOSE RIGHTS, but the decide WHO may have they have decided are instead, privileges.

The Declaration of Independence clearly covers this exact situation, doesn't it.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 1:21:22 PM

farglebargle

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Then Universal Declaration of Human Rights trumps the Geneva Conventions.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

There's more, but you get the idea..

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 8:32:43 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I imagine the inmates of Gitmo qualify as "any person within its jurisdiction."

Thank you for making farglebargle's point, lockedaway.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 8:46:14 PM

lockedaway

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Geez Synergy, did you tune in late? I take it you didn't read all of the posts. To bring you up to speed, read posts 32, 38, 66 and 69. Also read what was said by Archer and Eric. Oh...don't try to compete with Archer, by the way, you'll only embarass yourself. I'll say it once again, the 14th Amendment does not apply to people being detained because they are suspected of terrorism. Got it? Do you understand it? The subject matter is NOT within the purview of our state courts, nor should it be. But I would be VERY interested in knowing why you would want it to be.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 8:49:51 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I imagine the inmates of Gitmo qualify as "any person within its jurisdiction."

Thank you for making farglebargle's point, lockedaway.

Sinergy

yes they are using war time rules against them and no war has been declared or am i missing something here?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/28/2007 8:50:47 PM >

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 8:55:58 PM

lockedaway

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LOLOLOL what a load of horse maneur. Hey Fargle, what statute or code do you cite to for your assertion that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which says nothing about enemy combatants, the rights pertaining to them, military tribunals, etc.) trumps the Geneva Convention? Are terrorists High Contracting Parties? Does the Geneva Convention apply to terrorists? (pssssst...the answer is NO)

(in reply to farglebargle)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 8:58:46 PM

lockedaway

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Yeah...you're missing something. The Geneva Convention, or as you would say "war time rules" is NOT being applied to terrorists because....well....it does not apply to terrorists. That is one of the big arguments, that the Geneva Convention should be applied to the detainees. If you read the Geneva Convention you will see why it shouldn't be applied to detainees suspected of terrorism and applying it to them would only further encourage terrorism.

(in reply to Real0ne)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:06:05 PM

luckydog1

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farg you need to check your meds again. the 14th amendment does not use the word "government" so it is certainly not using it synomously with "state". You are just making that up out of whole cloth. So you are asserting that the 14th amendment applies to France and Sudan? They are states as you define them. What you are missing is that the 14th does not refer to any person, it refers to any person with in the jurisdiciton of a state. You can't pull words or phrases out of context. And people captured by the Feds in Afganistan do not meet that criteria.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:11:16 PM

lockedaway

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Luckydog, how right you are. Of course, Archer has told him that, I have, Eric has and I think one or more people have as well. Go check out posts 32, 38, 66 and 69 where sections of the Constitution are diagramed for Fargle. Yes, he could be off his meds or it could be that he has nothing better to do than blog this crap knowing that he is going to get a response from people that love their country.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:16:25 PM

luckydog1

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What we have to understand is that words mean whatever Farg wants them to at any paticular time, and only uneducated morons disagree. And we have to accept that even thought the constitution says that the Courts are the arbiter of constitutionality, He reserves that right to him self. Which in any honest sense tells us that he is opposed to the Constitution, and explains why he wants the things he does. He is no the only one on here doing this. He explicitly states that he rejects the authority of the Constitution.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:17:32 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Geez Synergy, did you tune in late? I take it you didn't read all of the posts. To bring you up to speed, read posts 32, 38, 66 and 69. Also read what was said by Archer and Eric. Oh...don't try to compete with Archer, by the way, you'll only embarass yourself. I'll say it once again, the 14th Amendment does not apply to people being detained because they are suspected of terrorism. Got it? Do you understand it? The subject matter is NOT within the purview of our state courts, nor should it be. But I would be VERY interested in knowing why you would want it to be.

I dont recall anything written in the Bill of Rights about terrorism.

Thank you for again clarifying the point farglebargle is making.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:21:18 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

LOLOLOL what a load of horse maneur. Hey Fargle, what statute or code do you cite to for your assertion that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which says nothing about enemy combatants, the rights pertaining to them, military tribunals, etc.) trumps the Geneva Convention? Are terrorists High Contracting Parties? Does the Geneva Convention apply to terrorists? (pssssst...the answer is NO)

As somebody who has been involved in cyberspace as an alleged hacker and webmaster since the early 1980s, I would like to mention that resorting to insults generally makes other readers think less of the person posting.

If you want to provide relevant factual information, please do so. If you want the internet to believe something is true because you think it is, I wish you luck using that approach, but I doubt you will get much success out of it.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:21:40 PM

luckydog1

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Locked, we signed the Geneva conventions, they are Law above the Constitution, as the Constitution defines Treaties to be. The UDHR was passed by the General Assembly of the UN. It was never ratified by the Senate, and is not law over the USA in any sense of the word. Farg seems to be saying that since it was passed by the UN (A charter Orginization not a treaty Orginization), it is binding law. So in his world, actions of the UN General Assembly take precedence over the US Constitution. Or perhaps only when he wants them to? Really the question is whether he is actually this incapable of reading and critical thinking, or if he knows he is full of shit and pushing this for a deeper agenda.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:21:45 PM

lockedaway

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I don't know what you are talking about and so it isn't worth responding to you. Read the preamble to the Constitution. Read the posts that I directed you to...that might help. Right now you are just wasting post space.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:24:40 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I imagine the inmates of Gitmo qualify as "any person within its jurisdiction."

Thank you for making farglebargle's point, lockedaway.

Sinergy

yes they are using war time rules against them and no war has been declared or am i missing something here?

The Bill Of Rights only applies during wartime?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Real0ne)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:27:01 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I don't know what you are talking about and so it isn't worth responding to you. Read the preamble to the Constitution. Read the posts that I directed you to...that might help. Right now you are just wasting post space.

The technology does not exist that could detect my interest in your opinion about my use or misuse of bandwidth.

Sinergy

edited to refer you to my post about using insults in cyberspace.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to lockedaway)

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:27:17 PM

lockedaway

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Luckydog, great post! Yes, UDHR is meaningless to this current discussion. Fargle is nefarious. Either he is just wasting everybody's time b/c he is bored or he really wants his country weakened by the things he appears to be arguing for. I get the impression from Fargle that he is one of these "one world" loons that believes that this country's interests should be determined by some world body, etc. etc. Yes, there are a great many people wandering around the hill country of New York State in places like Ithaca, etc. that would LOVE the actions of the UN General Assembly to take precedence over the U.S. Constitution.

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:39:58 PM

popeye1250

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Fargle, al qeada is not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions the last time I checked.
A country or "org" like al qeada doesn't get the protections of the G.C. unless they are a signatory.
Why should they? The protections were meant as a "carrot" to get non-signatories into the G.C.
It's not a "one-way" document i.e. we have to be nice to their prisoners but non-signatories don't have to be nice to our prisoners.
Non-signatories get no "priviledges."
You want to be treated "nice" you have to join the "club."

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RE: "Senators vow to restore rights to detainees&q... - 4/28/2007 9:43:00 PM

lockedaway

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Popeye, you are exactly right. And by conveying to the detainees the protections in the GC you only encourage more people NOT to act under the colors of a country but as terrorists. That is why it is fundamentally unsound to grant GC protections to people being detained for allegedly being involved in terrorism.

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