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RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 10:20:28 AM

angelinbondage

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/27/2005
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Nope; I chose the right word for what I wanted to discuss. I realize that there is a difference between power and control, and many different levels of each, both on their own and in direct relation to each other. Since it can get pretty confusing after a while, I am choosing to focus on one topic at a time.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 21

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 11:49:20 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
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quote:

A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips.

This is interesting..I usually don't care to get into black/white terms as we all know there is a lot of grey area in our lifestyle, but I am compelled to give my opinion on this. First off I respect sub/slaves (no, I won't debate the differences here ..smiles) and their up-front rights in a relationship. Yes, the "leave" option is there, but for the sake of this discussion I am not going to let that play in my thinking and I will assume that this relationship is established.

.

So, does the sub/slave actually have the control? A resounding...NO. Yes, they have input, yes they can make suggestions, NO they are not generally involved in making the decisions on major items..that is the entire point of the power exchange in the first place. Why would anyone think circumventing that would be in anyone's best interest. If the sub/slave intended to maintain control they would not have entered into a D/s relationship in the first place. To those who say, oh no, the sub has the control, they have their safe word, they negotiate before hand...no, not really. Let's assume in that case we are talking about a scene here. Yes preperations are done, yes negotiations are made, yes safewords are established, yes it is assumed that their wishes will be adhered to..but they do not have control, especially in a private scene. Playing devils advocate here, keep this in mind, it is ultimately the Dominants choice of whether to make a conscience decision to recognize and discipline oneself within those pre-established groundrules. In other words, the Dominant has the ultimate control, he/she makes the choices, not the bound and possibly gagged sub/slave. When that last cuff clasp/lock/snap clicks, the control has been transferrred, nothing is more ultimate than that. Recognizing limits or safewords is in the Dominants hands (& mind), no input from the sub/slave has any bearing on the scene at all, at that point. Yes, we would certainly hope the sub/slave's safety would be paramount and limits would be respected, but the Dominant really does have that choice. With all due respect, I do see somewhat the OPs point as far as the setting of the rules and this could be misconstrued as having control, but rules are like laws, they are guidelines and nothing more, no one self destructs by crossing that line.

_____________________________

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(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 22

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 11:51:06 AM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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Ravenna, you have put it very succinctly. While the bottom must take some responsibility in a scene and in a relationship as an adult, the whole point of being the bottom for most of us is to be out of control.

Like you, I have developed whole scenes, or ideas, and had my input taken...but during the actual scene the only control I maintain is a safeword. It's up to me to be in control of how I use that safeword.

If I use my safeword to take charge of the scene then I have probably lost my submissive headspace for some reason, and I hate when that happens. Luckily it is rare. But it usually means there is a problem with my connection to the dominant I am playing with.

If I use it to alert him to an emotional, or physical issue (unpleasant fear, severe pain, a rope that is cutting off circulation) then I am taking responsibility as an adult.

As much as many of us have moments in the lifestyle when we long to truly give up every shred of control and responsibility, it's just a fantasy. Life does not allow it. Thankfully we can have moments that come so close to true, complete lose of control that we can experience that bliss.

Cin

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Cin

quote:

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(in reply to ravenna)

Post #: 23

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 12:20:51 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSilvie
I've heard this said also, and I don't agree with it any more than I think one person has all the power in any relationship. A submissive should be able to veto (safeword)

My sentiments exactly. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MsSilvie)

Post #: 24

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 3:36:08 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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The sub and the dom both have to agree and actively engage in the relationship in order for there to be a relationship- neither has power over the other in this sense.

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 25

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 5:49:18 PM

liltxsubby

Posts: 328
Joined: 11/18/2004
From: TX
Status: offline

The last time I heard that the sub has all the control was when I was involved in online D/s. Since I've (thankfully) moved into the r/t realm, it hasn't came up.

I think, just like with any other relationship, both parties have some amount of control. I am speaking from a submissive point of view, not a slave's, for those that think there might be a difference in the two. Either the Dom or the sub can end the relationship. Either the Dom or the sub can do things that are detrimental to the relationship that cause it to go sour.

In day to day life though, I think that the Dom has more control than the sub. Isn't that the point? The sub sumbits her (or his) control the the dominant. Sure the sub may be able to contribute opinions and ideas, but ultimately the Dominant has the final say.

I don't think that having a safeword means the sub has all the power, it's just a means of keeping things safe.

I wonder if I should try telling FnF that I have all the control? I think he'd laugh and tell me to get over his lap so he could show me how much control I have.

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Laugh with them, or let them laugh at you.

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 26

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/1/2005 11:20:17 PM

ravenna

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/22/2004
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Thanks, vancouver_cinful, a lot of us seem to be on the same frequency, and for those of us on a different frequency, well, different vibes for different lives, right? No one here is saying my way is the only true way (most of us aren't, anyway).

But at the risk of prying the lid off the can of worms again, i'll throw in two more cents to the who's really in charge here debate. i don't have a safeword, except under special circumstances, so i can't use that route to take control. Lots of us seem to not have a safeword, not just me. And i don't have the right to ask for one, though i suppose i could and take my chances; if i made a good case for special circumstances or an unusual concern on my part, they probably would give me one, and if they did they would adhere to it, that's the kind of guys they are. However, unless i'm gagged and immobilized so i can't even wiggle a pinkie i can still provide my owners with relevant information, and if i can provide it i am required to do so, it is my responsibility to them in order to help protect their property. Informing my masters that one rope may be a lot tighter than they thought it was still leaves all the control and the decision up to them, although they are responsible enough to take this kind of information seriously. Who wants a one-legged slave, anyway? (Shut my mouth, i take that back, it's a big wide weird world and of course there's someone out there who does want a one-legged slave, what was i thinking?) And if i am gagged and immobile and icommunicado, well, that just raises the stakes of trust for the slave, doesn't it?

i also don't have the right to leave or to end the relationship, or to "turn it vanilla" or whatever. Yes, we all know the law, in fact one of my guys describes himself as a "recovering attorney." And i suppose if the mood struck me (and if Hell froze over) i could make a break for freedom and try to flag down a cop and tell him my breathless tale of real-life enslavement and throw myself on his mercy. Or if i were utterly miserable i suppose i could shut down and "pull a Bartleby," become withdrawn and unresponsive and inert until they had to take action or make a big change in my life, like selling me or turning me loose. i'd have to make big trouble, in other words, not just say, "Time out, guys, i changed my mind."

In fact i explicitly gave up any right to reverse my enslavement when i surrendered to their ownership, and they have the right to overrule or ignore any pleas on my part to the contrary, and even to hold me forcibly to my surrender of my freedom, against my will if necessary. i know, i know, the law disagrees, but in practice unless i really stage an honest-to-God jail break, i'm their property for life. (Legalistic loophole: There are also contracts that ensure my right to opt out of their service on my sixtieth birthday if i so choose. But unless my owners decide they really have no use for a sixty-year-old sex slave and want me gone, it seems vanishingly improbable to all of us that i'll really want to wiggle through this loophole...)

(Geez, wrap it up, ravenna!) So here's my bottom line (sorry, pun intended ;-). i don't think i'm very unusual, as slaves go. i hear lots of slaves and would-be slaves say they want permanent, irrevocable, lifetime enslavement (to the right owner, of course), not just loss of control until they're a little bored or it hurts a little more than they expected or they want to have a girls' night out on the wrong night. i think wanting and needing to surrender total control to an owner is a bone-deep, soul-deep hunger for some of us, and maybe if we're lucky, very lucky, we get enslaved for life and get to find out what it is that we're really hungry for...

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 27

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 3:10:53 AM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelinbondage

A friend of mine made a comment during one of our rambling discussions; he said that in a D/s relationship, the sub ultimately has the control. It makes perfect sense to me, but it is the first time I have heard those words come from a master's lips. What is everyone's opinion on this?

I suppose if one takes the position that the dominant comes to the submissive as a supplicant, seeking the boon of her submission, your friend would be correct. For myself, I look at it a little differently. I have no interest in a submissive that desires to control the relationship and will quickly walk away from one who makes an attempt to do so.
A successful relationship is a team effort and I expect my girl to work with me. She's not here because she wants to be team captain but because she knows I am better suited for that role. I don't "control" the relationship, I guide it for both our sakes.
Timothy

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 28

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 5:48:10 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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Once again this is why I choose to use the term "authority transfer"

I don't "exchange power" with the Owner. I have my power, he has his. In many ways I have become MORE powerful as his slave as I have grown and become more skilled with him.

He has ultimately authority over how I use my power.

Control? I actually think that's a very limited thing. Unless you are physically manipulating something, you have, at best, indirect control over the situation. The Owner can tell me what to wear, but unless he's physically dressing me, I'm still in control of getting dressed. This is why self-discipline is one of the highest priorities in slavery.

Relationships require active participation from everyone involved. No one should be "more involved" than the other. The Owner has all of the authority, but we both need and employ our own power and control within the relationship to make it work.

And the reality is, if you're seriously asking yourself "who has the authority in this relationship?" then its a sign that you need to step back and discuss things.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

Post #: 29

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 6:00:56 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

Yikes Lily - why can I not say stuff like that without waffling? Wish I had thought of that word difference, can I patent it?

Peace and Love

Thanks for the nice compliment sweets. You can patent it, wear it as a new outfit, or anything else you'd like ;)

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 30

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 6:04:47 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Nope; I chose the right word for what I wanted to discuss. I realize that there is a difference between power and control, and many different levels of each, both on their own and in direct relation to each other. Since it can get pretty confusing after a while, I am choosing to focus on one topic at a time.

*waves at AIB*

Well, then he's not such a smart guy after all if he actually used the word control, rather than power. I disagree wholeheartedly that the submissive is in control. If she or he is, then there's a serious problem here.

I had the power to continue to remain in collar or walk away; however, I NEVER had any control over what my owner was going to do.

Albeit the differances may seem subtle to you, to me they are enourmous.

Lily

< Message edited by ProtagonistLily -- 5/2/2005 6:07:59 AM >

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 31

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 6:36:53 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
I had the power to continue to remain in collar or walk away; however, I NEVER had any control over what my owner was going to do.

Yes but in reality he had very little control over what you were going to do- except in the physically forcing type sense.

What he had was authority over you. That, too, is a subtle difference between control and authority.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 32

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 7:48:23 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

Whether we call it power control or authority, there's a debate that I've seen roll around several times in different forums over the last few years. The debate I see most often boils down to whether or not the submissive is running the show, based on the fact that she can use her safeword or even walk away. I often hear folks on both side of the slash defending the idea that it is, in fact, the submissive who ultimately decides how things go and how fast.
While I do understand that the ability to walk away is, indeed, a power that must be acknowledged, I don't understand why it generally seems to only be attributed to those on the right of the slash. It seems clear to me that if either party can walk away, the issue is moot. Similarly, while a bottom can stop the action with a safeword, the top can decline to play at all. The juice is equalized and there is no inherent advantage to either side.
OTOH, it's my personal opinion that there are more yearning to serve than there are those worthy of service, so on a larger scale the numerical advantage may well lie with those of us on the left of the slash. I don't, however, have statistics to back up my opinion (before anyone asks) so it may be a geographic anomaly. In any case, I think the proper focus, as has been previously suggested, is on the viability of the relationship.
Timothy

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 33

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 11:02:52 PM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravenna

This seems to be a fundamental tenet of the SSC gospel (on which i am totally not an expert), that the submissive's consent is the basic condition for the whole power exchange, and if it's withdrawn or put on hold the entire relationship, or at least the scene, comes to a screaming halt, so i've heard lots of people say things like "the bottom is always ultimately in control." Well, maybe it really works that way for submissives, maybe that's a good thing, and maybe that's another thing that makes submissives different from slaves, i don't know -- but i'm a slave, and i'm almost never in control. i do get to offer lots of input and suggestions and ideas and at any given moment we might even be doing a whole thing that i thought up and suggested and figured out the details and got them excited about doing, but once we're launched into action i am NOT in control, and it's NOT up to me where the scene goes or when it stops or where we land when we get there and whether my ass will be sore for a week afterward. And i don't want to be in control, i'm the slave here...

i agree with planet ravenna.

(in reply to ravenna)

Post #: 34

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 11:28:45 PM

harmony3709

Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FuriousAngel

I've heard many Dominants express this theory. To me it comes down the very nitty, gritty reality of life. A slave/sub can't legally be kept without consent. Therefore, if they wish to retract their submission, they can do so - cut and dry. If a submissive wakes up one day and decides she no longer wishes to have a power exchange, she can leave - hence the 'ultimate control' theory.

The way I've always understood this theory is that it is meant to apply for situations where a submissive wishes to leave the relationship. For her to retract her submission based on her mood at the time, or to use it as a way to control the relationship and when she chooses to submit would be considered a different matter completely. She has the right to walk away ... hence, the ultimate control.

I agree with FuriousAngel 100%. When I have heard this theory expressed it has usually been with the concept of ultimate control being a choice to remain in a relationship or leave, and not with regard to a consensual ongoing relationship or even an individual scene. Obviously this "ultimate control" applies to both (or all) parties in the relationship.

I must admit that I am surprised when I hear someone state (no matter what your position is in that relationship) that they could not utter the words that they wish to leave the relationship, mean it, and do so. Once that happens and you are NOT permitted to leave -- that is no longer a consensual BDSM relationship. That is holding someone against their will, not a D/s or M/s relationship. You must consent to give up your control and as soon as that consent is revoked -- which you have the right to do at any time -- the control is turned back over to the submissive or slave.

Be well and play safe,
harmony

(in reply to FuriousAngel)

Post #: 35

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/2/2005 11:59:19 PM

ravenna

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/22/2004
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Okay. Then i guess my owners and i are actually not in a "D/s or M/s relationship." And after all, that makes sense. None of this started because one of us said, "I really want to be in a D/s or M/s relationship, and I read that this is how one of those works, looks like jolly fun, won't you join me?" What actually happened way back when, and what keeps happening every day, is that they demanded that i surrender myself to them and i begged to become their property. (Almost simultaneously. Odd but true. Must be fate.) The result is that now they own me and i'm their property. And my owners make the rules for our lives, not their slave, and they couldn't care less about conforming to the "official rules" of D/s and M/s relationships.

(Sorry, didn't mean to get snarky! Different lives, different vibes, as my girlfriend says...)

(in reply to harmony3709)

Post #: 36

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/3/2005 12:16:03 AM

harmony3709

Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravenna

Okay. Then i guess my owners and i are actually not in a "D/s or M/s relationship."

I never said or implied that and know nothing of your relationship in order to make any comment on it.

quote:

And my owners make the rules for our lives, not their slave, and they couldn't care less about conforming to the "official rules" of D/s and M/s relationships.

I guess you didn't get the official handbook with the official rules that they hand out with the official union card at the official BDSM Union National Convention. If you like, I can let you borrow mine. Otherwise, if they are not following the official rules, the official BDSM Police may appear at your door and haul them off to the official BDSM jail.

*that was a joke -- let's not take things too seriously*

My point only is that BDSM is based on consensual activities. In theory, at least, since I certainly don't claim to be the expert of all that is holy and BDSM. You may interpret "consensual" any way you like or define a BDSM relationship any way you like. As always -- your milage may vary.

Be well,

harmony

(in reply to ravenna)

Post #: 37

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/3/2005 4:28:17 AM

BobcatsLilMinx

Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

Gods, this is something we Minxes run around in our brains time and again, like little hamsters in a wheel.

I very definitely do not want to be in charge, I want to be my Master's slave. But from time to time, as happens in life, something interferes and I find myself, for example, "not in the mood", or even plain unable to obey a command. And for me, the shame of having to admit I would rather not carry out a direction tonight is almost unbearable. A lot of times I try to put my own feelings aside, and remind myself that he is in charge. But having said that, I also know he prefers to know exactly how I'm feeling, and whats going on in my head, so even though one or two of me feels we should just obey, there's another couple who know we should admit what's going on in our head. And when it gets said, he generally permits me to be excused from obeying. (Of course, this doesn't apply to punishments - begs and pleas are ignoerd until he decides I've had enough).

But it troubles me, I hate the idea of topping from the bottom. He reassures me that he only follows my suggestions as far as he wants to, that if he didn't also think it was a good idea, it wouldn't get done. And besides, what am I supposed to do, never voice an opinion, afraid that it may sway his? Never tell him if something really REALLY is unbearably painful? Assume he knows what I'm thinking/ feeling, if I don't tell him?

This is one of those things where I just have to trust that if he really didn't agree with me, if he really didn't want me to do something, or really did, then he would maintain his position of authority. I know he has made me do things I didn't want to do, things we have even fought about and I have cried over, and still ended up submitting to his decision. I don't know though - does that final consent and agreement to do it anyway count as my having the final say? If I ever did refuse outright, then I know that would be the end, because there's no point pretending to have a D/s relationship if one of you isn't going to "play by the rules" laid down in that relationship. So I guess that is, as someone else said, always an option. But to me, it isn't an option to consider, except in an extreme situation, or if I realise our relationship is already dead, or something.....

Hope I haven't rambled on too long, hehe, making up for my absence this last week!
With respect,
Minx

(in reply to angelinbondage)

Post #: 38

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/3/2005 5:52:32 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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You bring up an excellent point and something that often becomes a point of contention in submissives- so often they say they want/need their owners to love and cherish and be aware and care about how they feel and what will work for them. But then the moment they have to COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY what it is that they feel and want and have the owner take that into consideration, they freak out about topping or being in control or somehow actually having an influence.

The only other option is for doms to be psychic- an option which I honestly see many subs trying to take.

(in reply to BobcatsLilMinx)

Post #: 39

RE: The submissive is in charge? - 5/3/2005 7:23:34 AM

ruffnecksbabygir

Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
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very interesting thread! too bad, as usual, i don't have the time to go through it all.
i kinda believe the sub/slave ultimately has the control only because really, it's the bottom that gives themselves to the dominant out of their own will, they are allowing the dominant to control them, so doesn't that make them have the control? On the other hand, i know my Master has complete control of my life, so it is kind of like what one of the posters said here, "which came first" type deal.

As far as the sub having more control than the slave, or vice versa, as someone pointed out here, i would think that the slave essentially has less control .... i am a slave to my Master, i have no safeword, i have no limits, i do not even consider for a second not doing what i am told to do by my Master. My idea of a sub, and i am not trying to get into a sub vs. slave argument here at all, i don't feel one is better than the other, at all.....i realize also that not every slave is the same, or every submissive, but i just sincerely wonder, something i hadn't thought about before this thread and am genuinely curious about, doesn't a slave submit in a deeper level, or have much less power/control, than a submissive? again, this is a legit question, not trying to spark any rants or arguments about subs and slaves.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 40

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