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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 8:53:09 AM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		It is too easy to buy a gun in he US and that point is proven over and over again by simply turning on the local news.  I would love for all guns to just go away, but as many have pointed out, that won't happen.  Guns should be registered so that when one is stolen and used for crime, the gun can be traced and the criminal  more likely to be found.  Background checks should be done on every sale.  Why would anyone object to not wanting to sell a gun to someone who is unstable, has arrest warrants, a history of violence, etc?  Also, a waiting period should be enforced.... how many people need a gun all of a sudden?  I also think that gun owners should be encouraged to properly secure their guns... having them locked and away from the hands of children.  The constitution gives us the right to bear arms...  it doesn't mention a waiting period or other restrictions.  If gun owners don't want to own their guns with safety considerations to protect all of us, they don't have to own a gun at all. 

Wanting to have people own guns safely, and to not wish to pass them out to every madman and criminal on the streets does not a "Gun grabber" make. 

People kill people, and people with guns kill even more people.  If everyone has a gun, and we are all on an "even" playing ground.... it's still the unstable, criminal-minded who will use them for destruction. Keeping guns away from people like that is imperative.

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 11:33:03 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
Guns should be registered so that when one is stolen and used for crime, the gun can be traced and the criminal  more likely to be found. 


How exactly is that going to work? If a registered gun is stolen and used for a crime, all that's known about it is where it was stolen from, and where it turned up. It's when someone uses their own registered gun for a crime, and the gun is found, that registration can actually be useful to law enforcement. More commonly, however, it's been used as a prelude to large-scale confiscation.

quote:


Background checks should be done on every sale.  Why would anyone object to not wanting to sell a gun to someone who is unstable, has arrest warrants, a history of violence, etc?  Also, a waiting period should be enforced.... how many people need a gun all of a sudden? 


But i'm angry NOW!

Actually, what these measures do is require all firearm transactions to take place through a licensed dealer. Unlike pretty much any other trade item you could name (except, as pointed out, prescription drugs), an individual could not sell to another individual. This means that every time the gun changes hands, someone is siphoning off money without adding value to the transaction (if that isn't a sign of government at work, i don't know what is...) The net result of this is that law-abiding citizens who want guns can find themselves priced out of the market (particularly the urban poor, who are most likely to need some way to defend themselves), while the illicit trade in firearms is actually encouraged. As an example, i could legally purchase a fully-automatic AK-47 for somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000US. Meanwhile, a disassembled parts kit (missing the main body of the firearm, known as the receiver, along with a few key internal parts) would cost less than $200, and the remaining work and materials to build an illegal firearm, with the proper machine tools and a bit of research, is fairly inexpensive. Since i am a law-abiding citizen, i am unable to have one. But if i wanted one badly enough to break the law, i could have one. We won't even get into the fact that the parts kit would have started out as a complete, operational automatic rifle which cost the importer less than $100. The point is that all of the various laws (and the Byzantine laws surrounding firearms manufacture, sale, and ownership across the U.S. are absolutely mind-boggling, and quite prone to making criminals of people with innocent intentions) have a distinct cost to the end-user that can end up being prohibitive and even counter-productive.

...dave

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 12:01:13 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Meatclever, if you don't like the U.S. or our laws and customs fine, then don't come here.
Also I don't think Holland should have legalized cannabis.
You sound like you've been smoking the Hippy Lettuce.

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 2:45:42 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Meatcleaver
Cho's were legal and I'd be interested to know in how many of the other mass killings the killer posssessed legal weapons.


This point has been answered by numerous posters.
Given that he went "off his trolley" the lack of weapons to oppose him was a major problem. NO ?

It being deemed, if not illegal, at least unacceptable that weapons should be available on college campuses.

If we were starting from somewhere else I would not agree with US citizens bearing arms, but we are not.
I believe for instance that house burglary in the US is virtually non existant. Is that true, anybody ?

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 3:03:17 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
Guns should be registered so that when one is stolen and used for crime, the gun can be traced and the criminal  more likely to be found. 


How exactly is that going to work? If a registered gun is stolen and used for a crime, all that's known about it is where it was stolen from, and where it turned up. It's when someone uses their own registered gun for a crime, and the gun is found, that registration can actually be useful to law enforcement. More commonly, however, it's been used as a prelude to large-scale confiscation.

quote:


Background checks should be done on every sale.  Why would anyone object to not wanting to sell a gun to someone who is unstable, has arrest warrants, a history of violence, etc?  Also, a waiting period should be enforced.... how many people need a gun all of a sudden? 


But i'm angry NOW!

Actually, what these measures do is require all firearm transactions to take place through a licensed dealer. Unlike pretty much any other trade item you could name (except, as pointed out, prescription drugs), an individual could not sell to another individual. This means that every time the gun changes hands, someone is siphoning off money without adding value to the transaction (if that isn't a sign of government at work, i don't know what is...) The net result of this is that law-abiding citizens who want guns can find themselves priced out of the market (particularly the urban poor, who are most likely to need some way to defend themselves), while the illicit trade in firearms is actually encouraged. As an example, i could legally purchase a fully-automatic AK-47 for somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000US. Meanwhile, a disassembled parts kit (missing the main body of the firearm, known as the receiver, along with a few key internal parts) would cost less than $200, and the remaining work and materials to build an illegal firearm, with the proper machine tools and a bit of research, is fairly inexpensive. Since i am a law-abiding citizen, i am unable to have one. But if i wanted one badly enough to break the law, i could have one. We won't even get into the fact that the parts kit would have started out as a complete, operational automatic rifle which cost the importer less than $100. The point is that all of the various laws (and the Byzantine laws surrounding firearms manufacture, sale, and ownership across the U.S. are absolutely mind-boggling, and quite prone to making criminals of people with innocent intentions) have a distinct cost to the end-user that can end up being prohibitive and even counter-productive.

...dave



If a gun is stolen and used for crime, any information found can help lead to the criminal.  Perhaps the state/city/evidence in burglary, etc.  Most pro-gun people seem far more concerned with having their gun taken by the mean old "gun grabbers" than they do by all the crime and deaths that could be prevented if we thought of gun law solutions, instead of just having guns.

Uh-oh, NOW you're angry... well, then you are a prime candidate to go buy a gun without a waiting period. 

Gun sales by individuals without regulation should be restricted.  An individual should not be able to hand a potent killing tool over to just anyone, and quite frankly, why would someone want to.  Also,  criminals seem to have the most money to spend on weapons, so the dirty money is making the individuals richer and handing a "legal" gun over to a criminal..  There are gun shops where guns could be legally sold or traded, and then re-sold with the proper background checks/waitng periods/registration., thus limiting criminal purchases of firearms. 

There are soultions, but most gun people only care about 'their gun', and not about the crime they presently cause and what can be done to limit it.  This mentality is not one that goes hand in hand with responsible weapon ownership.. in my opinion.

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 3:49:14 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Hmm Just done a little quick research (I might not be 100% right here). It doesn't seem to be outlaws that are committing these mass killings but people with legally held guns.


Well this is where the old switcheroo takes place, MC. As soon as a law abiding gun owner commits a gun crime they are no longer a law abiding gun owner. What's more, they never were one. Their membership in the law abiding gun owners club is not only revoked, it is expunged and utterly disavowed, with soviet style revisionist vigor. In this way the law abiding gun owners can evade moral responsibility for gun crime; there are not, and never have been, any criminals in their ranks. Presto!

I’m not saying that law abiding gun owners are 100% responsible for gun crime but they certainly are NOT blameless, as they would have us believe. Legal gun sales are a conduit for guns used in crimes, both premeditated and of the moment. Gun theft is another source of black-market firearms.

A registry won’t prevent legal guns from falling into the hands of criminals or from being used criminally by their legal owners. A registry will assist in the investigation and prevention of gun crimes and will hopefully inspire gun owners to take greater care storing their firearms, to avoid liability for failing to do so.

Gun owners must be willing to accept limits on ownership and more responsibility for ownership. You want them – do your part controlling them.


Z.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 4:31:25 PM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline 		Various types of deaths in the U. S. in 2004

Gun related, homicide : 11,250
Gun related, suicide : 16,603
Gun related, legal intervention : 4,750
Fall related : 18,536
Vehicle related : 43,947

According to those statistics, you are almost 4 times as likely to die in a car wreck than to be murdered by a firearm. You are more likely to fall to your death in the shower than to be shot and killed. The solution seems obvious... we must ban vehicles, ladders, and showers!

Just as some countries relate a cucumber in a bag to a gun crime, gun control advocates often flub the statistics by dumping legal shootings by police and suicides into the overall mix of handgun deaths in order to inflate the numbers to their seeming advantage.

http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/?p=1725




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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/28/2007 4:39:04 PM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee


Gun owners must be willing to accept limits on ownership and more responsibility for ownership. You want them – do your part controlling them.


Z.



I agree with you 100% on this one. If I own a vicious dog it is my responsibility to keep it from attacking innocent pedestrian. If I am behind the wheel of a car it is my responsibility to maintain control of that vehicle. And if I own a firearm it is my responsibility to see that it is not misused. This is not to say that if someone were to break into my home I would not let the dog maul them, shoot them, then drive over them in my car for good measure.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 12:33:00 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Well this is where the old switcheroo takes place, MC. As soon as a law abiding gun owner commits a gun crime they are no longer a law abiding gun owner. What's more, they never were one. Their membership in the law abiding gun owners club is not only revoked, it is expunged and utterly disavowed, with soviet style revisionist vigor. In this way the law abiding gun owners can evade moral responsibility for gun crime; there are not, and never have been, any criminals in their ranks. Presto!



So true Zensee, so true.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 12:38:06 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

Various types of deaths in the U. S. in 2004

Gun related, homicide : 11,250
Gun related, suicide : 16,603
Gun related, legal intervention : 4,750
Fall related : 18,536
Vehicle related : 43,947

According to those statistics, you are almost 4 times as likely to die in a car wreck than to be murdered by a firearm. You are more likely to fall to your death in the shower than to be shot and killed. The solution seems obvious... we must ban vehicles, ladders, and showers!

Just as some countries relate a cucumber in a bag to a gun crime, gun control advocates often flub the statistics by dumping legal shootings by police and suicides into the overall mix of handgun deaths in order to inflate the numbers to their seeming advantage.


I've said in another thread, count the bodies, they can't be slipped into the out tray unnoticed, the rest of the stats aren't reliable.

What has cars to do with shooting people. While a death is a death, accidents are a different to murders and cars are not designed to kill.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 3:32:09 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Meatcleaver
Cho's were legal and I'd be interested to know in how many of the other mass killings the killer posssessed legal weapons.


This point has been answered by numerous posters.
Given that he went "off his trolley" the lack of weapons to oppose him was a major problem. NO ?

It being deemed, if not illegal, at least unacceptable that weapons should be available on college campuses.

If we were starting from somewhere else I would not agree with US citizens bearing arms, but we are not.
I believe for instance that house burglary in the US is virtually non existant. Is that true, anybody ?



it happens all the time.  my house was burglized once.   knosck on wood just once.   he found himslf looking down the barrel of a 40 cal.  so my house was an attmpted robbery.;

Meat can say what he likes about it but this guy had a weapon that he dropped on the spot when i jumped around the corner and got the drop on him.

i honestly believe that the only people who beat the drums about gun control have no experience with them and are afraid of them.   For the rest of us we keep our protection close at hand.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/29/2007 3:36:24 AM >

_____________________________

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 4:02:58 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i honestly believe that the only people who beat the drums about gun control have no experience with them and are afraid of them.   For the rest of us we keep our protection close at hand.



I worked in the probation service for years with inner city youths that were armed or in custody or prison for being armed. I used to hunt when I lived in the French countryside. They don't scare me any more than they would anyone else. Guns are not very protective, that to me is bollocks, they are offensive, body armour is protective. They are very destructive and do create fear in communities and make inadequate youths feel they have respect. I'd love to see stats if there were any of someone actually having enough time to respond to someone who was intent on using a gun against them. All this talk on people getting 'the drop' on someone, I suspect is very very occassional to be pointless or just talk. Certainly from the criminal files I read, if someone planned to use a gun (they were usually using them against other criminals) they used them and the person they used them against had no time to respond and they should have not been surprised by being attacked.

Most burglars in Britain don't go armed when breaking into houses, they don't need to because they know they won't be confronted by guns or police that are armed.  The one occasion I can recollect of a burglar going armed to commit a burglary, he shot the occupants where they slept so a gun wouldn't have done them any good and the burglar had the belief for some reason, he would find enough loot to set him up for life. The bloke actually fitted into the nutter variety.

The last thing needed is for guns to be legally available to people who feel inadequate. As I stated, most mass murders are done with legally acquired guns.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/29/2007 4:05:47 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 4:28:37 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"The last thing needed is for guns to be legally available to people who feel inadequate. As I stated, most mass murders are done with legally acquired guns."

What part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" isn't clear?



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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 6:39:22 AM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

Various types of deaths in the U. S. in 2004

Gun related, homicide : 11,250
Gun related, suicide : 16,603
Gun related, legal intervention : 4,750
Fall related : 18,536
Vehicle related : 43,947

According to those statistics, you are almost 4 times as likely to die in a car wreck than to be murdered by a firearm. You are more likely to fall to your death in the shower than to be shot and killed. The solution seems obvious... we must ban vehicles, ladders, and showers!

Just as some countries relate a cucumber in a bag to a gun crime, gun control advocates often flub the statistics by dumping legal shootings by police and suicides into the overall mix of handgun deaths in order to inflate the numbers to their seeming advantage.


I've said in another thread, count the bodies, they can't be slipped into the out tray unnoticed, the rest of the stats aren't reliable.

What has cars to do with shooting people. While a death is a death, accidents are a different to murders and cars are not designed to kill.


What does it have to do with it? Since these non weapons are killing 4 times the amount of people that weapons are, it seems like anyone that was really concerned with the safety of people would be targeting the REAL killer,` vehicles. Look at the stats yourself. And on what grounds do you so pompously declare that the other stats are unreliable? How many people do you know that have been shot? Come on, feel free to tell us. Then tell us how many people you know that have been in an automobile accident. THEN lets look at the stats, ok?

Yes, weapons are designed to inflict harm on people. Sometimes it is necessary to inflict harm on people.  But by looking at the stats we can see that people are using more caution with firearms than they are with automobiles.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 7:18:15 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		At their basic level, guns are 'designed' to propel a small piece of metal at a high rate of speed in the direction selected by the operator.

Cars are designed to propel a large piece of metal at a high rate of speed, in the direction selected by the operator.

Superstitious beliefs which attempt to sensationalize the above basic observations are probably going to lead to magical and ineffectual solutions...like having politicans pass more laws.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 7:38:41 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		It is nice to know that whilst I am adequate to pay tax, work hard, employ others responsibly, vote and stand in elections, obey the laws of the land et al, the reason I should not be permitted a gun is that I am inadequate - since my inadequacy is clearly the only reason I might want one.

Given my inadequacy, I feel it no longer fitting that I work, pay tax, obey the law or take part in democratic life. Instead, I shall acknowledge and embrace my inadequacy by abandoning these activities and applying for social benefit payments and social housing and ignoring the law, topping up this income with crime.

I shall then be a perfect fit for the profile of a criminal, thereby acquiring adequacy in that particular lifestyle. Being now adequate and finding a gun a useful tool of my trade, I shall obtain one forthwith.

E

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 10:25:45 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

Uh-oh, NOW you're angry... well, then you are a prime candidate to go buy a gun without a waiting period.


That was a joke... a reference to a Simpsons episode about gun control. i'm actually in a pretty good mood

quote:


There are soultions, but most gun people only care about 'their gun', and not about the crime they presently cause and what can be done to limit it.  This mentality is not one that goes hand in hand with responsible weapon ownership.. in my opinion.


Why is it irresponsible to avail yourself of tools to protect yourself and your family if a violent situation should arise? i think it entirely unreasonable to say that "gun people" don't care about gun-related crime. Where we differ is that we see the downsides of the "solutions" that people opposed to firearms ownership consider to be infallible and without cost.

...dave

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 10:30:09 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Great post!!! lololol A really great post!

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 11:03:10 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife


What does it have to do with it? Since these non weapons are killing 4 times the amount of people that weapons are, it seems like anyone that was really concerned with the safety of people would be targeting the REAL killer,` vehicles. Look at the stats yourself. And on what grounds do you so pompously declare that the other stats are unreliable? How many people do you know that have been shot? Come on, feel free to tell us. Then tell us how many people you know that have been in an automobile accident. THEN lets look at the stats, ok?

Yes, weapons are designed to inflict harm on people. Sometimes it is necessary to inflict harm on people.  But by looking at the stats we can see that people are using more caution with firearms than they are with automobiles.


As a none car owner, I'm not against banning cars for personal use in certain conditions but not because people die in accidents but because of the environmental damage they do and particularly the damage they do to young people's respiatory health . They certainly don't have any place in a modern forward looking city where efficient public transport is available and car manufacturers should be made to pay towards the roads their products run on.

While you might use a car like a gun, I doubt that most people do but if you insist they are as dangerous as guns, let's get rid of them, they are for the most part, particularly to urban dwellers which are the majority,an unnecessary luxury.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 4/29/2007 11:06:05 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Great post!!! lololol A really great post!


No. He's just as hairbrained as before as well as anyone else that comes out with the nonsense of comparing cars to guns. Most firearm crimes don't involve firing the damn thing but creating fear by pointing the damn thing.

But if your intelligence can't differentiate the difference, I can only guess you are one of those people that think guns put spunk in your balls.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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