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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/1/2007 6:11:57 PM   
Crush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As Britain proved, without guns at large in society the police wouldn't need guns so I would make the gun manufacturers supply the police and other enforcement services with free weapons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

What about the military... do you have a number worked out for the benefits that a modern, self-sustaining domestic small-arms manufacturer provides the nation during times of war? What about ammunition manufacturers? Do they get a free pass? After all, it's rare that the gun itself kills someone- more often it's the bullet.

Seems really complercated to me. How 'bout we just make individuals responsible for their own actions instead?



Hell no, individuals couldn't cover the costs anyway. If some individual shot up a liquer store for a few dollars, it is hardly likely they will have enough money to cover the costs of the damage they did. In fact I would charge the gun manufacturers for the cost of keeping an armed robber in prison.

If tobacco manufacturers can be sued for the damage their products cause so can gun manufacturers. Why make a difference?


The difference is that the tobacco companies were trying to hide what their product does.  Gun manufacturers proclaim what their product does...propels that little bit of metal in a very specific direction reliably when used properly....



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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/1/2007 7:30:20 PM   
Nastgargoyle


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Correction Meatcleaver, Cho's weapons were illegal becuase he lied answering the owner/purchaser form he filled out to get them and said he had no medical history of mental illness or treatment of mental illness. The problem was that since medical records are confidential information that can't be accessed without supenoa in the US, there was no database of medical information the federal's could have used to set off a warning flag.

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 1:04:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nastgargoyle

Correction Meatcleaver, Cho's weapons were illegal becuase he lied answering the owner/purchaser form he filled out to get them and said he had no medical history of mental illness or treatment of mental illness. The problem was that since medical records are confidential information that can't be accessed without supenoa in the US, there was no database of medical information the federal's could have used to set off a warning flag.


Then the system of that allows access to weapons bought in a store is seriously flawed and far too lax. The idea a would be criminal only has to lie to get access to weapons confirms this. However, there are pro gun people on CM have lamented that access to guns is still too tough for honest people while stating that every gun crime is by a criminal after the fact. Their stance is somewhat illogical.

_____________________________

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 2:13:25 AM   
Nastgargoyle


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I agree the system is flawed, unfortunately its the only system in place right now until someone can dream up a better one. This is one of those wonderful situations where its easy to sit back and pick it all to pieces noting that this is wrong, and that shouldn't work that way, but unfortunately for all the picking it apart that people can do, no one seems able to point out what can be done to make it better. Becuase when they start trying to scream more legislation, they've already slit their own throat.
The only way that Cho could have been prevented from buying a firearm in the US is by tossing any law regarding docter patient privilage out the window.
Tha means giving federal governement and any of its designated agencies not just access to medical records and treatment histories, but setting up a standard of prosecution for medical personal and facilities that fail to tattle on people.
Do I claim its a perfect system? No.
Is there room for improvement? Probably.
In the meantime what can be done about it? Nothing.
There simply isn't a feasible, one step, magic cure that can be kicked into effect that will make one iota's difference in the current state of affiars. Becuase firearms are a Right in the constitution. Not a law, a Right.
And any steps towards curtailing that right, means re-writing the constitution, re-designing the nation according to someone elses view of whats best for me.
I'm not a gun crazed advocate. I have a couple of guns about the house that I keep on hand to deal with coyotes, badgers, and the occassional skunk and feral dogs. I don't believe that most people have any need for a handgun since those were designed to be used on people, not animals, or hunting, or any of that. I believe that most people that actually have guns dont have any business with them.
So as a gun owner I'm all for finding ways to keep guns out of the hands of potentially dangerous people like Cho.
As an american, and a veteran, I'll fight like a wild animal anyone that tries to change my constitution and remove my rights however, saying that I shall live by their version of the soveriegn word.

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 2:18:15 AM   
Pulpsmack


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As usual, cram everybody on the short bus, drop some ice cubes in their soup, and remove everything from the classroom with corners because two students can't cope with the same challenges of the rest of the class, or the classes of the fathers, or the classes of the fathers' fathers.

So long as one person exists to make a tragedy, we must make the world safe at everybody's expense.

First it's ban X

Now it's violate somebody's privacy rights to obtain X because somebody might fall through the cracks.

And what do the brilliant commentators suggest when the system fails? ANOTHER SYSTEM.

So we have strict background checks that violate confidentiality (we'll forget about that for a min). And how do these background checks work? For every applicant, you need a complete criminal AND medical record (criminal is networked now so skip that). In order to implement a medical record system, you would need the NICS equivalent, which would cost BILLIONS of dollars. Moreover, a felony = a felony. But what about psychiatric observation? Are all pronouncements =? Felonies don't cure themselves, but do psychiatric conditions? You would need an ungodly amount of manpower and money to implement, update, and judge these cases, from state certified mental health departments and law enforcement alike. For what? A statistically insignificant amount of occurrences that deserve no attention whatsoever (in terms of frequency/likelihood) other than the fact that they generate a horrid fascination by the public?

One day, you just wake up and say, "Fuck you! I'm not taking off my shoes, my necklace, my underwear, submitting to a rectal search and doing without all liquids on board because a couple of Allah-chanting motherfuckers fell through the cracks!" (Note for the overly-sensitive PC hypocrites: If "Bible thumping" is an acceptable term then "Allah-chanting" is as well). One day, you just have to suck it up and realize you are an adult, and you need to live in the real world, where you don't have a federal "mommy" micromanaging your seat belt use, and your caloric intake. One day you grow up and take accountability for yourself, and expect the same from your fellow man, instead of scapegoating everything icky on your agenda that doesn't belong in this impossible city More called Utopia.

Yeah. It's so sad that one malcontent can devastate lives that quickly. Yeah it's sad that we have evolved methods of taking lives as we have "evolved" as a society. Yeah it's sad we have guns, knives, and bears (Oh my!). It's also sad we have mentally unstable people, and those who are just plain evil, who have plied a trade of violence with finger, fist, flipknife, or firearm. And that's reality. It won't change. You can cast lofty aspersions with an air of smug pretentiousness. You can gnash, wail, lament, whatever. Nevertheless, those who complain and cry about how "wrong" this permissiveness is never seem to have a solution. Of course there is no solution. There is no prevention... no cure for crime. Without crime there is no human nature.

All that said, I am pleasantly surprised at the small amount of detractors on this site, yet I am disappointed any exist here of all places. This is a group of people that subscribe to abuse, humiliation, and violence. This group uses tactics, implements, and apparati employed by some of the most devious and disgusting individuals of human history, which were created with NO other use in mind but to create suffering and misery of the worst kind for all of humankind.  Aside from the fact (we'll call it a theoretical fact for onsite liability reasons) that many of these people  violate the law performing sexual assault, battery, etc. while performing their lovemaking acts, many people inside/outside the lifestyle might recognize in the totality of circumstances that a core group exists for the sole purpose of creating healthy intimacy with others. YET there exists a fringe element of sick and/or evil people who have little respect for the concept of SSC behavior. And despite the fact that there is a despicable history with much this lifestyle is obsessed with... despite the FACT that there is a recognizable subset of people using this lifestyle for the worst reasons possible, EVERY single person on this board JUSTIFIABLY defends the FREE practice of this lifestyle.

The fucking hypocrisy, astounds me, sickens me, and offends me, when I see such adamant defense of what we all enjoy together on this group followed by these myopic and ignorant attacks on those things that some of us don't like.

Just once, I would love to see justice at work where the law does not apply equally. I would love to see those who live by the sword of government regulation bleed at the neck from the wounds meted out by the other edge. What audacious protests would hiss from those forked tongues when they can only buy one flogger per year, when extensive background checks would be required for the purchase of a singletail. Have you or a partner ever been convicted of a domestic violence charge, or a felony of ANY kind? Any implement or apparatus is off limits under a MANDATORY federal sentence of 15 years. Does anybody really NEED a TENS unit with that amount of voltage? Let's regulate those with a $200 tax stamp and a Form 9 (complete with 4-6 month waiting period for each one). Look at this... leather laces and brass grommets found in a drawer. Do you have a license to make implements? Oooooh one call from your disapproving neighbors to the Bureau of ATFS&M and you do 10 years federal mandatory  for constructive possession of materials to make an illegal beating implement.

Just be an adult. Learn to live with the fact that there are things in this world that you don't like/understand, things that might even do some evil in society despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of them do either good or none of the above. Face the facts that there will be sick and evil people in this world that are going to do evil despite the bold "thou shall nots" written on paper, and despite the vain efforts of  4 tin badges for every 12,000 swinging dicks out there trying to enforce the words. That's part of being socially responsible and enlightened enough to understand the difference. And if you just cannot or will not see the light, don't you dare protest when the Nazis come for you gypsies next, after you helped them ferret out all the Jews on that dark day that some senator's bored loser of a wife nearly loses her husband to a crazy Dom/me and starts a special interest group to stamp this "cancer" out once and for all.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 5/2/2007 2:43:33 AM >

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 3:18:46 AM   
Zensee


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Only four pages and already Godwins law has made an appearance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

quote:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.



Liberty and responsibility are sides of the same coin but in the absence of a universal, self administered and enlightened code individual responsibility, it is at times prudent for large groups of people, living in close proximity, to establish rules for living together. Almost every liberty one person demands will have an impact on the quality (in this case the continuation) of someone else's life. The loud disturb the tranquil, the slow inconvenience the weak - and vice versa. Until we shed our adolescence, the need for rules is likely to persist. Should we dispense with the center line and make all roadways first come first serve in both directions?

Wishing all the rules would go away is rather like wishing all the guns would go away.

A world where everyone possessed the enlightened awareness, honesty and responsibility necessary to own guns would also be a world where they were not needed. Since such an awakening is not imminent, requiring gun owners to display sober character and demonstrate exemplary practice, does not seem unreasonable.

There is a saying - Locks are there to keep honest men honest. Firearms control helps responsible owners stay responsible.


Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 5/2/2007 3:19:46 AM >


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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 4:06:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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LOL Pulpsmack, you bite so easily, you really are in infatuated with your guns. If people were so passionate about democracy, civilisation and justice as you are about your piece of iron the world would be a better place.

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 5:49:09 AM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
Just once, I would love to see justice at work where the law does not apply equally. I would love to see those who live by the sword of government regulation bleed at the neck from the wounds meted out by the other edge. What audacious protests would hiss from those forked tongues when they can only buy one flogger per year, when extensive background checks would be required for the purchase of a singletail. Have you or a partner ever been convicted of a domestic violence charge, or a felony of ANY kind? Any implement or apparatus is off limits under a MANDATORY federal sentence of 15 years. Does anybody really NEED a TENS unit with that amount of voltage? Let's regulate those with a $200 tax stamp and a Form 9 (complete with 4-6 month waiting period for each one). Look at this... leather laces and brass grommets found in a drawer. Do you have a license to make implements? Oooooh one call from your disapproving neighbors to the Bureau of ATFS&M and you do 10 years federal mandatory  for constructive possession of materials to make an illegal beating implement.


Not just that section, but the entire post was eloquent and brilliant.  I have been boggling over this paradox of in the community since joining the frey, as it were, and I feel you struck the nail on the head.  The only unfortunate thing is that I know you will not receive an educated and articulate response that appeals to the issues you have raised here.  They will denounce you, launch ad hominems, and coil up like the snakes that the loudest and most incendiary of them are being that they've been smited by the irrefutable hypocrisy of their argument.

Let's see if a single one of the screaming regulators will actually respond to the point that you've made there.  I wait in great suspense.

-Sicarius

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 6:37:13 AM   
petdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
One day, you just have to suck it up and realize you are an adult, and you need to live in the real world, where you don't have a federal "mommy" micromanaging your seat belt use, and your caloric intake. One day you grow up and take accountability for yourself, and expect the same from your fellow man, instead of scapegoating everything icky on your agenda that doesn't belong in this impossible city More called Utopia.



NOOOOOOOOOOO! Anything but that! *wails and gnashes teeth*

Excellent post. Damn shame to see some people still completely ignoring the point, but excellent nonetheless.


...dave

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 7:18:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sicarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
Just once, I would love to see justice at work where the law does not apply equally. I would love to see those who live by the sword of government regulation bleed at the neck from the wounds meted out by the other edge. What audacious protests would hiss from those forked tongues when they can only buy one flogger per year, when extensive background checks would be required for the purchase of a singletail. Have you or a partner ever been convicted of a domestic violence charge, or a felony of ANY kind? Any implement or apparatus is off limits under a MANDATORY federal sentence of 15 years. Does anybody really NEED a TENS unit with that amount of voltage? Let's regulate those with a $200 tax stamp and a Form 9 (complete with 4-6 month waiting period for each one). Look at this... leather laces and brass grommets found in a drawer. Do you have a license to make implements? Oooooh one call from your disapproving neighbors to the Bureau of ATFS&M and you do 10 years federal mandatory  for constructive possession of materials to make an illegal beating implement.


Not just that section, but the entire post was eloquent and brilliant.  I have been boggling over this paradox of in the community since joining the frey, as it were, and I feel you struck the nail on the head.  The only unfortunate thing is that I know you will not receive an educated and articulate response that appeals to the issues you have raised here.  They will denounce you, launch ad hominems, and coil up like the snakes that the loudest and most incendiary of them are being that they've been smited by the irrefutable hypocrisy of their argument.

Let's see if a single one of the screaming regulators will actually respond to the point that you've made there.  I wait in great suspense.

-Sicarius


Reading this, why do such Americans want prisons? Shouldn't those in prison under the bureaucratic administration of the government be released and allowed to live in the way their free will dictates to them and be subject to the same arbitary free will of other Americans. Why did such Americans allow the suppression of such civilised gatherings as lynch mobs, they were just citizens expressing their right to act freely and the freedom to survive or die by the arbitary nature of human whim.

_____________________________

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 8:50:39 AM   
Pulpsmack


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I wonder whether it is the person(s) misunderstanding the complete picture of the poste to which they respond, or  if they understand it too well and pursue the illogical extreme for the purpose of effect.

I believe the"sucking it it up and doing without the micromanaging federal "mommy" and  taking accountability for yourself/ expect the same from your fellow man, instead of scapegoating everything icky on your agenda" is a FAR cry from a lawless society where we expect everybody to live on their best behavior.

Are people that sad... that blind that they can no longer fathom the idea of responsible government? Why is it always one extreme or the other... micromanagment or lawlessness?

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 10:57:35 AM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Reading this, why do such Americans want prisons? Shouldn't those in prison under the bureaucratic administration of the government be released and allowed to live in the way their free will dictates to them and be subject to the same arbitary free will of other Americans. Why did such Americans allow the suppression of such civilised gatherings as lynch mobs, they were just citizens expressing their right to act freely and the freedom to survive or die by the arbitary nature of human whim.


All right, first thing out the gate I want to point out ... you just did exactly what I expected you to do.  I made a post referencing the one that Pulpsmack made and challenged all of you to respond to the points that he was making.  Instead of doing that, you attacked my post being that I didn't actually make the points.  I want to see you, meatcleaver, go back through the post that Pulpsmack made and make logical, educated responses to every one of the ideas that he brought to the table.  Can you do that, or do you concede his point?

Secondly, you need to understand that those of us who embrace a more "Libertarian" agenda favoring the uninfringed rights of the People do NOT believe in Anarchy.  We hate Anarchy as much as we hate police states.  I don't think a single person on this thread is advocating that anyone should be free to infringe the rights of other people.  Just as we do not want the government infringing our rights to do as we choose, we respect the rights of our fellows just as much.  I would fight to defend not only myself, but my fellow countryman's rights ... I have no doubt that individuals like Pulpsmack would do exactly the same thing.

Now, your argument is essentially: "why do you guys want prisons and want to infringe the rights of lynch mobs."  That's easily rebutted ... prisons should exist to contain violent offenders of other peoples' rights.  People who extort other human beings need to be in prison.  People who murder, rape, molest children ... they need to be in prison.  People who would form lynch mobs to string up minorities need to be in prison.  No one is advocating anything as reckless as what you're describing ... the only thing we are saying is that as responsible and mature adults, we trust ourselves to protect our individual interests moreso than a government.

The government should be kept as small as possible and should only exist to handle functions that on account of their scope, size and complexity cannot reasonably be managed by individuals.  Standards are important ... I'm not going to advocate for a second that there should not be state and federal programs managing or relating to the governing of roads, hospitals, police security, etc.

Does that clear up the point?

-Sicarius

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 11:27:05 AM   
Nastgargoyle


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As I pointed out in my last post, its easy to lean back in your chair Meat and pick the system apart as being faulty. Congratulations on your brilliant deduction that has led you to a conclusion that for most other people is obvious. Now to step two of my last post... what is your feasible solution. And please do make a special note of the word Feasible included in that.

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 11:32:44 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

...There is a saying - Locks are there to keep honest men honest. Firearms control helps responsible owners stay responsible.


Locks don't keep anyone honest... they are lumps of metal just like guns, and have no such magical powers to affect innate human traits

There is however a saying that 'locks only keep honest people out'...

Just as more laws and regulations only restrict the actions, not the morality, of those who would obey them.

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 12:19:41 PM   
Zensee


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Actually Alumbra, there are several versions of that saying and, not surprisingly, they all mean basically the same thing – a lock / law gives us pause to consider our possible actions. Firearms regulation isn’t about changing people’s morality it’s about defining and requiring responsible behaviour.

Sicarius – I did respond to salient points of Pulpsmack’s post. And I didn’t scream while doing it (but then I didn’t paint images of my opponents bleeding from neck wounds either). I could parse his post line-by-line but that gets tedious. I will say that every propagandist technique he accuses others of, is well represented in his writing, including hypocrisy.

Meatcleaver was clearly not advocating the release of dangerous criminals – he was pointing out the duplicity of Pulpsmacks position. Pulp is articulate and passionate but when you boil down his arguments they amount to his way or the highway – replacing the rule of law with the rule of Pulpsmack. He is not advocating real liberty, only his personal preference. That’s not consensus, it’s dictatorship.

So Pulpsmack, let’s say you scared me into agreeing with you, for fear of losing my single-tail to the Federal Sex Nazis, how do you propose a “responsible government” would prevent guns from going to whackos? Or would they? Is that something a “responsible government” does not do? Should gun access be universal, without qualification? Where should guns be allowed? Everywhere? In schools, bars, law courts...?

There are many practical impediments to unregulated firearms access. How about you directly address a few of them?


Z.



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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 12:28:26 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
Sicarius – I did respond to salient points of Pulpsmack’s post. And I didn’t scream while doing it (but then I didn’t paint images of my opponents bleeding from neck wounds either). I could parse his post line-by-line but that gets tedious. I will say that every propagandist technique he accuses others of, is well represented in his writing, including hypocrisy.


If you feel the need to criticize the technique of his argument and rhetoric, that is between the both of you.  I will say in his defense, however, that he was creatively playing with metaphor with respect to the bleeding neck wounds ... using the example of the sword of government regulation.  I don't believe he was actually advocating killing his opponents in this discussion.  I understand the point that you are making, but yours is an ideological view that contrasts with the one that Pulp and I seem to share.  I think that we could both argue the merit of our ideologies respectfully but we probably would not come to any conclusions.  The main argument that I want to see the anti-gun crowd attack is Pulp's juxtaposition of this community's appreciations for our privacy and rights to conduct activities that the vast majority of the public would perceive as dangerous and threatening.

While I realize you did make a response, I do not feel that you responded to that point specifically, and I believe that that is the crux of his argument.  I believe that in order to effectively retort what he is saying, it is this most resounding point that you should be confronting head-on.

-Sicarius

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 1:08:04 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Actually Alumbra, there are several versions of that saying and, not surprisingly, they all mean basically the same thing – a lock / law gives us pause to consider our possible actions....


It is Alumbrado.

And 'Giving pause' is not the whole meaning of the 'only keeping honest people out' concept.

An innately honest person by definition doesn't need to be deterred from theft.

A 'conveniently honest' person probably isn't going to go to the trouble of defeating a lock.

And a dishonest person who does go to the trouble is increasing their chances of detection, which is one of the more practical purposes behind a lock

In the first and last of these applications the lock doesn't actually 'give pause' and turn the dishonest person into an honest one, or save the honest person from being momentarily infected with the evil dishonestly germs.

And IMHO, the the legislative/policy fantasies of journalists, lobbyists, career politicians and bureaucrats are equally bereft of reliable prophylactic effects when it comes to keeping violent, suicidal, or demented people from hurting themselves or others.

But, I've been told I'm too cynical, so YMMV.



< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 5/2/2007 1:09:36 PM >

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 1:45:05 PM   
Nastgargoyle


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Cynnical is just the politically correct term for realist anymore it seems.
Since guns are already legislated out the yang, and really no further feasable legislation is going to make any difference at this point, perhaps something could be done more on the front of the quantities of ammunition involved for most people that go on guns spree's?
After all I personally would be a little concerned about the mental state of someone that started hoarding several hundred rounds of ammo without a justifiable reason.

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 1:48:28 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nastgargoyle
After all I personally would be a little concerned about the mental state of someone that started hoarding several hundred rounds of ammo without a justifiable reason.


Those mosquitos are mighty-big 'round these parts ... known to carry off pets and small children.
*Pets the mountain of 7.62*

-Sicarius

_____________________________

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; ... Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." -Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"

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RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America - 5/2/2007 3:09:13 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nastgargoyle
After all I personally would be a little concerned about the mental state of someone that started hoarding several hundred rounds of ammo without a justifiable reason.



And what pray tell would that be?

Why is it that everybody's excesses/eccentricities in their lives are their own business until it comes to how many guns/how much ammo is piled? Nevertheless, the justification with the way our society treats arms is ample enough reason. If you don't "need" it there is supply nd demand, and ammunition has literally soared in price over the past two years. Buying massive amounts while reasonable is a justifiable enough when a few months down the road it becomes 125% the original cost, then 150%, then 200%. Everybody advocates safe use and training if you are going to have the firearms. Well, when the rounds cost too much, the training slackens/stops. So more often than not, bulk buys are in the publics interest when it keeps guys who carry practicing at the range

Then factor in actually needing ammunition: like a natural/human disaster that destroys/arrests the government function of an urban area. This is no longer an idealogical or speculative argument. It's happened... recently. what's available then and there is price-gouging fodder, and what is out of town may not be shipped due to circumstances or it may come too late.

quote:

So Pulpsmack, let’s say you scared me into agreeing with you, for fear of losing my single-tail to the Federal Sex Nazis, how do you propose a “responsible government” would prevent guns from going to whackos? Or would they? Is that something a “responsible government” does not do? Should gun access be universal, without qualification? Where should guns be allowed? Everywhere? In schools, bars, law courts...?


We have the NICS checks in place. That is responsible government. Will it prevent guns from going to whackos? not a determined one. Nor would any legislation imaginable. That then is responsible government: imposing reasonable restriction that does not unduly impose on the freedoms of law abiding citizens (when doing so would yield little if anything in return). Sorry to be callous, but I am very much OK with a handful of VTs occuring over the next 20 years with the laws in place now than diverting billions of dollars and losing constitutional rights for... a handful of VTs sucessfully performed around the new restrictions.

Gun access should be universal to all able citizens. Able = mentally stable and those who have not lost their constitutional rights through their actions.As far as carrying is concerned, I ADVOCATE schools, and have no problem with law courts. Bars are something that I don't have a problem with simply because they are private property and the owner reserves the right to restrict them from his establishment, which any owner would do anyway. Restaurant-bars where one enjoys a meal? I don't see the problem sitting down to a hamburger with your family and having the means to take out a threat. The only problem I have is intoxication and firearms possession. I have no problem with a person losing their firearms rights through a felonious conviction of public intox while carrying (whether brandishing or not), but that's my stance. with the exception of schools and courts, we have these provisions in my state (including the ability to carry in restaurant bars) and we have yet to have an OK Corral scenario.

(in reply to Nastgargoyle)
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