RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/28/2007 11:17:52 PM)

Well, we really need to tighten up the rules on sending our Troops anywhere.
Yes I can see Afganistan of course but not Iraq.
And if we know Bin Laden is in Pakistan then we should go in and get him.
But 54 years in Korea? Bosnia and Kosovo still? No.
They need to come out! And how much longer in Germany?
We simply can't have our Troops in more than 100 foreign countries.
It is tremendously expensive! People don't yet realize the scope of our debt!



mcbride -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/28/2007 11:20:26 PM)

Oh, i won't speculate, popeye.

I'll just help you with the facts.



simpleslave2007 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/28/2007 11:27:47 PM)

World standing & power is not so important as how you treat others, & being nice.

All the power in the world is useless if you treat others like dirt.



selfbnd411 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/28/2007 11:31:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Slow down, sparky.  Under Bush the American forces were ONLY there to insure that supplies made it to the starving.  It was CLINTON that ordered the snatch and grab. 
True or False?

We did not have problems in Somalia UNTIL we tried the snatch and grab.
True of False?

The parents of those killed in the Black Hawk Down incident refused to shake hands with Bill Clinton.
True or False?


You needa read some more history:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ambush/etc/cron.html



losttreasure -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 12:08:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Slow down, sparky.  Under Bush the American forces were ONLY there to insure that supplies made it to the starving.  It was CLINTON that ordered the snatch and grab. 
True or False?

We did not have problems in Somalia UNTIL we tried the snatch and grab.
True of False?

The parents of those killed in the Black Hawk Down incident refused to shake hands with Bill Clinton.
True or False?


You needa read some more history:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ambush/etc/cron.html


This is FirmKY on treasure's account.

selfbnd411,

Did you even read your own timeline?

lockedaways chronology and comments are exactly correct, and supported by your own cite.

What point are you trying to make?

FirmKY



meatcleaver -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 12:19:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Does this mean we can get all our Troops home, stop all "foreign aid", get out of NATO, NAFTA, GATT The "World Bank", The "U.N.",???


When it comes to globalisation and free trade, the US was at the forefront and pushing for it, criticizing countries like France that were not convinced. Now it is perceived to cost the US (though I doubt it does over all), the US complains about it.

The US (under Bush) has pulled out of many international treaties prefering to go its own way (I wonder why no one rushed in when Bush wanted an international solution in Iraq).

The US keeps talking about civilisation and the rule of law, then refuses to join the ICC because it doesn't want the prospect of its citizens being tried by thr ICC (which would only happen if it didn't try its citizens that were accused of war crimes itself).

The US then sets itself above international institutions and declares itself when it is OK or not for a country to invade another. ie. It is OK for the US to do it and no one else.

Britain has an equally shit reputation as well thanks to Blair licking Bush's arse.



popeye1250 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 12:32:27 AM)

Meat, the American People were never in favor of these things, corrupt politicians and big corporations are the ones who wanted this crap!
If they let us vote on it we'd be out of all of those things tommorrow morning!
Ask the average person on the street in the U.S. if they think the "U.N." or NAFTA  are good things!



meatcleaver -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 12:49:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, the American People were never in favor of these things, corrupt politicians and big corporations are the ones who wanted this crap!


Well I have to a agree to a certain degree here but not all the way. We all claim to live in (representative) democracies but the powers that be seem happy to take thirty pieces of silver while the majority population settles for trinkets and the idiot box in the corner, prefering to believe that than think for themselves. (I'm talking about all western countries not just the US)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

If they let us vote on it we'd be out of all of those things tommorrow morning!
Ask the average person on the street in the U.S. if they think the "U.N." or NAFTA  are good things!


Even the US can't isolate itself in the modern world.

There is a programme on the BBC world Service made by an American reporter this coming week called 'Why The World Hates America'(I think). He investigates if there are any real foundations to people's accussations against America or if most wrongs are just perceived wrongs. My guess it will be a mixture of both. Losing a good name is far easier than winning back a good name. Certainly for my parents generation, nothing bad was ever said about the US but then, they lived through the war.



popeye1250 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 1:04:37 AM)

Meat, currently under Bush the U.S. is not doing what people in foreign countries "want" us to do.
With the exception of Iraq I think that's a good thing.
If they do something in Czeckoslovakia that people in other countries don't like people don't say anything.
If we in the U.S. do the same foreigners don't seem to have a problem criticising us.
Two different countries, two different standards.
Look at Rwanda, some people tried to blame the U.S. for that when the blame layed on Belgium and the people of Rwanda!
I mean WTF?



meatcleaver -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 2:08:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, currently under Bush the U.S. is not doing what people in foreign countries "want" us to do.
With the exception of Iraq I think that's a good thing.
If they do something in Czeckoslovakia that people in other countries don't like people don't say anything.
If we in the U.S. do the same foreigners don't seem to have a problem criticising us.
Two different countries, two different standards.
Look at Rwanda, some people tried to blame the U.S. for that when the blame layed on Belgium and the people of Rwanda!
I mean WTF?


I don't think anyone blamed the US for Rwanda, first I''ve heard of it anyway. France has had the finger pointed at them over Rwanda.

As for Czech, most Czechs don't want US missiles sited there so if the Czech government decides to agree to it, the Czechs that don't want them, will still not want them and who can blame Russia for not wanting US missiles on their border, the US was prepared to start WWIII over Soviet missiles based on Cuba.

The US government has always looked after US interests at the expense of other countries and has never done what other countries want it to do against its interest and why not, that is what it is there for. The difference now is that Bush has totally rejected constructive engagement and told the world to basically fuck off and aggressively pushed what he perceives to be US interests at all costs. When your friends are turning against you, that should tell you that the problem is you, not everyone else.



caitlyn -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 5:41:08 AM)

I think most Americans couldn't care less if we have a leadership role or not, care even less what our standing is, and care least of all what any of our supposed "friends" think about us.
 
We are self interrested, and will do whatever we want to do. You are equally self interrested, and will only like us if we do exactly what you want us to do.
 
You see ... friends try to help you when you are wrong ... try to give you a hand when you need them most. Unless you are suggesting that we storm the White House and remove our government by force (oh wait, you also want us to give up our guns), exactly what would you like us to do, besides waiting in out?
 
Instead, our "friends" are the non-stop criticism machine.
 
I think most Americans would just as soon have our "friends" ditch us, and go be friends with China instead ... but, the Chinese are pretty nice people generally, and I don't think we would wish that on our worst enemy.



NorthernGent -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:32:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I think most Americans couldn't care less if we have a leadership role or not, care even less what our standing is, and care least of all what any of our supposed "friends" think about us.
 
We are self interrested, and will do whatever we want to do. You are equally self interrested, and will only like us if we do exactly what you want us to do.
 
You see ... friends try to help you when you are wrong ... try to give you a hand when you need them most. Unless you are suggesting that we storm the White House and remove our government by force (oh wait, you also want us to give up our guns), exactly what would you like us to do, besides waiting in out?
 
Instead, our "friends" are the non-stop criticism machine.
 
I think most Americans would just as soon have our "friends" ditch us, and go be friends with China instead ... but, the Chinese are pretty nice people generally, and I don't think we would wish that on our worst enemy.


No use crying about it. If you want to be liked, be likeable.



lockedaway -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:55:24 AM)

Great post Caitlyn, you are absolutely right.  In the geo-political world, it isn't a question of being likeable.  It is all a question of what suits the interests of each nation and a friend today is an enemy tomorrow.  It is the old "what have you done for me lately" attitude writ large.

I couldn't care less what France thinks or Germany or anyone else for that matter.  Alliances are bought and sold and "friendships" shift with the prevailing tide.  The idea that all of Europe would be an ally to the United States because of what we did in WWII was a silly and romantic notion that we awakened from very slowly.

By the same token.  I have a little story for you.  I was in Krupina in the Slovak republic last year.  Krupina is towards the center of the country and has not seen any of the prosperity that the eastern side of the country has seen (which has been substantial).  We went to visit a friend's family and we brought food, candy, and a ton of clothes.  These people lived in your basic, run down, communist block style high rise.  I took some candy and went downstairs and there were a bunch of kids running around and some old grandmothers.  I started passing out the candy and the chocolat and trying to communicate with the kids as best I could.  I looked over at the grandmothers and I gave them chocolat and Jolly Ranchers too and went back to where I was sitting.  One of the grandmothers nudged another one and pointed to me and said one word that I could understand...."American".  It was a great trip! 



caitlyn -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 9:13:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
No use crying about it. If you want to be liked, be likeable.


I think you miss my point ... respectfully. My assertion is that most people over here really don't care if you like us or not.
 
I have loved my visits to Europe ... some of the most fun times I have ever had. England is a beautiful country ... I would love to live there some day. I could spend ten years visiting all the historic places in Europe. That said, I think it is foolish to have you as a friend, because there is nothing in it for either party.
 
By the way, please note that I didn't say we were your friend either. We are a lot less vocal, because we are the stronger party, by far. If you were the stronger party, our roles would be reversed. You are nice and peaceful right now, because you are relatively, militarily weak. If you were militarily strong, you would be doing things like attacking Iraq and projecting power all over the world, and we would be bitching about it and using it to win elections.



meatcleaver -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 9:36:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

If you were militarily strong, you would be doing things like attacking Iraq and projecting power all over the world, and we would be bitching about it and using it to win elections.


I doubt it, there is a mixed picture, much of Europe has had enough war. With its economy Germany could have a huge military if it desired. It just doesn't have the desire and its not because US troops are stationed there. Most of Europe is military weak because it prefers to spend its money on health, education and a more egalitarian society.

Unfortunately there are sections of British and French societies that still hanker after glory days, I guess they weren't blitzed enough in WWII to learn their lesson.



NorthernGent -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 10:12:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
No use crying about it. If you want to be liked, be likeable.


I think you miss my point ... respectfully. My assertion is that most people over here really don't care if you like us or not.
 
I have loved my visits to Europe ... some of the most fun times I have ever had. England is a beautiful country ... I would love to live there some day. I could spend ten years visiting all the historic places in Europe. That said, I think it is foolish to have you as a friend, because there is nothing in it for either party.
 
By the way, please note that I didn't say we were your friend either. We are a lot less vocal, because we are the stronger party, by far. If you were the stronger party, our roles would be reversed. You are nice and peaceful right now, because you are relatively, militarily weak. If you were militarily strong, you would be doing things like attacking Iraq and projecting power all over the world, and we would be bitching about it and using it to win elections.



To me, your posts suggest you personally want the US to be seen in a good light, however much you protest. See your "friends" post above.

I would be surprised if the majority of Americans are remotely interested in what foreigners think about the US or the US government, and this isn't a peculiarly American attitude - the same applies pretty much everywhere I've been.

All this friends business, you and I look at this in a different light. You seem to think that because our goverments have an arrangement of convenience, then somehow we're friends. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "we" or "friends". To me, their relationship is an arrangement of convenience, and has no bearing on me.

As far as I'm aware, people simply want to see the US government move away from a foreign policy that is defined by overthrowing sovereign government's and imposing US values and/or installing tyrants. It is dangerous and the biggest threat to world stability. There's no unfriendliness towards American people, at least not on my part. For some reason, you take this as an attack on the US people and you personally. Maybe it's youth, maybe it's nationalism, but it's rarely taken for what it is - criticism of your government's foreign policy, and it's based around facts.

Would Europe be projecting power all over the world? Well, it's an understatement to say European governments have form for that sort of carry on. So, maybe and, in truth, European governments still have their fingers in a few pies here and there. Regardless, this has nothing to do with me. I'm not a nationalist, and take no pride in living a country where the government thinks it has the right to kill people in another country. Nationality isn't an issue for me - if a person can excuse or support the foreign policies of a government that has overthrown several sovereign governments and installed military dictatorships that have killed thousands of people, then we aren't going to get along - whether that person is American or non-American. In actual fact, the US has been at the forefront of developments in human rights at times - I like that side of the US.



FirmhandKY -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 11:27:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Your posts come across to me as if you personally want the US to be seen in a good light, however much you protest. See your "friends" post above.


Strange.  I got just the opposite meaning from her posts:

...  care least of all what any of our supposed "friends" think about us.

...  will only like us if we do exactly what you want us to do.

Instead, our "friends" are the non-stop criticism machine.

I think most Americans would just as soon have our "friends" ditch us ...

... most people over here really don't care if you like us or not.

...  I think it is foolish to have you as a friend, because there is nothing in it for either party.

...  I didn't say we were your friend either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You seem to think that because our goverments have an arrangement of convenience, then somehow we're friends. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "we" or "friends". To me, their relationship is an arrangement of convenience, and has no bearing on me.


Strange.  Seems to me, that is just the opposite from what she is actually saying:

I think most Americans couldn't care less if we have a leadership role or not, care even less what our standing is, and care least of all what any of our supposed "friends" think about us.

We are self interrested, and will do whatever we want to do. You are equally self interrested, and will only like us if we do exactly what you want us to do.

I think most Americans would just as soon have our "friends" ditch us ...

My assertion is that most people over here really don't care if you like us or not.

... I think it is foolish to have you as a friend, because there is nothing in it for either party.

By the way, please note that I didn't say we were your friend either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

As far as I'm aware, people simply want to see the US government to move away from foreign policy that is defined by overthrowing sovereign government's and imposing US values and/or installing tyrants. There's no unfriendliness towards American people, at least not on my part. For some reason, you take this as an attack on the US people and you personally. Maybe it's youth, maybe it's nationalism, but it's rarely taken for what it is - criticism of your government's foreign policy, and it's based around facts.


Maybe it's youth
Condescending.

maybe it's nationalism
Ethnocentric

but it's rarely taken for what it is - criticism of your government's foreign policy
If your definition of "foreign policy" is this:

The purpose of foreign policy is to protect the nation's interests while respecting the interests and sovereignty of foreign nations. It's isn't all about your interests. It's about world interests.

... then you will always hate US foreign policy, because it advances causes that conflict with your basic belief system (anti-capitalist, anti-Western). It isn't designed to "respect the interests" of the "world", unless in doing so, it advances American interests as well.

and it's based around facts.

You criticisms are based on selective facts, selective assumptions, and a philosophy that is inherently anti-Western, not "just the facts" as you are wont to claim.

There's no unfriendliness towards American people, at least not on my part. For some reason, you take this as an attack on the US people and you personally.

Ahh, no, see ... here is one of your basic misunderstandings and miscalculations that you show.(An ethnocentric failing again).

To a greater extent than in just about any other nation, the US government is - by definition even - the American people.  "WE the people ... " and all that. 

We get to criticise it terribly because it's "all in the family".  When you criticise it - especially from a point of view that is Anti-US in its core - of course we tend to take it more personally than you do, coming from a country with royalty, and a history of a government that only became a representative of the people relatively late in its history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Would Europe be projecting power all over the world? Well, it's an understatement to say European governments have form for that sort of carry on. So, maybe and, in truth, European governments still have their fingers in a few pies here and there. Regardless, this has nothing to do with me. I'm not a nationalist, and take no pride in living a country where the government thinks it has the right to kill people in another country. Nationality isn't an issue for me - if a person can excuse or support the foreign policies of a government that has overthrown several sovereign governments and installed military dictatorships that have killed thousands of people, then we aren't going to get along - whether they're American or non-American. In actual fact, the US has been at the forefront of developments in human rights at times - I like that side of the US.


Oh, finally I get an admission that maybe - perhaps - the US isn't totally and completely evil. Would you mind giving any specifics to this claim?  Or is it just a throw-away line in an attempt to deflect criticisms of your position of being anti-American?

FirmKY



caitlyn -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 11:57:02 AM)

Careful FirmhandKY ... you are going to be accused of reading a post for what it actually says. [;)]



popeye1250 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 12:07:48 PM)

And, we didn't send Troops to N. Ireland when they were having all "the troubles" there and no-one complained.
Now, some want us to send Troops to Darfur?
Why the U.S. and not say,...Romania, or China, they have a million Troops and a LOT of our money. Of course noone says anything about African countries!
It's like a lot of these foreign countries look at the U.S. like we're a "fixer" or something. We're not!
And getting out of the "U.N." is not "isolationist."
It's a prudent money saving move.
Who in here would want to join a club where you get to pay 30% of all the "dues?" Not me!
I want to do business with a lot of foreign countries but certainly not all.
We need to be getting *out* of a lot of things, not be getting involved in more things!
We really don't need to be involved in the "U.N.", Nato, Gatt, Nafta and a few other things anymore.
That's the problem with *Our Government*, when it comes time to get out of something the beaurocrats never want to get out of it and they invent new "missions" that are completely foreign to the origional Charter's. ("Mission Creep")
That's why I am totally against my govt. getting involved in anything "new." And I let my congressman and senators know it too.
The bottom line is that I don't want to PAY for all this stuff.



FirmhandKY -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 1:29:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And, we didn't send Troops to N. Ireland when they were having all "the troubles" there and no-one complained.
Now, some want us to send Troops to Darfur?

Why the U.S. and not say,...Romania, or China, they have a million Troops and a LOT of our money. Of course noone says anything about African countries!

It's like a lot of these foreign countries look at the U.S. like we're a "fixer" or something. We're not!

And getting out of the "U.N." is not "isolationist."

It's a prudent money saving move.

Who in here would want to join a club where you get to pay 30% of all the "dues?" Not me!

I want to do business with a lot of foreign countries but certainly not all.

We need to be getting *out* of a lot of things, not be getting involved in more things!

We really don't need to be involved in the "U.N.", Nato, Gatt, Nafta and a few other things anymore.

That's the problem with *Our Government*, when it comes time to get out of something the beaurocrats never want to get out of it and they invent new "missions" that are completely foreign to the origional Charter's. ("Mission Creep")

That's why I am totally against my govt. getting involved in anything "new." And I let my congressman and senators know it too.

The bottom line is that I don't want to PAY for all this stuff.


popeye, I consider you one of the real, authentic American voices on the forums here, unimpressed with high falutin rhetoric and BS reasoning from many others. You just shoot straight to the bullseye, and don't worry about all the BS along the way.

I like that.  [:D]

My gut feeling agrees with most everything you post, so you'll rarely get any kind of argument from me, but at times my intellectual has to disagree.  Which shows a level of cognitive dissonance in me about all of these subjects.

I wanna just tell 'em all to go to hell, and we'll tend to our own garden.

But I've also seen what a mess most other nations have made of the world, when we "allow" them to play in the world's sandbox, so I have a tendency to want to see the continuation of the US international engagement.

But ... it would certainly give me a feeling of satisfaction to watch them take center-stage, and be able to harp and bitch from the sidelines as well.  I would make a great moralizing critic, I think.  [:D]

FirmKY



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