RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:38:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

"America has lost it's standing in the world" Yes it has, America has become a Bully on one side of it and a whiner on the other. We have lost the war in Iraq and we have burned through like a forest fire any compassion or merit that we might have gotten in sympathy for 9/11


We lost our standing in the world with Vietnam.  After Clinton and Bush Sr. we started to gain it back.

Then 9/11 happened and the world would have rallied behind us, but this was squandered by AnencephalyBoy as they enacted their dreams of global overlordship.

So we have lost our standing again.

Sinergy



cloudboy -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:45:53 PM)


Your equivocation and standardless view of America makes me wonder if somehow you are related to Tony Snow.

It would help if you spoke concretely instead wrapping your post is language like:

>America seems to have lost a standing, built in other people's minds and out of the mouths of American politicians looking for votes. We just "have" to be better ... because the alternative would be to admit that we were lucky. I have no such illusions. Most epic events in history are built on a foundation of luck. <

What the fuck?

1. Are you for or against Torture? Where do you think America should stand on this issue.

2. Are you for or against the Preemption Doctrine? What example does this set for the rest of the world.

3. What role do you think GITMO plays in US efforts to promote human rights in other countries?

4. Do you think the US should continue or abandon its CIA practice of rendition?

5. Do you think the US erred in pulling out of the ABM treaty?

There's a concrete reality out there, why not focus on that instead of acting like all perceptions are relative?




PenetratingGaze -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:46:42 PM)

Some very good points D - however, the over 50% of US hating the President ~ more like liberals hate him, libetarians are disgusted with BOTH parties, and the conservatives are just really, deeply disappointed in him. Or at least the paleo- and theo-cons, neo-cons love him.



Sinergy -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:48:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PenetratingGaze

Some very good points D - however, the over 50% of US hating the President ~ more like liberals hate him, libetarians are disgusted with BOTH parties, and the conservatives are just really, deeply disappointed in him. Or at least the paleo- and theo-cons, neo-cons love him.


I dont personally hate him or anybody.  There is a difference between hating somebody and ridiculing their behavior.  I find his behavior deserving of a lengthy jail term.

Sinergy



lockedaway -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:49:09 PM)

(wild laughter)  We lost our standing and our military capabilities with Clinton.  We sit here with yoke on our face because of No. Korea, because Clinton could have stopped Bin Laden in '96 and '98 but declined on both occasions.  When Rumsfeld said "you fight the war with the army you have not the army you wish you have" what do you think that meant?  W. Bush inherited the weakest army since the Carter administration.  Before the Carter administration, the armed forces hadn't been that weak since before WWII. 

We have lost our standing in the world because we have enormously improved the world's standing with NAFTA and now the world is getting a bit uppity.  It is like the enabled finally spitting in the face of the enabler once the enabled gets on his feet.  Those are some of the reasons why we have lost standing in the world.



kittinSol -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:51:17 PM)

cloudboy, not wishing to be forward here, but may we discuss your so very pertinent questions?




PenetratingGaze -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 6:56:51 PM)

Sinergy, I don't agree with the jail term part; however, he definately needs a slap to the back side of his head. For example: the Patriot Act, I really believe that he was not trying to undermine the constitution, it went to far and if someone like Hillary was able to use it... *shudders* ...  I think that he really meant well by that and other things he's done.
  The road to hell and all that.



Sinergy -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 7:04:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

(wild laughter)  We lost our standing and our military capabilities with Clinton.  We sit here with yoke on our face because of No. Korea, because Clinton could have stopped Bin Laden in '96 and '98 but declined on both occasions.  When Rumsfeld said "you fight the war with the army you have not the army you wish you have" what do you think that meant?  W. Bush inherited the weakest army since the Carter administration.  Before the Carter administration, the armed forces hadn't been that weak since before WWII. 

We have lost our standing in the world because we have enormously improved the world's standing with NAFTA and now the world is getting a bit uppity.  It is like the enabled finally spitting in the face of the enabler once the enabled gets on his feet.  Those are some of the reasons why we have lost standing in the world.


Please cite your sources for this lucid analysis.

Because I believe you have been listening to the wrong people.  As Rumsfeld pointed out when Bush Sr. went to Iraq in 1990 with the military inherited from Reagan, you go to war with the military you inherit from your predecessor.

Weird, though, he didnt say that when AnencephalyBoy defeated Iraq in a week and a half with the military he inherited from Clinton.  Most of the words emanating from the Republican Talking Heads are that George W. Bush's efforts to conquer Iraq were hamstrung (how they got this from a 2 week conquering of hostile armies) by the Evil That Was Clinton.

As Goebbels said, say something often enough, it becomes what people believe.

Now, taking Rumsfeld's words for the next President, I hope you think long and hard about the military that person is going to inherit from AnencephalyBoy.

Sinergy



caitlyn -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 7:11:27 PM)

1. I'm against it ... not because it angers other countries ... but because torture is wrong.
 
2. Against ... war should be a last resort. The message is sends, is that we made a mistake. Nations are human things, and humans make mistakes. When you make a mistake, the last thing you need is your friends rubbing your nose in it. With friends like these ... you know the rest.
 
3. I don't think it is our place to promote anything in any other country.
 
4. I'm not qualified to answer that question.
 
5. Yes.



Dtesmoac -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:01:40 PM)

Like your post caitlyn
 
I have no idea why anyone would think we had/have a better way of running a country. We are certainly no better than any other country, and none are better than us. Put your self in the position of people from most of the areas affected directly by WWII. The USA looked like something to try and attain. A young country, affluent, espousing the importance of freedom. Particularly with another Dictaor (Joe Stalin) to the east imagine the impression of the US on surivors of WWII. Britain was perhaps the least devistated of countries and yet it was on its knees for years after the War. The reality of the US did not matter it was the image, reinforced by Films. For my parents the USA sounded like paradise on earth......all of it even West Texas . !!!

America has power. Power is measured relative to other nations. Anyone that thinks America gained its power by outworking other nations, is living in a dream world. America was not devastated by the second World War ... and that is the only thing we did right ... we had oceans. Yep agree with you. Plus all the worlds money was spent in the US during WWI & WWII. Then after WWII everythimg that was left was up for sale going cheap and the only one with money was...USA.  
 
America seems to have lost a standing, built in other people's minds and out of the mouths of American politicians looking for votes. We just "have" to be better ... because the alternative would be to admit that we were lucky. I have no such illusions. Most epic events in history are built on a foundation of luck. But how many Americans acknowledge the luck aspect? For those in the US that have made a reasonably comfortable living there is a real belief that anyone can do it and it is just a matter of work. But that is not true. There are entrenched biases about qualifications, language, appearance etc that I find staggering. To be poor, sick or down on your luck, it is not a simple work your way out, but everyone is told that is the case... and its not.  
 
My only question to our overly critical European "friends", is to tell us who has done a wonderful job, wielding all this vast power? Who is the shining example, we should look up to? There isn't one, but for a brief period with the Marshal plan etc and forgiveness of Japan, the USA came close. But isn't it right that we should try. What is wrong with critiscm when things are wrong. And again my usual point that learning from each nations and each persons experiences is what is important. Lok at GM they are finally waking up to fuel efficiency.....just a bit late!! (Rank No 2 etc)   

... or maybe spend less time dreaming about us having a better way to run a country, and more time realizing just what a brutal task master all this power can be. The message one delivers is sometimes not as important as the way it is delivered. In businesses with new management, where arrogance is seen then people wait for you to fall. When you arrive with little showmanship and deliver on a few basics then people tend to join the team even if they do not fully believe in the strategy. Its about credability, and that is the key reason for the loss of americas standing. It has lost credibility for fairness, truth, upholding the law, protecting the weak from the strong, justice, etc. There should be a no contest between which is the lesser evil, Chairman of China, Ayatolla of Iran or President of the USA. In 2007 too many people have to even think about the answer.
[/quote]



kittinSol -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:05:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

There should be a no contest between which is the lesser evil, Chairman of China, Ayatolla of Iran or President of the USA. In 2007 too many people have to even think about the answer.


Ahem, you forgot Tony. (*Whispers: 'Blair'.)

ROFL maniacally.



popeye1250 -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:25:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Your equivocation and standardless view of America makes me wonder if somehow you are related to Tony Snow.

It would help if you spoke concretely instead wrapping your post is language like:

>America seems to have lost a standing, built in other people's minds and out of the mouths of American politicians looking for votes. We just "have" to be better ... because the alternative would be to admit that we were lucky. I have no such illusions. Most epic events in history are built on a foundation of luck. <

What the fuck?

1. Are you for or against Torture? Where do you think America should stand on this issue.

2. Are you for or against the Preemption Doctrine? What example does this set for the rest of the world.

3. What role do you think GITMO plays in US efforts to promote human rights in other countries?

4. Do you think the US should continue or abandon its CIA practice of rendition?

5. Do you think the US erred in pulling out of the ABM treaty?

There's a concrete reality out there, why not focus on that instead of acting like all perceptions are relative?




1. FOR, but only for al qeada or other terrorist groups.
1 a Execution FOR after we get done extracting information.

2. Yes. I hope the example this sets for the rest of the world is that the U.S. will absolutely go to hell and back to get at terrorists throats!

3. Not applicable. I agree with Caitlyn, we shouldn't be trying to promote anything in foreign countries. (It's "GTMO" by the way.)

4. Continue and expand wherever possible.
In Saudi Arabia they have those big curvey swords that they use for beheadings.

5. Don't know.
But, we have enough Nuclear Submarines to destroy the entire middle east many times over so what difference does it make, really?



Dtesmoac -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:26:38 PM)

He's just the leader of a small Island nation whose wife is making a fortune out of his job. LOL

QQuite amazing that both Bush and Blair were both elected multiple times before people realised what numptys they were / are ....



kittinSol -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:31:34 PM)

I am at a loss for feminist words.

There I was making self-deprecating noises about the (crap) leader of our (tiny) nation and you reminded me what a successful wife he has.

Now I feel even smaller than before. Thank you for that great lesson in feminist humility.

From a woman to a man (I think you are a man, aren't you?) it couldn't be greater than that. Thank you.




TexasMaam -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:33:14 PM)

general reply:

So, did anyone else see the Iranian women getting rounded up by the hair police, getting arrested for letting any hair show beneath their veils?  (OK I know Iranian women don't call them veils but I don't feel like googling the correct term..)  Poor women, scared to death, manhandled into police wagons, yanked off of the streets, all the while unable to repress their bloodcurdling screams of terror?  Mothers, wives, daughters, sisters - they all belonged to family somewhere.

Hundreds upon hundreds of them.  I wonder whether they were charged and released or whether the Iranian police sold them into slavery, or worse?

I noticed this liberal media didn't air it all weekend - probably in keeping with Nancy Pelosi's mandate to 'not insult' any Muslims, because 'if we can convince them we will leave them alone they will leave us alone'.....

But I digress.  I always do when NP opens her fool mouth.

So, am I the only woman in the entire western hemisphere who saw that news clip before the liberal media moguls snuffed it?

Dear God: Please do not let any thing happen to George Bush.  It's not that I'm very happy with him these days, it's just that Cheney's about to keel over from a massive coronary and that would leave Nancy P as President by osmosis. 

Yeppers, I'm praying for GW these days.

TexasMaam



caitlyn -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:44:34 PM)

You might be amazed to discover how much easier it would be to change public opinion here in the United States, if we didn't have all our lovely "friends" castigating everything we do. You tend to give a handy trench where people can dig in.
 
In the Second World war, we could have decided not to help out you Brits until you admitted that you bailed on your agreement to provide the full weight of the RAF to defend France. We could have gotten very upset over Market Garden. We could have been pissed that Monty and Horrocks wouldn't help us out in Bastogne, when they were much closer and had talked Ike into giving them most of the U.S. Third Army's supplies.
 
But, we stayed off that. It wasn't useful or helpful. You may not understand this, but at times, criticism fits in to the category of aid and comfort to the enemy (in this case, the current administration).



Dtesmoac -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:45:49 PM)

Yep, should be a no brainer contest between the US President and Iranian Hair squads......but its not, families killed to cover up the rape of girls in Iraq, orange suits shakled to wheel barrows, video of gungho US pilots....etc

Thats the problem. It should be very clear that Chinese and Iranian standards of acceptable behaviour are far behind those of the US and the "West"...... but it is now a murky water rather than clear blue water between the standards of US / West and the rest....



kittinSol -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:50:53 PM)

caitlyn, I thank you unofficially in the name of Her Majesty the Queen of England for the great deeds the United States of America have achieved during WWII, not least at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Also, we are altogether grateful for your choice of forum (collarme.com, no less) for reminding us all of your greatness.




Dtesmoac -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:56:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You might be amazed to discover how much easier it would be to change public opinion here in the United States, if we didn't have all our lovely "friends" castigating everything we do. You tend to give a handy trench where people can dig in.  LOL you havn't its just a few loud mouths. A lot of what I see in USA today and other papers and some news channels contributes to the posts I place. Theres a 50:50 spilt in US views. Its just that the UK and Europe are part of the US lieberal 50% !!!  

In the Second World war, we could have decided not to help out you Brits until you admitted that you bailed on your agreement to provide the full weight of the RAF to defend France. (Britain and especially England has always been a dodgy allie. Naoleaonic and WWI let the others do the dieing we'll just provide the money) We could have gotten very upset over Market Garden. (You did, but at least the last bridge was reserved for Brits and Poles to die at) We could have been pissed that Monty and Horrocks wouldn't help us out in Bastogne, (not sure that is quite the history I read, but I'm no expert so I'll have to go back and check) when they were much closer and had talked Ike into giving them most of the U.S. Third Army's supplies.
 
But, we stayed off that. It wasn't useful or helpful. You may not understand this, but at times, criticism fits in to the category of aid and comfort to the enemy (in this case, the current administration).  LOL. I think the constructive part of criticism is sometimes a little to well disguised. Think about the poor Yanks that have to work with me each day. They think I'm a commi and in the UK they think I'm a right wing extermist... I can't win, but have fun trying. There really are a lot of Americans that have not travelled and are totally contented with the little bit of the USA hey grew up in. And the same occurs in the UK. Travel and seeing beyond the horizon actually stimulates that unsettling feeling of.... I may be wrong...there may be a better place over the hill.  



caitlyn -> RE: "America has lost it's standing in the world." (4/29/2007 8:57:27 PM)

Please provide the link where I ever said the United States was great, or ever asked for thanks for anything.



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