Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers

Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (Full Version)

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PenetratingGaze -> Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 4:38:32 PM)
Just an idea that I think might solve a plethora of problems- How about, given that the Constitution's call for all able bodied men 18-45 to serve in their States Militias and the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, that the Fed should provide military training to all, AND assault & antitank weapons to every man (and woman) who chooses to serve. This wepons would have their ballistic profiles on record and if used in the commission of a feloney would then be traceable. Our National Guard would then be much larger and I and my brothers/sisters in arms wouldn't have to cycle thru Afganistan and Iraq so often. If people wished they could opt out of this by serving with the border patrol, ICE, DEA, CIA, FBI, etc. Some, if meeting the criteria, could prove their love for their fellow man & country by working for AmeriCorps or Peace Corps. Most Conscientious Objectors and the like though would do better working in the Army Corps of Engineers, Military Police, and MASH units (helping with natural disasters etc). All those who don't wish to serve their country and countrymen then lose the franchise. No Servise=No Vote.

lockedaway -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 4:41:28 PM)
That isn't a half bad idea...work some of the kinks out of it, but not a bad idea.

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 4:57:18 PM)
Thanks,lockedaway. Not my original idea-R.A. Heinlein propsed something akin to it first. I'm waiting to hear what Popeye and Meatcleaver say about it. Anyone, wish to help us polish this idea up some?

lockedaway -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 5:00:53 PM)
Oh c'mon, I can almost quote meatcleaver word for word. The predictability is amazing.

meatcleaver -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 5:39:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lockedaway Oh c'mon, I can almost quote meatcleaver word for word. The predictability is amazing. I wouldn't let 18 years olds have weapons unless they were in Iraq, let them see what weapons do and then let them keep their weapons. Oh I forget. Post traumatic stress disorder creates all sorts of psychological disorders that could prompt mass murders or suicides. Actually if weapons are to be kept, better people are trained. The Swiss do something similar to this but many Swiss men leave their country between the age of 18 and 40 or use some other scam so they don't run the risk of being killed by morons in the militia who think playing with guns is a fine idea.

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 5:52:31 PM)
Actually, I'm quite aware of the Swiss system. It actually was the one of the inspirations for Heinleins "Starship Troopers." It along with geography, and the banks are what has kept Switzerland free from invasion and able to remain neutral. The Swiss make damn good soldiers, those that run away have had their minds co-opted by spineless, mealy-mouthed appeasers and politically correct liberals.

dcnovice -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 5:53:10 PM)
<fast reply> Intriguing idea, PG, and I think there's a lot to be said for having everyone do some form of national service. Hope you're not too horrified to hear this from a liberal. [:)]

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 6:01:50 PM)
DC, why would I be mortified from hearing this from a lib? One has to work REALLY hard to be wrong 100% of the time. The Germans have compulsary service also, unfortunately it has become really watered down by all the reds and greens over there. I think though that it is a great idea, if we just try and insure that we avoid others mistakes in implementing such an idea.

dcnovice -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 6:05:22 PM)
quote: One has to work REALLY hard to be wrong 100% of the time. An amazing number of my neighbors seem to manage it almost effortlessly.

dcnovice -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 6:08:47 PM)
Joking aside, it might be useful to look at what the Brits did during World War II. I think both men and women had to do some form of service. Princess Elizabeth, now the queen, trained to be a driver and mechanic.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 6:34:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lockedaway Oh c'mon, I can almost quote meatcleaver word for word. The predictability is amazing. Bingo! [sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]

Sinergy -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 6:56:19 PM)
I agree with this idea, PenetratingGaze, in fact, I posted about it on another thread. I like Heinlein's idea that service did not necessarily equate to military service. A pacifist would have something they could do to serve their country and earn the right to be considered a citizen. If we did this, the cretins who did not serve would be prevented from voting in a cretin who did everything he could to avoid serving / refusing to serve, giving him control of the most powerful military the world has ever seen. I imagine if AnencephalyBoy had actually served in Vietnam, he would not have been so quick to invade Iraq. Sinergy

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:01:22 PM)
Sinergy, Have you read the John Ringo novel "Watch On the Rhine"? It points some of the dangers of letting too many alternatives to government service being allowed. Allow it can go over the top at times-but what the hey it's MilSF, that is to be expected.

Sinergy -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:07:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PenetratingGaze Sinergy, Have you read the John Ringo novel "Watch On the Rhine"? It points some of the dangers of letting too many alternatives to government service being allowed. Allow it can go over the top at times-but what the hey it's MilSF, that is to be expected. A long time ago. Lost interest in reading military novels when I was in high school. I did study Utopian Thought in college, PenetratingGaze. What generally happens in that genre is the author posits all the positive (or negative) aspects of the utopia/dystopia without really examining the contradictions or negative aspects too deeply. Sinergy

popeye1250 -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:14:17 PM)
Well I'm already retired military but I think it's a good idea. The Border Patrol could use all the help they can get! They are thankfull for The Minutemen!

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:15:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy What generally happens in that genre is the author posits all the positive (or negative) aspects of the utopia/dystopia without really examining the contradictions or negative aspects too deeply. Sinergy True, that is why one has to try to think of as many ramifications as possible to an idea, and seek to ameliorate them. That is what discussion and debate are good for

Sinergy -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:23:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PenetratingGaze quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy What generally happens in that genre is the author posits all the positive (or negative) aspects of the utopia/dystopia without really examining the contradictions or negative aspects too deeply. Sinergy True, that is why one has to try to think of as many ramifications as possible to an idea, and seek to ameliorate them. That is what discussion and debate are good for Agreed, PenetratingGaze. There was a draft which LBJ used to take a military into an idiotic war. Nixon ended the draft and the war in order to be reelected. The military started gaining people over the next 30 years who were interested in joining up, and the military (as a good way of getting out of a nowhere future) got to the point where they had too many recruits. This is because the military went mechanized and high tech. So they started to turn away people. The military was designed to do the job that Bush Jr. And Bush Sr. used them for in Desert Storm and the invasion. The military is not doing what it was designed to do in Iraq. The problem that AnencephalyBoy has is that it is no longer possible to get recruits to stand around and man guardpoints without a draft, so he has to use highly skilled and specifically trained people (like Black Horse division) to do that, taking them away from their (for example) training mission at the National Training Center. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:25:11 PM)
On a related note. Jan 20, 2009. I am making up my party invitations as we speak. Sinergy

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:30:30 PM)
1st Cav? Are you kidding me? Sorry, we in the 39th Bde don't think too highly of them after having seen them in action in Iraq. Neither did others, the Marines would specifically ask for "those boys from Arkansas" and very pointly refuse help from the 1st Cav

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/29/2007 7:35:27 PM)
Popeye, thanks for your service, and you are So right about the Border Patrol and the Minutemen - hmm, Minutemen - States Militias, why is that ringing a bell?? Must be because they are patriots who serve! Imagine that.

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