RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers

RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (Full Version)

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kentaro1980 -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 7:10:57 AM)
So you would not feel punished if I turn the tables around and deduct one vote for every 5 years of adulthood, since it is my firm believe that the government should work for the future of the country and everyone agress the future is with the children? You would not feel punished if I award more votes for people that actually worked in favor of people who need 8-10 years of studying before they can start working? (doctors, lawyers, scientists). You would not feel punished if I award more votes for workers in manufacturing jobs (carpenters and mechanics) than for workers in administrative jobs? (accountants, marketing, cashiers in grocery stores) Really?

LadyEllen -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 7:27:04 AM)
If you can justify it Kentaro, make the argument. E

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 8:16:52 AM)
Lady Ellen, Thank you for reasonable discussion concerning this topic, you've made some very good points. Especially concerning quality of personnel who serve in a universal conscription force. That is why I, personally, would rather serve with someone who, like myself, realizes the risk and volunteered anyway. I'm just looking for a way to improve our system. That is why both of our ideas need polishing- which is the reason I started this thread. To answer your question Kentaro, no, everyone would not have to serve all the time for 27 years. Rather, it is Constitutionally mandatted, although not enforced, that every able bodied male should serve in their states militias, with regular drill periods for training. Our state militias/National Guards are not full time. Those that volunteer to go full time, say for 6 years, might be able to opt out of the National Guard requirement. Another way of ensuring that all serve their country, no matter what, country they are from, would be giving them a choice like 2 years active OR 6 years Guard/Reserve. My original idea would also help resolve the gun control issues we in America have to deal with, plus, we would have a larger body of trained people in time of war or natural disaster. Also, it might help with the illegal aliens problem we have. I am in full favor of having closed borders, but open doors, anyone who wishes to come here should be able to, unless they have committed what our country views as felonies, not having a tie to an organization that seeks to overthrow our government/culture/way of life (ie- alQaeda), or are carrying an incurable disease (AIDS or similar). This type of policy would require a vast number of people to make it work. Maybe a reserve component of Border Patrol/ICE. Like I stated earlier, many could serve in a reserve/guard component of Military police or medical or even engineering for rebuilding (like in N.O.). One other problem I do see with the last, is the possibility of people becoming more dependant on the government for cheap labor-which would also hurt private industry and lead to the dull and ugly government style building form one sees in socialist/communist states and welfare housing. These are ideas, I'm just looking for ways to make them work better.

Vendaval -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 8:36:22 AM)
How about some organizations already working as examples - AmeriCorps http://www.americorps.org/ California Conservation Corps http://www.ccc.ca.gov/ Peace Corps http://www.peacecorps.gov/

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 8:45:36 AM)
Thank you Vendaval, I had already mentioned the Peace Corps and AmeriCorp. As a further kind of alternative service, there could be something akin to FDRs CCC. Maybe the Civilian Conservation and Construction Battalions. They could be under the supervision of the Army Corps of Engineers, and be used as clean up in devasted areas. Replant Forests, Finish and maintain our Interstate/Fed Highway system, and maybe even work on constructing a Nationwide MagLev system, which would reduce the amount of Air Traffic and be a more efficient means of quick travel. Though again, something like that should probably be done by private industry.

kentaro1980 -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 9:02:29 AM)
LadyEllen, you haven't exactly explained how age is any factor in determining the number of votes either...if You were so kind as to explain that to me without resorting to "life experience" because that has nothing to do with age at all. A 35 year old man having served 8 years in the military and being sent to hotspots all over the world and climbing the corporate ladder afterwards to the point of being regional manager and married has most certainly more life experience than a 55 year old unmarried accountant who has been doing the same job more or less for the past 30 years. As for those working longer in favor of those having to study: The contribute more to society in those 8-10 years, feeding their family and paying taxes. Manufacturing jobs getting more votes than clerks etc: Their job is more dangerous and should be compensated for. Penetrating Gaze: Germany has a draft in place. People who are unwilling to serve in the military have to serve in civil service...working in hospitals or senior citizen homes or also more fun jobs like being the driver for our equivalent of "meals on wheels" or working in youth hostels. In fact, would the draft and subsequently, the civil service be cancelled, the social security network would be unable to provide these services at such low expenses. Personally i think a 12 month service in the armed forces builds character and is in intermediate step between school and the sheer unlimited freedom of college life. So yes...I support your suggestion, however with the rather high turnout of Highschool graduates each year I'd say a 1 year mandatory service would be enough.

LadyEllen -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 9:14:44 AM)
I am using age Kentaro because there is no other way of establishing how much life anyone has experienced, since as you say, we each experience different things. To get into evaluating different experiences would be to fall into the trap of subjective judgement, which we need to avoid. It is beyond any doubt that at 40, one has experienced more of life - and particularly political life which is what this is about, than one has at 30, however exciting the life until 30 has been. The point is that when one has seen governments and politicans come and go over a longer period, one has gained experience of the democratic system and in the value and practicality of policies and the genuineness or lack thereof of individual politicians, to a far greater extent than when one has had a limited experience. I dont understand your point about students I'm sorry. Students are spending time to learn skills of use to society, therefore they should suffer no disadvantage in the voting scheme compared to those who opt to go straight to work, during the period of study. Once qualified then they will gain an advantage over their working friends, although if their working friends have been studying too (say, a practical apprenticeship leading to a professional status), then there will be no discrepancy. I dont feel any need to compensate anyone for the job they do. Its not about assigning value to the work performed by anyone, (this is done via wages/salary), its about assigning value to their views according to their experience, awareness and contribution for the purposes of the democratic process. As for the contribution aspect, the only ones who would lose out would be those who choose not to contribute. E

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 9:25:16 AM)
Kentaro, I am well aware of Deutschlands civil service requirements-I think that it should be a little more difficult to get into the nonmilitary branches than the Bunde has made it; however, it is a good basic idea. I just wish American leadership was more strongly connected to, and empowered by, the presence of those who have sworn an oath to serve, protect and defend the Constitution (and people) and realize the ramifications of their decisions on said defenders. Perhaps, like Lady Ellen has suggested, an extra vote, for those that serve, would work.

kentaro1980 -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 10:18:32 AM)
I'm going to opt out on this and agree with what has been said before: If people aren't considered equal anymore, then a young person with a knack for politics should have a higher regard for his opinion than an old disgruntled "all governments lie and the president is an alien" person, regardless of their other achievements in life. With your model, it's not the case, as you value "life" experience over actual knowledge of the political system or government related activities. Your opinion, but i disagree with it ;-)

popeye1250 -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 10:40:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The problem though Kentaro, as I see it at least, is that our current systems totally fail to discern any difference between the 21 year old drop out and the 60 year old professor of political thought, when it comes to how well considered their opinions are. We assign the same value to the ill informed thoughts of the inexperienced 21 year old as we do to the experienced and educated 60 year old - which equal value is unfounded, in the same way that my views on aircraft mechanics are of lesser relevance to the views of a trained aircraft engineer. Intellectuals have backed some very hairbrained ideologies in the past, communism, fascism, game theory amongst them. Qualifications and having lived longer are not always superior in dealing with politics than a spotty youth with a nose for politics. LOL at "Spotty youth with a nose for politics." IMMEDIATELY a picture of Bill Clinton came to me! "Spotty."

juliaoceania -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 10:42:33 AM)
quote: I feel that tying the franchise to service would enable arguments like "Clinton was a draft dodger" or "Bush only served in the Air Guard" to be eliminated. No vote and no right to run for office. Good arguements can be made both for and against. Political assassins would just come up with a new attack, such as McCain is a loon from spending 5 years as a POW, or Kerry was not a hero (Swift Vote Veterans ring a bell?). quote: Setting aside the idea of franchise though, how do you feel about universal service? It is constitutional and then many people who say things like the Bush daughters aren't serving, would have to shut up. I believe it is extremely hard to live a life without being of service to someone. We pay taxes for the greater good, we volunteer our time (such as I did at my son's school), we raise kids, we take care of our elderly parents (done this too), we help friends move, we give a ride to a neighbor, we give money to charity... and who is to say that charitable donations are not giving of one's self? I went to work and earned that money, giving it is a way of exchanging energy that I did not have time to give in other ways. And I do give money to charity without even writing it off. The other part of your statement involves the Bush girls. It is not their fault their father is a fucking war criminal murderer, BUT it just shows how easy it is for HIM to sacrifice other people's children without risking his own. That is a fault he has. I am sure his daughters have done things for others in their lifetimes. It has nothing to do with "service" as to why he is attacked about his daughters not sacrificing the way other young people are, it is about how he nonchallantly wastes other young people's blood without even a thought to what he has done is wrong. quote: Futhermore, IF the franchise was tied to service, there probably would have to be a grandfather clause built in, so the vote wasn't taken away from those that have it already. I still think this is a lot better than a literacy test, or making sure people have a drivers lic or state ID-which are some of the ideas people have come up with to overcome illegal aliens falsly voting. No one has ever shown that illegals are voting in record numbers and swaying elections. I do not support any of what is contained in the above paragraph, there is no reason to present ID when voting, it is just a talking point for the Republican party to keep people from voting because they want to disenfranchise people. They know that the less people that vote, the more they win. And I have to wonder, is that what you are advocating, allowing a certain people (elites) to gain the vote, and leaving behind unwashed masses of people that do not want to sacrifice their blood for corporate America. Our government is so controlled by a few people that own the media and control a few companies, it is just revolting... what you advocate is forcing our children to enter into service in order to appease the power elites and fight their wars for profit, just so they can get to vote on a computer with no paper trail in elections that are stolen by companies such as diebold... if that came to pass, I would encourage my own son STRONGLY to opt out and forget his vote. His vote in this corpocracy does not count for much in the first place. I vote for the principle mostly myself.

caitlyn -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 11:14:15 AM)
General Response ... Who would define what is considered service? My career choice is in education. Would that be service? What about civil engineers? What about doctors? What about postal workers? You know, a lot of young people use military service to get money for education. That would probably go away. Does that really seem like a good plan? It seems to me that this is making a "system" to address a problem caused by faulty execution of policy. The United States has never lacked for manpower in a just war ... and usually lacks manpower for unjust ones.

domiguy -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 11:35:00 AM)
O.K., If I "choose" to join the military will I get more votes for having the intelligence to avoid certain altercations? Or does might vote still count evenly with others who choose not to excercise that right...Or are simply not intelligent enought to question orders? Or at any time can I opt out and go to Africa and help AIDS victims or build schools and still be entitled to vote?....In Africa I am possibly doing more goodwill and preventing the emergence of terrorism in about twenty years shouldn't I be rewarded with a greater vote?...Also I'm looking up caitlyn's skirt.

LadyEllen -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 12:38:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kentaro1980 I'm going to opt out on this and agree with what has been said before: If people aren't considered equal anymore, then a young person with a knack for politics should have a higher regard for his opinion than an old disgruntled "all governments lie and the president is an alien" person, regardless of their other achievements in life. With your model, it's not the case, as you value "life" experience over actual knowledge of the political system or government related activities. Your opinion, but i disagree with it ;-) Nee Kentaro, Du verstehst mich nicht, glaube ich. Erlebnis der Politik ist genau was ich hier meine; und ich siehe solche Erlebnis mit Alter verbunden, als die einzelne Methode das Erlebnis mit Objektivitaet zu messen. Mit 20 Jahren kann man viel Erlebnis haben, aber ob man Politik zu diesem Alter studiert hat oder nicht, hat man Politik nicht so lang erlebt, als jemand mit 30 Jahren der mindestens zwei Verwaltungen als Erwachsene gesehen hat. Wenn die Altere die Verwaltungen ihrer Leben als Luegner sehen, ist das wichtige Erlebnis, und die Altere sollen davon einen bessere Wahl haben, weil sie Luegner besser erkennen koennen, und wir Jungere davon retten koennen. E

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 12:56:35 PM)
Kentaro, I feel badly for the people that serve in the Bundeswehr. In '97(?) the German government decided that they should be ashamed of serving militarily (because of self loathing due to the excesses of the Reich?), and thus, they may not wear their uniforms in public. Like the US, Germany has too many Reds and Greens. Especially extreme far left ideologue Reds/Greens - here though they're, usually, just called Democrats (or Move-on). This is just my opinion of something I've seen concerning your, usually, wonderful nation. I believe there is a malaise in Western culture, feeding the week-willed mewling sheeples and turning them into self-hating, western culture despising traitors. We have Reid and Pelosi for example. Alexi

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 2:05:43 PM)
Julia, Bush's nephew has joined the service willingly. So Bush does know the cost his decisions have, to a degree. But you have yet to make an arguement against my strongest point- which I shall now state bluntly: Why should anyone be allowed power in this country when they have not shown themselves worthy, by being willing to shed neither their blood in defense of it, nor their sweat in the building and maintenence of it and its people. And as for these corporations that you hate so much-they are, along with smaller businesses what keeps you, I and others from starving to death. They make the medicines, grow the food, provide employment, and bring the technological advancements to the populace of the world. Capitalism works better than any other economic system humanity has tried. Yes it's flawed, it consists of flawed people just like any system. Duh! Oh, so I'm elitist? Thanks for noticing. I DO believe that those who serve should also lead. I'm a proud American who is glad to serve under a Commander in Chief like President Bush, as flawed as he is. Kerry or Gore would been a much worse leader. BTW, I'm shipping out tommorrow to reclassify/retrain for my new job with the National Guard-I guess that makes me a war criminal too, huh? Just, like my adoptive father who served in the Air Force as a commissioned officer in Vietnam, and my blood father who graduated from Annapolis. Sorry, if my vitriol spewed a little there. any ways - As the Arabs say, as-Salaamu alaykum. Peace be upon you. Alexi

domiguy -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 2:22:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PenetratingGaze But you have yet to make an arguement against my strongest point- which I shall now state bluntly: Why should anyone be allowed power in this country when they have not shown themselves worthy, by being willing to shed neither their blood in defense of it, nor their sweat in the building and maintenence of it and its people. .Alexi Here is where you get into trouble...And this is where it get a little difficult.....First off, I sincerely wish you well and I hope you can home as quickly and safely as possible. But back to the point of conducting a lively debate.....Unfortunately let's take the war in Iraq...Who would I exactly be defending by going to Iraq? Am I defending my Country?....Take your 'adoptive" father going to Vietnam...How was he exactly defending "our" Country? And when we say that I should sweat to build and maintain this Country and it peoples...Which people? And where exactly would I be doing this building and exactly to who's benefit? Who will reap the rewards of my blood,sweat and labor? I do enjoy Heinlien's work... But perhaps this society would be better served if it were a combination of Heinlien's vision and Dalton Trumbo's logic.

Nastgargoyle -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 2:37:11 PM)
I have to go against the principle of enforced governement service of any nature becuase it violates a cardinal belief I have about a person has the right to choose and chart and work for the direction they want their life to go. If a kid fresh out of high school wants to put himself through medical school while sacking groceries then I'd proudly tie the apron on his waist and punch in the mouth anyone that cried he needed to hump a rifle on a creep for a couple years first. Whats the difference between a volunteer service and a conscripted service, regardless of whether its purpose is armed conflict or picking up roadside trash? A Volunteer service takes pride in the job it does, a conscripted force does the job well enough to get the paycheck or to avoid punishment. If my security or even the condition of the gutters on my stretch of highway are at stake, then I prefer they be maintained by someone thats going to take pride in the job that he does, not just show up to fill a spot in the air. A volunteer service of militia that assisted in gaurding the borders of the United States that was formed of ex-military? Thats very difficult to see the financing for, becuase of the amount of training and re-training required. Note for the people that don't realize it, soldiers aren't trained to be police, their trained for combat engagement where their purpose is not to turn someone around and send them back home, but to secure an area forcefully and and then use force to maintain its security unless orders for that area are changed. Cops are trained not to shoot, soldiers are trained to obey orders. Unless I'm grossly mistaken, Star Ship troopers was written from a satorical standpoint warning of the dangers of a government formed by conscription in a conflict that led to an almost Stalinistic regime.

PenetratingGaze -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 2:51:50 PM)
Nast, actually the book was written because Heinlein thought that would be a good idea for a free society, as oppossed to communism. It was a model for Libertarianism NOT Stalinism-thats why the Federation was fighting a Hive Mind. Also, I meant that the Border Patrol could serve as an alternative form of service, rather being composed of military. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I myself am very glad we have an all volunteer force, that is why alternative forms of service should be allowed. The system would still allow people to make their own choices but would for those that earn it extra power in society. As pointed out in the book, voting = power = force, what better group to wield that force than those trained in forces proper and judicious use.

LadyEllen -> RE: Guns, the border, Iraq, and Starship Troopers (4/30/2007 2:56:35 PM)
I could accept the arguments against the proposition better perhaps, were I not surrounded by the riff raff detritus of British society who chose not to make use of the education provided and now choose not to work and instead live off the efforts of me and other workers, in homes provided by my taxes which are better than my own, drinking and smoking more than I can afford to from my taxes and enjoying every other privilege of society without any thought of obligation towards it. And these people's opinions count the same as mine? I think not. Although, to all appearances, they are a lot smarter than me it would seem. E

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