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RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/1/2007 6:03:26 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

It's an article from the New York Times that has positive things to say about the current efforts in parts of Iraq -
 

 
It did have some positive things to say about the current efforts in parts of Iraq.

In the same sense that washing the windows of a burning house is improving it's real estate value.

quote:



and no one has the slighest interest in it.



You do understand there is a difference between what a person thinks or is interested in and their willingness to submit a post to an internet message board.

Perhaps you dont. 

quote:



But the first mention of another car bomb, or rumor of apparent American perfidy or incompetence will garner pages and pages of "amens", "oh, yeahs", "imperialism",  "Bush is monkeyboy" and/or screams of "Blood for Oil!".



Must suck to be one of the last people in the United States that has any faith at all in the man who singlehandedly tripled the national debt accumulated by the 41 previous presidents COMBINED as well as turned a $260+ trade surplus from the Clinton administration into a $280+ billion dollar trade deficit.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/1/2007 6:42:53 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		No. Britain wanted to join the EU and then wanted the EU to change to its vision. If Britain didn't like the EU, why did it join? It joined a common market with a vision of closer ties, not a single country. 
 
NATO is increasingly redundant even though Britain refuses to accept that fact. France and Germany has recognized for a long time that European and American interests are diverging, it is better to be realistic about it now than wait for America to pull the plug on NATO. Security alliances are about facing mutual threats, not about having exactly the same interests.   
 

Continental Europeans have every right to be pissed off with Britain. Right? No they have the right to have an opinion, and to express that and if they wish to get an integrated Europe inclusive Britain to provide the very real and valid arguments to achieve it. Right to be pissed off is do as we tell you or else..... a style more asociated with another continet perhaps :)  lol  ...   !!!.
 
Britain was the late comer, not everyone else. Britain joined Europe, Europe didn't join Britain. Club rules apply, or not, equally or not?
If Britain argued its case in Europe I would have some sympathy with your view but it doesn't. agree
It was Britain that broke ranks over Iraq, it is events that have proved Britain wrong but still Britain thinks it is always right. Breaking ranks is an emotional response. As France and Germany and many other independent states within the EU have done and will continue to do it followed a seperate foreign policy.....there is not requirement for the EU to have a single voice other than on trade issues. Germany and France are exercisng their "right" not to have troops in the firing line in Afghanistan, breaking ranks etc, etc, etc,........


The EU does this effectively and it is the EU that has changed the face of Europe, not NATO. NATO provided the security for the EU to work. 

The big question is what if anything the UK gets from the above............... mmm  perhaps one for another different thread.
 
I totally disagree with a two speed Europe which is really about Britain having its cake and eating it too. After more than thirty years of membership it is about time Britain decided whether it was in or out. Europe needs to decide on Europes vision and a single super state is perhaps not the way to go. Soft power can be more influencing than hard power. A single Europe would be expected to operate as a major if not super power....at the moment it gets away with flip flopping. A confederation rather than federation should be considered.
 
If Britain wasn't getting anything out the EU it would have left long ago. The EU will survive whether Britain is a member or not. Never said other wise.
 
I would also recommend Brits living in Europe for a few years, they will find their democracy has a lot of catching up to do and that the French and Germans et al enjoy more democracy than they do.

[/quote]
[/quote]

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/1/2007 9:00:45 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver's posts here illustrate exactly why I think the United States should get out of the UN and especially NATO, for the good of all parties involved, both European and North American.
 
A European policy base, built on not siding with America, or not buying military gear from America, or anything that even has the word America in it ... is flawed at it's very core.
 
Apologies for the highjack ... you may now go back to hammering FirmhandKY.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 5/1/2007 9:47:29 PM >

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/1/2007 9:12:35 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Meatcleaver's posts here illustrate exactly why I think the United States should get out of the UN and especially NATO, for the good of all parties involved, both European and North American.



Well.... I like Meatcleaver, but I still want ''out'' of the UN and NATO  ; }

 




- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 5/1/2007 9:13:16 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/1/2007 9:19:01 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Caitlyn, I agree with you completely.


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/1/2007 10:45:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

You do understand there is a difference between what a person thinks or is interested in and their willingness to submit a post to an internet message board.

Perhaps you dont.


A good example of what I've told you before:
you are one of (if not the) pre-eminent practitioner of the snide, sarcastic and condescending (especially condescending) comment and post on this forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Must suck to be one of the last people in the United States that has any faith at all in the man who singlehandedly tripled the national debt accumulated by the 41 previous presidents COMBINED as well as turned a $260+ trade surplus from the Clinton administration into a $280+ billion dollar trade deficit.


My post earlier in this very thread:
The problem is that too many people - here and in the wider world - don't bother to actually listen to what someone else has to say, and their reasons

From the same post, about Bush:
Personally, I'm very unhappy and disillusioned with him, and have even stated so in several different posts.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 12:43:20 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

A European policy base, built on not siding with America, or not buying military gear from America, or anything that even has the word America in it ... is flawed at it's very core.
 


This has nothing to do with liking or disliking America, despite what you think, I go to the US quite often and enjoy it. This is about treading ones own path and making ones own decisions. The US wouldn't leave their security in the hands of another country by relying on buying their off the shelf hardware or relying on their politicians to decide whether or not someone elses security is worth their while. If I have a problem with someone it is not with Americans but with my fellow Europeans who are no more pro or anti-American than me but are happy to rely on America so they can enjoy the best of both worlds.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 1:52:25 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Wow!  Utopian Ranger!  Where did you find that pic?
That speaks volumes about the culture of complacency.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 2:42:48 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Wow!  Utopian Ranger!  Where did you find that pic?
That speaks volumes about the culture of complacency.


*Big Wink*  --- Look around....walk into the majority of American homes at around 7-8 :00 pm on any given night and that's what you're libel to see - The countless, mesmerized by subversive, lying-ass corporate programming, all the while consuming poison ''fat-foods'' in mass quantity.

Sometimes the truth sucks.


- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 5/2/2007 2:45:00 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 5:52:30 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
A European policy base, built on not siding with America, or not buying military gear from America, or anything that even has the word America in it ... is flawed at it's very core.


This has nothing to do with liking or disliking America, despite what you think, I go to the US quite often and enjoy it. This is about treading ones own path and making ones own decisions. The US wouldn't leave their security in the hands of another country by relying on buying their off the shelf hardware or relying on their politicians to decide whether or not someone elses security is worth their while. If I have a problem with someone it is not with Americans but with my fellow Europeans who are no more pro or anti-American than me but are happy to rely on America so they can enjoy the best of both worlds.


I didn't mean to imply that it was about Europe liking, or not liking the United States ... or vice-versa. That's not my point at all. 
 
But your statement highlighted above ... it's very illustrative. Elections won, based on opposition to the United States, isn't treading one's own path. Being upset with the UK, because they happen to agree with us once in a while and invest so much money in America, that they tend to have a vested interest, isn't making one's own decision.
 
To my way of thinking, the alliance Europe has with the United States, are keeping Europe from treading their own path or making their own decisions. The United States gets next to nothing out of the alliance. It's time to have a friendly split, before it becomes an alliance monolith that drags somebody into something they don't want to be involved in. (sound familier?)

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 7:40:07 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

To my way of thinking, the alliance Europe has with the United States, are keeping Europe from treading their own path or making their own decisions. The United States gets next to nothing out of the alliance. It's time to have a friendly split, before it becomes an alliance monolith that drags somebody into something they don't want to be involved in. (sound familier?)


I would say that Europe gets next to nothing out of its alliance to the US. It is based on a world that has passed into history and now is motivated by small vested interest groups and corporations on both sides, which appear to get something out of it. I would like to know the truth behind the reasons why European governments turn a blind eye to such things as CIA abductions of people on their territory and allowing the illegal impisonment and torture of aductees. No doubt finance and commerce has a lot to do with it but money isn't worth losing ones soul.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 9:15:20 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

You do understand there is a difference between what a person thinks or is interested in and their willingness to submit a post to an internet message board.

Perhaps you dont.


A good example of what I've told you before:

you are one of (if not the) pre-eminent practitioner of the snide, sarcastic and condescending (especially condescending) comment and post on this forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Must suck to be one of the last people in the United States that has any faith at all in the man who singlehandedly tripled the national debt accumulated by the 41 previous presidents COMBINED as well as turned a $260+ trade surplus from the Clinton administration into a $280+ billion dollar trade deficit.


My post earlier in this very thread:

The problem is that too many people - here and in the wider world - don't bother to actually listen to what someone else has to say, and their reasons

From the same post, about Bush:

Personally, I'm very unhappy and disillusioned with him, and have even stated so in several different posts.


FirmKY


You are the person who stated that because nobody bothered to reply to your post about great new things happening in Iraq, your conclusion was that nobody had read or your post.  I was simply pointing out that your conclusion does not logically follow from your empirical findings.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 9:22:08 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
A good example of what I've told you before:

you are one of (if not the) pre-eminent practitioner of the snide, sarcastic and condescending (especially condescending) comment and post on this forum.





"What you have told me before"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/narcissism

I cannot recall off the top of my head any qualified and competent researcher or scientist who cites their own statements to prove their latest conclusion.  Yet you frequently seem to want everybody on the board to take your comments as empirical proof simply because you make a statement.

Anyway...

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 9:44:01 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

You are the person who stated that because nobody bothered to reply to your post about great new things happening in Iraq, your conclusion was that nobody had read or your post.  I was simply pointing out that your conclusion does not logically follow from your empirical findings.


I'm glad you are are practicing your telepathy today.  I guess that goes along with your prescience.

What I said was:
I also find it telling that my thread Reid's "Lost War" got a total of zero comments, and is now on the third page.

It's an article from the New York Times that has positive things to say about the current efforts in parts of Iraq - and no one has the slighest interest in it.

But the first mention of another car bomb, or rumor of apparent American perfidy or incompetence will garner pages and pages of "amens", "oh, yeahs", "imperialism",  "Bush is monkeyboy" and/or screams of "Blood for Oil!".

I also said the reason for starting this thread, and the "Reid" thread was:
... but rather making a point about perception and some people's total blindness to anything except the negative.

You are a good case in point. 

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 10:13:02 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

A good example of what I've told you before:

you are one of (if not the) pre-eminent practitioner of the snide, sarcastic and condescending (especially condescending) comment and post on this forum.


"What you have told me before"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/narcissism

I cannot recall off the top of my head any qualified and competent researcher or scientist who cites their own statements to prove their latest conclusion.  Yet you frequently seem to want everybody on the board to take your comments as empirical proof simply because you make a statement.

Anyway...


From your link:

nar·cis·sism  [nahr-suh-siz-em] – noun
1.inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.

2.Psychoanalysis. erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.


Let me repeat myself.  Your entire post above was nothing more than another ad hominem attack, and a good example of what I've told you before:
you are one of (if not the) pre-eminent practitioners of the snide, sarcastic and condescending (especially condescending) comment and post on this forum.

And, I'll give you the same advice I did before:
I think the first step to changing my way of interacting with you is to take a good hard look at how you yourself treat others.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Afghanistan - Another American Failure? - 5/2/2007 11:21:29 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I would say that Europe gets next to nothing out of its alliance to the US. It is based on a world that has passed into history and now is motivated by small vested interest groups and corporations on both sides, which appear to get something out of it. I would like to know the truth behind the reasons why European governments turn a blind eye to such things as CIA abductions of people on their territory and allowing the illegal impisonment and torture of aductees. No doubt finance and commerce has a lot to do with it but money isn't worth losing ones soul.


After a year of debate, we finally agree on something.
 
I don't think Europe gets anything out of NATO, and I don't think the United States does either. I sometimes wonder is the only thing that keeps it together, is fear of offending other parties if we split up a long friendship.
 
BUT ... why can't we just keep the interest-based friendships (such that they are), and admit that with the fall of the Warsaw Pact, the alliance just isn't needed and serves no useful purpose.
 
America needs to withdraw all it's troops out of Europe, and do it right now. They no longer serve any purpose, other than pissing off Europeans ... which is something the United States should avoid. The only thing that NATO has a possibility of doing, is either dragging Europe into conflicts they don't want to be in ... or dragging America into conflicts they don't want to be in. Europe doesn't want to be involved in what they see as American imperialism. It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong ... if they don't want to be involved, they have the right to not be involved. I would guess that most Americans don't want to be involved in another war in Europe, if there ever is one. Right or wrong, we have the right to use out military when, and where we want to ... or not at all.
 
America has no right to meddle in European affairs, and Europe has no right to meddle in America's. NATO though, gives each other an excuse to do just that ... and is not helpful to anyone.
 
An alliance is based on common interest and common need. Where it is neither, there should be no alliance.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 56
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