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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 7:32:24 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkyATL


Mmmm... Is that how the system works?  I seem to remember some sort of declaration that mentioned rights were inherent in human beings and not something that came with legal residency.  Also, my recollection is the same document mentioned that those same rights could not be forfeited.  Given the Declaration of Independence doesn't hold the force of law... but I definitely think most people would concede that it embodies the spirit of the system.

Where those rights are codified in law is in the Constitution and its amendments.  There is similarly no limit to citizens or permanent residence mentioned in the Constitution.  Now even if we agree that convicted criminals can be disenfranchised of some of their rights, as a class those your refer to are not convicted criminals.  Nor can we judge them or punish them as if they were.  As to what they are or are not entitled to, it cannot be based on an alleged criminal act.  See that's how the system works... perhaps they are more familiar with it than you.

I'd agree that illegal immigration is indicative of some serious problems that need to be addressed, however I'm a little confused by why it generates so much anger in you. 



One has an inherient right to Life (although pro abortionists say an unborn child doesn't...go figure) Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

One does not have an inherient right to vote. In the United States of America, that right is provided for by the Constitution which states "All citzens born or naturalized" have the right to vote.

Illegal immigrarants are niether. If the want Constitutional Rights provided to born or naturalized American Citizens, then they need to go home and apply legally like tens of thousands do every year.

(in reply to kinkyATL)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 8:08:00 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		And apparently, although Microsoft has the right to outsource jobs to India, Mexicans can't Insource jobs into Arizona.

If CAPITAL gets to have Free Markets, so does Labor.

Artificial Legal Entities are INFERIOR to Natural Entities.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 8:08:15 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

The average pay for field workers is $9.06/hr, according to Migrant News.  It's hard, therefore, to make the argument that Americans won't do these jobs because the pay is too low.  $9.06/hr is well above the minimum wage, and let's compare it to the average pay at Wal-Mart:

Sales Associate: $8.23/hr
Cashier: $7.92/hr

Wal-Mart doesn't have any trouble finding Americans to work for $8/hr, so why aren't Americans flocking to the farms to bend over in the hot sun all day for $9/hr?  The answer is fairly obvious: It's not about pay.  Americans just don't want to do menial labor.

Unrestricted immigration is definitely bad, but we need to recognize that our "high" quality of life is built on legions of workers who will always struggle to make ends meet.

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=1213_0_5_0



If you are here legally.. welcome.  If you  aren't, you are part of the problem.

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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 8:13:16 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Good bit of detective work there.  The link you provided has an excellent rebuttal of the claims presented in the letter.  I would disagree with his statement that social welfare laws were nonexistant during the period, though.  As a point of fact, the Progressive movement coincided with the great wave of immigrants from Eastern Europe that occurred from 1890-1920:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_shirtwaist --  The Triangle Shirtwaist fire of 1911, which led to workplace safety laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Tenement_House_Act  -- The 1901 law that prohibited the construction of unsafe housing for immigrants and the poor

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA03/holmgren/ppie/images/amer.jpg  -- A 1920 advertisement for an "Americanization" school to teach immigrants, who many feared were not assimilating, how to be Americans.




And those "Eastern Europeans" obeyed the laws of that time to enter here... of which included my grandparents. They even learned to flush toilet paper instead of tossing it in the wastebasket.

_____________________________

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I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 8:15:32 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I'll be calling my Senators and Congressman's office for sure!
Lotus, who is your Congressman?


John McCain

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 9:22:33 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you want more of that perspective than I believe anyone can comfortably stomach in a single sitting, Zinn's "People's History of the United States" is replete with examples.




Excellent book... but the status-quo crowd won't like it much. 

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 9:25:33 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Tomorrow there is going to be another illegal immigrant march. I just finished listening to the organizer of said march lamenting that they are marching for rights. They can't vote or receive benefits.

WHEN are they going to get it through their heads.. it's because the moment you snuck into this country breaking the law!!!

When you do that.. you GET no rights, just as if you broke into my home through an unlocked back door and demanded a room and food as your "right" just because you made it in the back door.

THIS time...since they are all out in the open.. arrest them all and ship them back until they understand the system.

I'm TOTALLY fed up!


If it's the right of Capital to have Free Markets, why isn't it the right of Labor?




Very astute observation

_____________________________

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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 9:32:44 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you want more of that perspective than I believe anyone can comfortably stomach in a single sitting, Zinn's "People's History of the United States" is replete with examples.




I have been wanting to get that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 9:48:28 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Hit the college bookstores just after sell-back time. They'll be flush with stock.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 9:49:31 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

The problem I have with much of this is they come to a country. reasonably nice with a reasonably well designed and managed infrastructure, built on the sweat and labor and values of a formerly British / Continental European point of view. 



Actually much of the labor this country was built on was African, Irish, and Slavic.  One of my favorite things to do is point out to my students who claim to come from good Irish or Russian stock that they were not considered "white" for decades after their arrival in the United States.  There was a definite racial hierachy that ran from British (top), Northern European, Southern European, Irish, Eastern European, and African/Asian.  You might look into a book called How the Irish Became White, by Noel Ignatiev.



Perhaps I misspoke.  The legal system and organization of our culture is descended from Western Europe, even if they enlisted other people to do that actual labor.  British common law is the cornerstone of the laws which govern our country.

I do not think the cultural precepts that govern a society, say the corruption in Russia, Mexico, China, etc., are found on a particular chromosome. 

Just me, could be wrong, etc.



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(in reply to selfbnd411)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 9:59:21 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		ALL PAY DUE RESPECT TO THE MAGNA CARTA!

HUZZAH! HUZZAH!! HUZZAH!!!



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:13:10 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
And apparently, although Microsoft has the right to outsource jobs to India, Mexicans can't Insource jobs into Arizona.

If CAPITAL gets to have Free Markets, so does Labor.

Artificial Legal Entities are INFERIOR to Natural Entities.


I'm sure the Fire Fighter's Local's support you in having illegals in the ranks. I think you should start the ball rolling.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:13:38 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I'll be calling my Senators and Congressman's office for sure!
Lotus, who is your Congressman?


John McCain


Lotus, John McCain is one of your two Senators. The other is Jon Kyl.
You have one Congressman.
Look in the phone book under "Federal Government."
And call them!
The staffers like to hear from their constituents!
I get the staffer laughing everytime I call.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/30/2007 10:40:54 PM >

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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:26:40 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
And apparently, although Microsoft has the right to outsource jobs to India, Mexicans can't Insource jobs into Arizona.

If CAPITAL gets to have Free Markets, so does Labor.

Artificial Legal Entities are INFERIOR to Natural Entities.


I'm sure the Fire Fighter's Local's support you in having illegals in the ranks. I think you should start the ball rolling.


That's for The Brothers and Sisters to take up! If they wanna join the local, and the local wants 'em, who are we to disagree with people's rights to associate freely?

Oh and HAPPY MAY-DAY! If y'all don't get a parade today for your hard work, just do a really shitty job, and take it as easy as you can.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/30/2007 10:27:46 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:34:47 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Problem is you can't simply have free labor trversing boarders unrecorded, We don't have Capital doing that either.
It crosses borders and clears Customs. Now the law may be with Free Trade that there is no Tax on the import of goods, but that does not mean the goods can come across without being checked by Customs Officials. And when checked it has to meet certain lawfull codes of where it is going and how it is packaged.
So the Free Labor Argument fails.

Since Free refers to taxes and duties and there is none placed on immigrants who enter the country legally we have Free Labor.
What taxes they pay are based on income not enterance.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:38:33 PM   
selfbnd411


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Status: offline 		I'd agree with that--immigration policy is like any other policy.  It ought to be regulated for the good of the nation as a whole.  I challenge the notion that these immigrants differ vastly from any prior wave of immigrants, but not the notion that a nation ought to set its own immigration policies and priorities.  That's what nations do.

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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:41:20 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I don't think the "Free Labor" argument fails, based on your assertion that there are barriers to "Free Capital".

First: Internal Multinational transactions where the "goods" are bits and bytes, never clearing Customs?

Second:

In the case of Capital, the barriers are minimal, by express policy.
In the case of Labor, the barriers are maximal. ( that's a dumb sounding phrase -- say "Two or Three Orders Of Magnitude Greater" )

So the field is uneven, and biased "against the little guy".

I like to root for the "Little Guy".



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:44:44 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		A to the Rights argument from the Declaration of Independance the inalienable rights are not all enummerated, and to assume that every right granted in the Constitution is based on an inalienable right granted by their creator is a fatally flawed assumption.
Civil rights are granted by the civil autorities and can be removed when the social contract is violated by the citizen or alien.
Legal theory that applies would be contract law, where a contract sets for that the contract does not survive beyond a break.

Even the constitution provides that one's Liberty can be taken away after due process.
So if your argument that a right cannot be taken away held then The Constitution breaks the idea set forth in the Declaration of Independance. Ammendment 5 "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
So two of the supposedly inallienable rights can be removed with due process of law.

Game Set and Match

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:51:29 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Flawed again fargle those bytes of data are almost never the product itself. Information is not usually a product, when the bytes represent money then banking laws apply and the money and goods are tracked that way.

Edited section added: Those transactions are recorded on the books of the Multi National and that transaction should it have a tax consequence will come forth at the end of the quarter when filed.
Transfer the Doohicky from Subsidiary A (in the USA) to Subbsidiary B (in India) It goes off the books in the USA and on the books in India and any customs happens when the Hard Good (Capital) represented by the bytes actually crosses a boarder.
When it leaves a US port it clears US Customs and when it arrives in an Indian port it then clears Indian Customs.


Try a hard good or money the definition of Capital and your argument fails as those transfers of bytes representing financial transfers are regulated and recorded. When they represent information they do not meet the definition of Capital.




< Message edited by Archer -- 4/30/2007 11:00:57 PM >

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RE: Oh Goody!!! - 4/30/2007 10:59:10 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

I'd agree with that--immigration policy is like any other policy.  It ought to be regulated for the good of the nation as a whole.  I challenge the notion that these immigrants differ vastly from any prior wave of immigrants, but not the notion that a nation ought to set its own immigration policies and priorities.  That's what nations do.



selfbnd, they do differ vastly first in that they are not "immigrants" they are illegal aliens. Criminals.
They keep crowing about "immigrant rights" so they know that they're not "immigrants."
Legal immigrants have "most" of the rights of U.S. Citizens.
Secondly many of them sneak into the country to steal our benefits and commit crimes not to "work."
Thirdly a hundred years ago those different waves of immigrants mostly came legally through ports of entry like Ellis Island where many were repatriated back to their own countries because of illness. These illegal aliens are not using legal ports of entry.
And disease is a serious problem with those south of our border.
They have brought LEPROSY into the U.S. There have been a few outbreaks in the North East part of the country!
Fourthly, Mexico published a guide for it's citizens on how to sneak into the U.S.!
I don't know of anyone else or country that has done something like that except maybe al qeada.
I can't remember Italy or Ireland ever publishing an official government document instructing it's citizens on how to sneak into the U.S.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/30/2007 11:04:17 PM >

(in reply to selfbnd411)
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