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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 8:14:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Please provide your education, qualifications, and therapeutic records to support your psychiatric evaulation of me.
If it was simply an attempt to be insulting, you need more practice.
No it wasn't. I leave insults and name calling to the ignorant.

quote:

rm, I am not signing on for a voluntary amputation, please clarify this statement.
A vaccine, amputation and elective breast surgery represent three different processes. One is preemptive and is not required, another is "elective" and the other a drastic procedure perhaps done under exceptional emergency circumstances .Clearer?

quote:

Please provide your source material to prove I think asbestos manufacturing is a criminal act.
The logic of your arguments say they should.  
quote:

If a company makes a product that kills me, or releases gas that kills my family, or whatever, I think the company should be held responsible for their actions or negligence.
If you want to disagree with yourself - fine.
quote:

You seem to think the company that made them with inadequate R&D and testing of their product obviously deserves that money more.
They didn't, time and new information did. You belief the lawyers have concern? $3,000 didn't even pay for the original cost of the implant. The $56 Million was negligible to the company.

As often you do, you missed the entire point of the OP and got into tangents. The zero sum game passed money from one corporate industry, the manufacturer; to another - Lawyers. The consumer, the person you claim to want a better deal got nothing in the transaction. The small percentage of people damaged or killed is sad but unavoidable. The vast majority who don't have a problem with their implant, get the correct leg amputated, and did not get a mercury laced vaccine pay for this. That is the only intended point.

quote:

In other words, Corporations dont do things for the greater good.
Neither do individuals, especially lawyers.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 8:50:14 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Please provide your education, qualifications, and therapeutic records to support your psychiatric evaulation of me.
If it was simply an attempt to be insulting, you need more practice.
No it wasn't. I leave insults and name calling to the ignorant.


You stated I was afflicted by paranoia.  Want me to go back and quote your statement?

quote:

Please provide your source material to prove I think asbestos manufacturing is a criminal act.
quote:

The logic of your arguments say they should.  


I dont recall making any statement to that effect.  Care to clarify where I posted something that would give you this idea?

I always find it amusing when people misattribute statements, behaviors, or motivations to me.

quote:

In other words, Corporations dont do things for the greater good.
quote:

Neither do individuals, especially lawyers.


Fair enough.

I find it odd that corporations would lobby to pass laws to protect themselves.  What I find even more amusing is how willing people are to believe what the Corporatocracy tells them.

Let me give you another example, similar arguments were made about government greed, mismanagement, and corruption as being the reason why electricity should be deregulated in the state of California.  So people vote to deregulate it.  Suddenly, we have blackouts, brownouts, our power bills go up, our electrical infrastructure is overloaded over time and the energy companies dont bother to pay money to upgrade that infrastructure.

Prior to electricity being deregulated in California, we had far fewer problems than we do now.

Without attorneys, Exxon would not have been fined for screwing up Prince William Sound.

Sinergy


< Message edited by Sinergy -- 5/2/2007 8:51:32 PM >


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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 9:10:49 PM   
petdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Loser pays lawsuits will only protect corporate entities who can afford to have entire buildings filled with attorneys whose only purpose in life is to pass motions to delay and waste money and fritter away the resources of the litigant.


How? Unless i misunderstand the concept, the legal fees are still due after the conclusion of the case, no? If an individual complaintant can't afford the fees to challenge, say, Wal-Mart's army of litigators, he can't afford it, regardless of whether he'd be liable for their fees at the conclusion of the case or not. Is this measure also intended to be an end to contingency-based representation of plaintiffs?

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 9:28:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

well- pragmatically speaking- you need an atty to even fart anymore. 



dont kid yourself that is by design!   that is precisely why nobility was barred from office in the missing 13th


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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 9:33:28 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Practically every evil committed in the USA is a direct result of the actions of one group of people. They serve no purpose other than to increase their personal wealth corrupting the system with their actions. They are allowed to get away with it because of the illusion that they are serving us. Many believe it; looking in the future to "win the lottery". As a result every product and service is overpriced. Every action or "good deed" risks life altering consequences.

The problem is easy to resolve. A process of "loser pays" in lawsuits would end this nonsense. But the lawyers we elect to represent us would never let this happen. They scare the naive into believing that somehow their "rights" would be infringed. Why? A wrongful death would still prevail in a lawsuit.

This will go on as long as we let it. As a result you can sue a business for $67 Million over a lost pair of pants. Why not, the plaintiff is a lawyer, his costs are minimal. The defendant is a small business man. If he "wins" he still is out the cost of defense, it is rare to get costs in a lawsuit as the defendant. A business talking years to grow, is killed by the legal system.

quote:

The $67 Million Pants
Washington, D.C. Lawyer Sues Dry Cleaners for Lost Trousers

"People in America are now scared of each other," legal expert Philip Howard told ABC News' Law & Justice Unit. "That's why teachers won't put an arm around a crying child, and doctors order unnecessary tests, and ministers won't meet with parishioners. It's a distrust of justice and it's changing our culture."
The civil trial, set for June, has the scope of a John Grisham courtroom thriller and the societal importance of a traffic ticket.
Pearson plans to call 63 witnesses.  Source: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3119381&page=1



While I agree with you on a ''loser pays system'' ----  I could make a ten times more credible argument that the banking industry, ala the federal reserve /fractional reserve lending system, is far more diabolical in terms of the general welfare of this country.

I'd dump the bankers before the lawyers.



- R


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 5/2/2007 9:35:35 PM >


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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/2/2007 10:37:06 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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I don't think what you proposed is the core problem, but a big problem. Sign me up.

People are generally greedy, therefore every group needs a control in place to limit that greed. Presently lawyers have little to lose by rolling the dice, so the playing field is not even. If one lost monetarily when you lost the case, that would even the playing field.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 1:45:37 AM   
Vendaval


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Thank you for summing up that definition.  I was not sure if tort law applied to
individuals as well as corporations and organizations.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Would you please explain a bit about tort law?
Is that law in relation to business and legal entities?

"Tort Law " is a distinguishing term to differentiate from "Criminal Law". The most form of tort law relates to contracts, actual and/or implied. It can be between corporations and/or individuals.

People "incorporate" to protect themselves personal from potential litigation arising from their actions. The other tactic is to form LLC's (Limited Liability Corporations) where specific assets are exposed but the major assets of a corporation or individual are protected. Of course with the right lawyer under the right circumstance you can pierce the Corporate veil.


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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 2:37:16 AM   
Michaelat92544


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The core problem in the United States is that Americans actually listen to those from other countries. Americans KNOW that they are not perfect - know that they don't always have the right answers. When Americans hear some alternatively appropriate methods, they usually ignore them. Why? Americans are totally introspective and naive. How do I know this? I am an American.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 6:14:55 AM   
Aubre


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Tort reform is definitely in order.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 7:03:12 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I could make a ten times more credible argument that the banking industry, ala the federal reserve /fractional reserve lending system, is far more diabolical in terms of the general welfare of this country.

I'd dump the bankers before the lawyers.


Ranger,
I need you to flesh out your idea before agreeing completely. Without knowing your reference, I'd argue that bankers, at least under the definition I have in mind, provide capital which eventually generates industry. It provides funds to build factories and flesh out the ideas generated by ideas and R&D.

If your reference is to Banks and bankers who lend more money to individuals than they can afford, I'd agree.

Someone earlier in this thread brought up the personal greed factor contributing to legal industries explosion. The same holds for lenders. The tricks lenders play to lure a consumer to buy a product they can't afford is similar to the "contingency fee" bait lawyers use. Except in the case of lenders the security they hold, a house or car, has a greater impact on the consumer than the lost of a lawsuit. The frivolous purchase of a house or car beyond their means by a consumer has a much longer and more impacting consequence than the loss of a frivolous lawsuit.

I'd agree that the cost impact is also similar. The cost of credit includes the loss expectations for giving credit to unqualified consumers. You'd also make a case that the entire economy of the US is in jeopardy based upon bankers granting credit based upon the inflated, and somewhat artificial value placed on housing. The mortgage division of the banking industry is one recession away from catastrophe.

I've been an advocate for a "flat tax" or the new version the "consumption tax". One of the reasons it won't happen is the consequence of eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. Without that deduction, the property values in the US would be reduced by as much as 50%; and with it most of the personal "wealth". Every accountant will tell you to buy the most house you can afford and the biggest mortgage a lender will grant to take advantage of the biggest tax deduction available to an individual. If that goes away, as a result of a flat tax initiative, the banking system of the US collapses.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 9:16:08 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Loser pays lawsuits will only protect corporate entities who can afford to have entire buildings filled with attorneys whose only purpose in life is to pass motions to delay and waste money and fritter away the resources of the litigant.


How? Unless i misunderstand the concept, the legal fees are still due after the conclusion of the case, no? If an individual complaintant can't afford the fees to challenge, say, Wal-Mart's army of litigators, he can't afford it, regardless of whether he'd be liable for their fees at the conclusion of the case or not. Is this measure also intended to be an end to contingency-based representation of plaintiffs?



Let me give you a hypothetical example.

Walmart drops a crate on my kid.

I sue Walmart

Their attorneys continually ask for continuances, more information, request this, that, and the other thing, etc.  The court case drags on for days, weeks, years, eons, etc.

Eventually I give up or die.

Walmart sues me to pay their court costs because they were not determined to be at fault.

What incentive do I have to ask for damages?

Sinergy

p.s.  Another lovely example down on the docks.  A woman is driving a car and runs into a k-rail and ends up paralyzed.  The following shift, the shipping company had put up a stack of containers over the entire area and the k-rail was sent to another yard.  Which is not to say that it was not the woman's fault in this case (she was speeding after break, not wearing her seatbelt, and talking on her cell phone) but companies covering up their liability has become institutionalized.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 9:59:39 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I've been an advocate for a "flat tax" or the new version the "consumption tax". One of the reasons it won't happen is the consequence of eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. Without that deduction, the property values in the US would be reduced by as much as 50%; and with it most of the personal "wealth". Every accountant will tell you to buy the most house you can afford and the biggest mortgage a lender will grant to take advantage of the biggest tax deduction available to an individual. If that goes away, as a result of a flat tax initiative, the banking system of the US collapses.


Merc;

i cannot speak for UR, but my version is this.

The fed reserve system is a "debt" based system.  It was tried with the first national bank in the early 1800's and failed.  The flat tax was also tried and determined by our founders a failure, thus the apportionment part of the constitution.

The solution is to remove the fed reserve from the system entirely.  The irs would need to stay simply because "we the people" need some kind of auditor for "appropriate" taxes for our country.

The treasury must take over the money handling again so it is brought back under the control of "we the people" not the international bankers, (morgans, rothschilds, and 288 others)

You see the problem with the fed reserve is that we do not have control over our money, they are charging interest on that money that the treasury would have maade for us for "FREE" (cost of stamping and running presses are free for all intents and purposes), then with the fed we have to pay in the form of taxation for the use of money that would otherwise have been free!!!(again for all intents and purposes)

Ok now the biggest problem:  NO OVERSIGHT!!!  That is right if you go into office and have the authority to demand an audit of the fed reserve you will suffer an accident.   There is no oversight anywhere to be found of our gold that is supposedly in the fed reserve and has not been an audit since it was moved from fort knox.

Now another point to consider;  inflation is a hidden tax!!!  When the fed starts pumping money into the system the "first" people to use that money still have full value with preinflationary dollars.  (that would be the big boys with inside info)

By the time it reaches you, your dollar has already decreased to the valus of the inflation.

So if there is 1000 dollars in circulation, and now the fed dumps another 1000 bucks into the economy the first person to spend it is getting full value until the money has dispersed.  Once dispersed you now need 2 dollars to by the same amount of goods that the first bought at 1 dollar.

That delay is a killer and it is a one way street.  That is why inflation continually goes in one direction (as a whole) UP^^^^^

It keeps the cycle of money leaching going in one direction as a whole up^^^ to the people in control of it!!

So there are many aspects to this.  BEcause inflation then becomes a hidden tax there is no real incentive to change it from a gov standpoint.  That and because there is no oversight of the americaan people (or government) for that matter, they can write blank checks forever till this country is bankrupt literally with impunity.

Thank the monetary genius/crooks the rothchilds for this woderful system.

In the old days, (pre "traitor" wilson) and the federal reserve creation that is,  the gov used to have to come to "we the people" and ask for money to go to war!  Nice system hey?  They actually had to ask "US" we the people if we were willing to go to war and pay for it!!  Now we have control over the money.

The problem of course is that with fed res system, they can go to war any time they want or do what ever they want for any ignorant reason they want and we have to pay taxes to that end!  Ever look at some of the absolute garbage on these manifests that we are paying for?  They end up giving money to groups just to get rid of it, (so they can collect the same amount as the previous year),  and other groups flasify their needs just to get more or reatin the funding.

The fed gov is required to give us a full accounting of where the money is being spent and that has not happened......"since the creation of the fed res".

Does the irs send you a sheet showing you where the money is spent? NO and they never will.

THe problem is that the whole system is what we in engineering call a run away open ended system, in other words a one way street that is uncontrolled.

Again as for the flat tax it sounds like a wonderful idea but history proves that the same thing will happen and that is "creep"  it starts out reasonable and winds up unreasonable, look back in the records and you will find that some people have paid as much as ready?: 92% under the present system!!!

Anyway that is why the banking system as it is needs to go.  No one is saybing no banks and no loans, banking is just a general term for "federal reserve"  state banks or better county banks are fine, just no national bank as it would not be required with the treasury issuing the money and if we do pay interest it will ultimately go back into our pockets rather than being siphoned off to foriegn interests as it is now.

i think i am pretty close to correct on this, but a few people out here i think know this sytem better than i do.  may want to ask them.  That and attorneys, "all" nobility should be next!  Basically our government needs an overhaul and has for a very long time.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 10:41:22 AM   
luckydog1


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Sinergy why are you letting your kid play in the wharehouse where a crate can be dropped on him?  What incentive do you have to ask for damages?  Why should you get damages for letting your kid run around lose in restricted areas?  It should be an incentive to teach your kid not to play under the forklifts in a work zone. 

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 10:43:37 AM   
Aubre


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I don't have a problem with people suing to recover damages, but 67 mil for a pair of pants is unreal.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 10:46:38 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Their attorneys continually ask for continuances, more information, request this, that, and the other thing, etc.  The court case drags on for days, weeks, years, eons, etc.

Eventually I give up or die.
You may die, but why would your attorney, or his law firm "give up" in a loser's pays system? It makes no sense. Also, without the courts bogged down as they are now with $67 Million law suits for lost pants, courts would have open calenders and delays would be limited.
quote:

Another lovely example down on the docks.  A woman is driving a car and runs into a k-rail and ends up paralyzed.  The following shift, the shipping company had put up a stack of containers over the entire area and the k-rail was sent to another yard.  Which is not to say that it was not the woman's fault in this case (she was speeding after break, not wearing her seatbelt, and talking on her cell phone) but companies covering up their liability has become institutionalized.
The docks are not restricted for public driving? She went through some barrier and expects compensation for being injured? Would a person stowing away in the wheel well of a jet be entitled to compensation if he falls out?

One of the key reasons why corporations would welcome a loser pays environment is that if someone sues them because they got hurt doing something illegal or going into an area clearer marked restricted area; they wouldn't be subject to defending a resulting lawsuit. It is the same situation that counsels people that if they are defending their home against a burglar or some other home invader they should kill them and not injure them. There are countless lawsuits where criminals have sued their victims because they were injured during the crime. Again - this is only possible because it costs the plaintiff nothing, and even in "winning" the defendant homeowner - loses thousands of dollars in the defense process.

quote:

RealOne: Anyway that is why the banking system as it is needs to go.  No one is saying no banks and no loans, banking is just a general term for "federal reserve"  state banks or better county banks are fine, just no national bank as it would not be required with the treasury issuing the money and if we do pay interest it will ultimately go back into our pockets rather than being siphoned off to foreign interests as it is now.
Real, I didn't know which definition of "Bank" was being considered by Ranger. If he was considering the same definition as you, your response was on point and mine was a tangent. Of course you are correct the "Fed" controls all. Most are unaware of its inter-workings and the effect on our lives.

A "flat-tax" or even a "consumption tax" (aka-national sales tax) is really only a drinks & dinner discussion. Considering the tax industry, tax law industry, accounting industry, and the mortgage industry; dissolving the IRS system is not going to happen.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/3/2007 11:00:59 AM >

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 12:40:48 PM   
caitlyn


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Keep in mind that this is a grand total of one case, that is "clogging up the court" by exactly one case, and that as of yet, nobody has been awarded a single penny of money. We do not know the terms in place for the defendant's lawyers. As of right now, we don't know much at all, other than how sensational this can look on paper, or on a message board.
 
The system needs reform, but as long as people sensationalize the issue, we will only end up with TORT reform like that signed in Texas in 1995, created by Karl Rove and signed by then Governor Bush, and the wonderful 2003 legislation signed by Governor Perry, that caps medical liability at $250,000, and basically requires you to get one doctor to testify against the other, in ordert to win at all.
 
Both of these pieces of legislation, have been disasters for consumers in Texas, especially the victims of medical malpractice.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 12:54:30 PM   
Mercnbeth


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caitlyn,
I visit sites that publishes frivolous lawsuits, want to see some? One is named after Stella Leibeck, winner of $2.9 Million because her McDonald's coffee was too hot.

True - no money has been awarded in this case, but here are some examples where money was. Keep in mind - one example of an award inspires thousands of others to try.

quote:


  • Kathleen Robertson of Austin, TX, was awarded $780,000 after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was running amuck inside a furniture store. It was her own son.
  • Carl Truman, 19, of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical expenses when his neighbor ran over his hand with a Honda Accord while he was stealing the hubcaps.
  • Terrence Dickson was escaping through the garage of a Bristol, PA, house he had just robbed while the family was on vacation, but was trapped due to a malfunctioning automatic garage door opener. He survived for over a week on a case of Pepsi and a large bag of dry dog food and then sued the homeowner for "undue mental anguish." The jury doled out half a million dollars.
  • Jerry Williams of Little Rock, AR, was awarded $14,500 and medical expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next-door neighbor's beagle. It was less than sought since the jury felt the pet may have been provoked when Williams shot at the chained animal with a pellet gun in the owner's fenced-in yard.
  • Kara Walton of Claymont, DE, was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses from the owner of a nightclub when she fell from the bathroom window and knocked out her two front teeth trying to avoid the $3.50 cover charge.
  • But... makers of Dorothy Johnson's microwave were found not liable for the death of her poodle after she attempted to dry it after a bath by putting it in for just a few minutes "on low."

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 1:21:12 PM   
caitlyn


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I'm glad you pointed out the McDonalds case. It is a perfect example of sensationalizing a lawsuit, by omitting compelling facts that led to the award.

http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

It has also come to light that McDonalds later settled a similar case out of court, where they served coffee that was actually boiling.

Edited to add ... you might also find it interesting that Starbucks, the nation's coffee sales leader, has never been taken to court for injuries caused from scalding coffee, nor have they ever settled a case out of court. 

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 5/3/2007 1:33:23 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 2:10:05 PM   
Mercnbeth


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The McDonald's case, and in fact all those others where the plaintiff prevailed, would have had no different result in a "loser pays" system.

There always needs to be place to bring these issues involving damages to a court. For some people who don't play the lottery the legal industry is their best, and perhaps only, opportunity for wealth. I only suggest that there should be an equitable risk involved for all the parties involved. Cases would get resolved much quicker if contingency fee lawyers weren't soliciting for cases. Now, the attorney's risk nothing, and cases like Stella's are the exception. More regular are "settlements" that just so happen to equal the amount of the desired fee by the plaintiff attorney. "Justice" and compensation to the plaintiff are way down the list of concerns.

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RE: The Core Problem in the USA - 5/3/2007 2:13:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I had some hopes for this thread till I read on and saw that you're talking about trial lawyers.  Oh, that's right, all the ills of American society are caused by trial lawyers.

On to the next thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Practically every evil committed in the USA is a direct result of the actions of one group of people. They serve no purpose other than to increase their personal wealth corrupting the system with their actions. They are allowed to get away with it because of the illusion that they are serving us.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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