RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 9:57:17 PM)

 
Thank you, Mellissande,

But I think they meant it the way they said it.

The tragedy for me is that I am forced to live in a world where such words would be said.  I love empowering people, I hate the fact that I empower people.  But then, I am a Taoist, and nothing exists (and everything define's itself by) without the opposing principle.  What I enjoy about what I am doing is that I teach people to fight for their lives, and teach them how important it is to never be in a fight.

Sinergy




velvetears -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 9:58:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

Velvetears, I was not resisting. I was right along with him until he started to try to actually insert. And by the way, he was 18 and I was 16. he was old by no means, he was still a virgin as well... I just decided that I didn't want sex and he was too close to getting something he'd wanted for a long time... I was a virgin at the time and By the time I decided I wanted to sytay that way, he was too ready...


i hope he got what he deserved (jail) for what he did. Just because you went along doesn't give him the right to not stop when you said no.  You did nothing wrong.





Mellissande -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:00:40 PM)

I am sorry Sinergy, and No he did not get jailed... I never told anybody... Well, not until after he moved away...




mistoferin -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:07:13 PM)

Can sexual release be a motivation for rape? Sure it can. Can rape occur without elements of power and control? No, it can't. If sex is the initial motivating factor, is it what sustains the act of rape from beginning to end?....not likely. At some point during the course of it, power, control, anger, a desire to degrade or humiliate usually takes the lead. Those are the things that seperate rapists from horny guys.

When I was 18 I was violently raped by two men. When the attack began they told me that they just wanted to "get them some". For the next few hours they repeatedly raped, beat, kicked, broke my bones, sliced my flesh and tortured me. They laughed, they called me names and made fun of the predicament I was in. I fought, I screamed, I begged. I envisioned newspaper headlines, my body floating face down in a ditch, my family standing beside my casket. I found myself strangely hovering above myself, watching my body being destroyed. When they were satisfied that I was most likely dead, they tossed me out of a car going down the highway, naked in the pouring rain. During the course of the attack, the fact that there were penises involved was probably the most insignificant aspect to me....it wasn't until much later that I would realize how detrimental to me that part of it would be. Was it about sex? Well, they said it was. Sure didn't seem like it on my end.

Thankfully, my body didn't respond in a sexual way. I think that fact made it easier for me to get beyond it. But it can and does happen during rape and it doesn't mean the victim is "liking it"....no more than their clothing or their behavior means they are "asking for it".





Sinergy -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:10:23 PM)

Thank you, Mellissande, but you do not need to apologize.

I do what I do because I want somebody, maybe 1000s of years after I am dead, to live in a world without violence.

I will deal with it in my own way.

Enjoy your evening

Sinergy




Mellissande -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:14:02 PM)

I am so sorry for your experience Erin, I can't even begin to imagine how you would feel after something like that. But I am happy for the fact that you survived and are here to talk with us now. My rapist was my boyfriend at the time and remained so for months afterwards...




mistoferin -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:16:54 PM)

As I am sorry for yours. I believe that I would have had a much more difficult time recovering had my attackers been someone I knew and trusted. That fact adds insult to injury.




Mellissande -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:22:47 PM)

Yeah it does, But by far yur experience was much worse than mine. I Cannot even seem to consider what happened to me rape after hearing your story... Ans yours is a noble quest Sinergy. I hope that your wish will come true. Someday...




CuriousLord -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:26:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mellissande

I am sorry Sinergy, and No he did not get jailed... I never told anybody... Well, not until after he moved away...


My slave got back from the DA's yesterday, crying.  Her rapist wouldn't be tried.  The DA said her word vs. his won't stand in court.

Not much you can do at times.




mistoferin -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:26:19 PM)

Mellissande, there are no rapes that are "better" or "worse". Violation is violation. Please don't ever feel that way.




Mellissande -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:36:44 PM)

You're right, both of you. I think I was raped a second time... I am just now remembering it though... It was when I was drunk once... I had been coming onto a guy, but I blacked out and I don't know what happened... I remember when I came to he was having sex with me... but I don't remember how it started... I am talking right now to a friend who was there at the time... but I really don't know what happened...




Mellissande -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 10:43:04 PM)

I guess that kinda sounds like a story I pulled out of my ass... But I swear it is true... but I don't know... was it rape?

Edited to say that I don't want a response, please... The lack of response thus far kinda makes me feel at fault. and I don't think I could bear if someone were to call me a liar...




Casie -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 11:07:26 PM)

It's still rape. There are lots of documented cases where the woman (or man to be politically correct) have became arroused during a rape. It is not uncommon. I think that adds to the emotional devistation of the victom.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/3/2007 11:14:08 PM)

Now there's an intelligent post.  Where have you been since 2/2/05?  You should post more often.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

Velvetears, I'm afraid CuriousLord is correct, at least so far as the research is concerned.  The whole "rape is solely an act of violence" theory was always more a product of sociological work and pop psychology than any real empirical study of the pathology of rapists.    The psychological community at large now seems to at last be going through efforts to distance itself from this slogan on the grounds it is overly simplistic.   But the phrase is likely to endure, I suspect, if only because of it's wide use in psychiatry, often in trying to help women come to terms with what has happened to them.  After all, who cares what the most accurate classification of the rapist's motives are when a victim needs a reason to explain why someone would harm her in this manner.

But in any account,  your debate is largely one of semantics and certainly not something that lends itself to strict empirical exclamations of what the ultiamte driving factor is.  For obvious reasons, we can't stick electrodes in the heads of rapists to tell us which areas of the rbeain are showing intensive firing during the act, as we can many other actions.   Short of that, any debate on drives is prone to all the pitfalls that plague any kind of study of pragmatic psychology.   And both of you start fromt he tacit assumption that these two drives, sexual arousal and and the thrill of power, are two spereate entities -- something that tells me neither of you has done all that much research in the field -- whereas serious study in mind and behavioursim has firmly established that we do not dissect or process excitment int his way.    That is to say, we have general arousal, often with a strong physiological componenet, that we then impose a mental construct of an emotion or drive over, often arbitrarily and after the fact.  Even if you chose not to trust me on this point,   I can't see how anyone can see absolutist statement in drives, especially in a case of sucha  muddled pheneomena where 1) indviddual pathologies are varied and complex and 2) its study is further confused by the prejudices we bring into the subject matter.




Vendaval -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/4/2007 3:36:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddyDeSade

Last time I checked orgasm was a physical thing a person could not always control. Especially possibly because my friend had always fantasized about rape. So her body could experience something her mind was not totally on board with. Which was another thing she had to work out in therapy. If anything she is more into fake rape now then before as a way of working through the trauma on her own terms. But I have to say it was still definitely rape.
 
Yes, physical stimulation causes physical reactions, whether we consent to experiencing those sensations or not.

How could educated young ladies of maybe 20-21 in university be so foolish? I know they are in at least one critical thinking class because that was the class I was sitting in on when I met them.

Education does not equal wisdom.  Life experience is the hardest teacher and the lessons are usually the most painful
and strongest remembered.  

Then again, some individuals are unable to learn no matter what the situation and outcome.
 
Your Mileage May Vary!
 
Welcome to the CM Forums.  [:)]
 
 
Vendaval
 




darkinshadows -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/4/2007 3:54:36 AM)

Velvet -
 
The motivation for rape is many things.
A large percentage is control and power related.
Some is to be dominant.
Some is humiliation.
 
However there are cases where rape is simply for sexual release.  Rape is NOT defined simply as an act of violence to control another.  It is defined as a sexually violent act that is not consented by the victim.  If it was the first defintion, then the scenario of a drunken college girl passed out who finds someone had sexual intercourse with her wouldnt be rape(by your defintion) simply because a guy wanted to get off.  Which is of course bull because the girl was still raped, try telling that to some of the rape victims I have dealt with.  Just because you havent come across them in your times, does not mean they do not exist.
  You are arguing over semantics of case studies that show that the majority of rapes occur due to the need for the attacker to be in some sort of control and yes the studies do say this is major reason - but it isnt the only one.  However, saying its never about sex is then denying those raped from a sexual standpoint that they have been raped and that is a gross overgeneralistation.  CL is simply saying that there are cases where sex was the only motivation - no matter how small an amount of cases there are, there are still cases.
 
Peace and Rapture




FirmhandKY -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/4/2007 4:31:07 AM)

  Natural History of Rape
    Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion
    By RANDY THORNHILL and CRAIG T. PALMER
    The MIT Press
    (C) 2000 Massachusetts Institute of Technology All rights reserved. ISBN: 0-262-20125-9


Chapter 6

    The Social Science Explanation of Rape

    Zuleyma Tang-Martinez's phrase "a feminist psychosocial analysis" (1997, p. 122) accurately describes what has become the dominant explanation of rape in the social sciences over the past 25 years. This explanation developed after certain feminist assertions were added to the "learning theory" that has been the bedrock of social science for much of the last 100 years. Because the phrase "feminist psychosocial analysis" is a bit awkward, we will refer to it as "the social science explanation."

    The social scientists we mean are those whose "research" has been guided more by ideology-driven social arguments than by science. For a definition of feminism, we rely on Gowaty (1992, p. 218): "a movement to end sexist oppression."

    We have been told that some of the positions we are about to criticize have been abandoned by social scientists studying rape. We are not convinced. Not only does the recent literature on rape repeat these positions; assertions reflecting these positions often continue to be made by the same people who claim that the arguments have been abandoned (Palmer et al. 1999). Hence, we feel our use of the label "the social science explanation" is quite justified.

    Learning Theory

    The social science approach to rape is based on learning theorists' assertion that culture is a non-biological entity and that it causes the behavior and the desires of men and women through a powerful process known as "learning."1 Hence, rape occurs only when men learn to rape. One reason why so much of social science pays little attention to scientific standards is that this "learning theory" is almost metaphysical, so that making the implicit evolutionary assumptions of the learning theory of rape explicit is especially challenging.

...

    "Rape Is Not Sex"

    To the general framework of learning theory many feminist social scientists added the assertion that "sexual coercion is motivated by power, not lust" (Stock 1991, p. 61). This addition made male dominance a larger target of feminist opposition. This view was first put forth by Millett (1971), Griffin (1971), and Greer (1970). When popularized by Brownmiller (1975), it quickly became the central tenet in social science explanations of rape. As Warner (1980, p. 94) notes, "it is now generally accepted by criminologists, psychologists, and other professionals working with rapists and rape victims that rape is not primarily a sex crime, it is a crime of violence." Further, the idea of rape as "a political act that indicated nothing about male sexuality" (Symons 1979, p. 104) became a "focal point of feminist theory" (Sanders 1980, p. 22). Indeed, by the mid 1980s rape had become the "master symbol of women's oppression" (Schwendinger and Schwendinger 1985, p. 93). This intertwining of explanations of rape and political ideology has caused the naturalistic fallacy to play a truly impressive role in the social science study of rape.

    In combination, learning theory and the feminist assertion that rape is motivated by a desire for control and dominance produced the view that rape is caused by supposedly patriarchal cultures where males are taught to dominate, and hence rape, women.

...

    It is difficult to overestimate the power the "not sex" theory of rape continues to have. Murphey (1992, p. 18) offers a typical example from the popular press: "Joan Beck, a nationally published columnist based with the Chicago Tribune, was able to say in April 1991 that 'if there is still any lingering misconception that rape is a crime of sexual passion, it's important to drive a stake through the heart of that idea as quickly as possible. . . .'" Jones (1990, pp. 64-65) explicitly praises Brownmiller's 1975 book for having taught feminists that "sexual and physical violence against women is not 'sexual' at all but simply violent."4 Sanday (1990, p. 10) states that during rape "the sexual act is not concerned with sexual gratification but with the deployment of the penis as a concrete symbol of masculine social power." Donat and D'Emilio (1992, p. 15) write that among feminists in the 1960s "rape was recognized as an act of violence, not of sex." White and Farmer (1992, p. 47) state that "feminist assumptions . . . generally de-emphasize the potential contribution that biologically driven sexual motives may play in the commitment of sexual assault." Morris (1987, p. 128) writes that "most feminist writers . . . see rape as a violent act [and] argue that the use of force or physical coercion is the central feature of rape."

    As an indication of the strength and the pervasiveness of these assumptions among social scientists,5 consider the following quotation:

    We cannot overestimate the influence of feminist theorists such as Brownmiller upon the thinking of current researchers. Many investigators, while not necessarily testing the assumption in their studies, presume that rape is a manifestation of male dominance over and control of women." (Sorenson and White 1992, pp. 3-4)

    That "Brownmiller's book established decisively that rape is a crime of violence rather than passion" (Buchwald et al. 1993, p. 1) is the starting point for most feminist studies of rape, since that book "has been recognized as the cornerstone of feminist scholarship on rape" (Ward 1995, p. 19). In 1992, Susan Brownmiller herself endorsed the "feminist" view she had popularized in the 1970s: "The central insight of the feminist theory of rape identifies the act as a crime of violence committed against women as a demonstration of male domination and power." (Brownmiller and Mehrhof 1992, p. 382) Davies (1997, p. 133) stated that it is a contention of feminists "that rape is an act of power, not sex." Polaschek et al. (1997, p. 128) argue that feminist theories view rape as primarily motivated by male dominance, and furthermore that evolutionary theories proposing "sexual motivation for rape, with associated aggressive and dominating behavior viewed as tactics rather than goals" are "in stark contrast to feminist . . . and broader social learning positions."

    That the "not sex" explanation remains popular among feminists, and that it has dominated feminist writings on rape, is even admitted by some individuals who point out that not all feminists have supported it. For example, Muehlenhard et al. (1996, p. 129) admit that "in general, . . . feminist theorists have emphasized the goals of dominating and controlling rape victims and women in general."

...

    When some feminists appear to be challenging the dominant feminist position by arguing that rape is about sex, they actually mean that "it is social sex, not biological sex, that rape is about" (Bell 1991, p. 88). Further, "social sex" is the motivation for rape only when sex is socially constructed to be the same thing as power and violence. For example, Scully and Marolla (1995, p. 66) state that "from the rapists' point of view rape is in part sexually motivated," but they emphasize that this is only because "they have learned that in this culture sexual violence is rewarding" (ibid., p. 71). Jackson (1995) states that rape is sexual, but only because our culture has given us "sexual scripts" that happen to equate sex with power and aggression. Hence, according to Jackson's theory, rape is impossible when people are given "sexual scripts" in which sexuality is "not bound up with power and aggression." Jackson attempted to validate this position by citing Margaret Mead's (1935) description of "the Mountain Ara-pesh of New Guinea" as "the most famous example of a society where rape is unknown"--a society in which there is "no element in [the] sexual scripts which could create the possibility of rape" (ibid., p. 27). In reality, however, the Arapesh are quite familiar with rape--see below.

...

    Flaws in the Social Science Explanation of Rape

    The social science explanation of rape has five major errors:· The assumptions it makes about human nature are not compatible with current knowledge about evolution.· Its assertion that rape is not sexually motivated is based on arguments that cannot withstand skeptical analysis.· Its predictions are not consistent with the cross-cultural data on human rape.· It does not account for the occurrence of rape in other species.

   It rests on several assertions that belong more to metaphysics than to science. After describing these errors, we will examine how they are reflected in the empirical data produced by the social science theory of rape. We will then describe how ideological concerns have maintained the popularity of the social science explanation of rape despite its failure as a scientific explanation.

    Incompatibilities with Evolutionary Theory

    Any explanation of human behavior makes an implicit assertion about human nature. This is because, as the psychologists Martin Daly and Margo Wilson (1996, p. 23) point out, all "sociological, economic, and political hypotheses are necessarily built on implicit psychological hypotheses about how individual human actors perceive and are affected by social, economic, and political variables." Since nearly all social scientists claim to accept evolution, all their explanations of human behavior are implicitly evolutionary. Only if they make their evolutionary assumptions explicit, however, can these theories be properly evaluated in light of the modern understanding of evolution. We will now attempt to make the evolutionary assumptions of the social science theory of rape explicit.

    The most fundamental premise of the social science theory of rape-- that an individual's psychology is "determined" solely or mostly as a result of socialization--implies something close to the classic tabula rasa view of human nature. Based on the false assumption that aspects of living organisms can be divided into biological and non-biological categories, this view holds that human "biological" nature consists of a few basic needs (sex, love, respect, affection), but that these can be combined or separated in any way that the non-biological entity of culture dictates. Indeed, these desires and emotions are sometimes asserted to be present only when a culture dictates their existence. Hence, violent behavior is something that exists only when it is taught, and individuals will find sexually attractive only those beings and other objects in the environment that they are told to find sexually attractive. On the further assumption that there are no differences between the "biological" natures of human males and human females, males and females respond to the same cultural instructions in the same manner.

    These propositions are entirely at odds with current knowledge about evolution because they fail to acknowledge that selection has shaped the psychology of human learning and decision making. If the referent of "a culture" is restricted to what can be identified by the senses, a culture is seen to consist of no more than a number of individuals interacting in certain ways. If the psychology and the learning capacities of these individuals are seen as products of selection at the individual level, then a culture is a conglomeration of individuals, each designed to engage successfully in social competition with other individuals (Alexander 1979; Cronk 1995; Flinn 1997). Individuals may form alliances and cooperate, but only when such cooperation is a successful tactic in their competition.

    Once the basic premise that human psychology and culture are products of selection at the individual level is understood, the implausibility of the social science view of human nature is revealed simply by asking these questions: What would have been the evolutionary fate of individuals in ancestral populations who possessed the nature implied by the social science explanation? How would they have fared in reproductive competition with individuals who had a more specialized set of psychological adaptations? In particular, what would be the evolutionary fate of individuals who engaged in the high-cost behavior of violence only when they were told to do so by others (including individuals who were their reproductive competitors)? Because violent behavior has very high costs, this would have given a tremendous advantage to the competitors, who could simply instruct susceptible rivals to engage in violence when the potential benefits of such competition were low and to forgo violence when the potential benefits were high. Males who engaged in violence with no benefits simply because they were taught to do so must be no one's evolutionary ancestors, because they soon would have been outreproduced by males with specialized psychological mechanisms predisposing them to engage in aggression only when the benefits outweighed the costs. Indeed, there is much evidence of the finely tuned design of violent behavior in terms of the costs and benefits of aggression as a solution to very specific problems for the aggressor. Evolutionary biologists have studied aggression intensively across a wide variety of animal species, especially in the last 25 years. A rich empirical base supports the evolutionary view that aggression has evolved as a result of selection, and that therefore aggression is condition-ally patterned in relation to predictable ecological factors that affect its benefits and its costs. (See, e.g., Elwood et al. 1998.7)

    Reproductive failure also would befall an individual who could be instructed to form cooperative relationships with others who intended to exploit his trust and love. Altruism and cooperation can increase reproductive success only when they are directed toward genetic relatives or toward reliable reciprocators (Trivers 1971). The individual whose psychological systems predisposed him or her to exhibit helpfulness in arbitrary ways, as directed by his "culture," would have been most unlikely to outreproduce competitors. Hence, the individual proposed by social science theory to have such flexible emotions would have become no one's ancestor.

    An equally unsuccessful fate would await individuals who were sexually aroused only by individuals they were instructed to desire. Sexual attraction and arousal have many non-arbitrary features, including species, sex, age, and health. (See chapter 2 above.) Males or females in human evolutionary history who mated randomly with regard to any of these characteristics of potential mates are also no one's evolutionary ancestors. Males or females in human evolutionary history who mated only with the mates they were told to mate with by their evolutionary competitors quickly eliminated from the gene pool the genetic basis for the development of this kind of learning "ability." For example, competitors could quickly reduce the reproductive success of such individuals to zero by telling them not to be sexually attracted to desirable members of the opposite sex.

    That males and females not only have very flexible general sexual adaptations but have the same general sexual adaptations is even less plausible. Males and females in human evolutionary history were presented with very different problems of selecting and competing for mates, and thus women and men have differently designed sexual psychologies. The kind of males and females proposed by social science theorists would have been quickly outreproduced by more specialized males and females whose psychological mechanisms inclined them to behave in ways that solved the sexual challenges facing their specific sex more efficiently.

    Rape and Sexual Motivation

    As the literature cited above demonstrates, the social science theory of rape rests on the assumption that a non-sexual motivation (such as a desire for power, control, domination, and/or violence) is both necessary and sufficient for a rape to occur. Aside from ignoring evolution and the ultimate level of explanation, this assumption can be accepted only if one accepts a bizarre definition of 'sex', suspends logic in the evaluation of supporting arguments, and abandons all skepticism in evaluating evidence. As the literature cited above, in Palmer 1988a, and in Palmer et al. 1999 demonstrates, many social scientists still imply that sexual desire is not sufficient or even necessary as a motivation for rape. This position, which remains at the heart of the social science explanation of rape, is routinely used to make pronouncements on what individuals ought to do to prevent rape.

    There is no question that multiple motivations may be involved in any human behavior. An individual rapist may be motivated by a desire for revenge against a particular woman who turned down his earlier sexual advances, by a desire to humiliate or inflict pain on a particular woman or on women in general out of hatred for his own mother, by a desire to impress other males by losing his virginity, or by any of a countless number of other possible motivations. But have social scientists really demonstrated that any rapist is not at least partially motivated by sexual desire? Indeed, could any rape really take place without any sexual motivation on behalf of the rapist? Isn't sexual arousal of the rapist the one common factor in all rapes, including date rapes, pedophilic rapes, rapes of women under anesthesia, and rapes committed by soldiers during war? Further, would a rapist have to have any of the possible non-sexual motivations in order to commit a rape? Isn't it possible for a male's sole motivation for committing a rape to be a desire for sexual gratification?

    One reason these seemingly obvious points have been obscured is that social scientists typically present the issue in terms of whether rape is "an act of" sex, "an act of" violence, or both. Perhaps by intention, use of the phrase "an act of" blurs the difference between the goals that provide the motivation for rape and the tactics used to accomplish those goals. Rape is obviously not the same act as consensual copulation, because by definition rape implies the use of certain distinct tactics (e.g., force or the threat of force). But that doesn't mean that the motivation of the male necessarily differs.

    The importance of distinguishing between the goals that motivate a behavior and the tactics used to accomplish those goals becomes clear when one considers prostitution. The act of prostitution includes both a person giving money to another person and a sexual act. Does this mean that a man who goes to a female prostitute is motivated by a desire to give money to a woman? Does it even mean that the man is motivated by both a desire for sex and a desire to give his money to a woman? A man might have numerous motivations for going to a prostitute, but isn't it possible that the man lacks any desire to give his money to the woman? Isn't it indeed likely that the man gives his money to the woman only as a tactic to gain the desired goal of sex, which is the sole motivation of his behavior? Further, isn't it possible that the man would much prefer to have sex with the woman without having to give her money? If the same "logic" that has been used in the social science explanation of rape were to be applied to prostitution, people would be asserting that going to a prostitute is an "act of altruism, not sex," or at least that it is "an act of both altruism and sex."




There's a lot more interesting stuff, but I figured this was long enough, and on topic.

FirmKY





FirmhandKY -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/4/2007 4:37:44 AM)

 Chapter 3

    Why Do Men Rape?

    Selection favored different traits in females and males, especially when the traits were directly related to mating. Although some of these differences could have arisen from what Darwin called natural selection, most of them are now believed to have evolved through sexual selection.

    The males of most species--including humans--are usually more eager to mate than the females, and this enables females to choose among males who are competing with one another for access to them. But getting chosen is not the only way to gain sexual access to females. In rape, the male circumvents the female's choice.

    To appreciate the significance of female choice in human evolution, it helps to remember that adaptations evolved because they helped individuals overcome obstacles to individual reproductive success. In ancestral populations of many species, including humans, the difficulty of obtaining the parental investment of a choosy member of the other sex was a prominent obstacle to reproductive success for individuals of the sex with the lesser parental investment. That is, the difficulty of gaining sexual access to choosy females was a major obstacle to reproductive success for males. Owing to the significance of this obstacle throughout evolutionary history, there would have been strong and effective selection pressures favoring traits in males that increased their access to mates.

    One means of gaining access to a selective female is to have traits that females prefer. If possession of certain resources increased a male's chances of being chosen as a sexual partner by a female, there would have been selection for males who were motivated and able to accumulate those resources. If the ability to influence other males increased a male's chances of being chosen as a sexual partner by a female, there would have been selection for males who were motivated and able to attain influential status. If success in physical competition with other males affected the number of sexual partners a male could secure, there would have been selection for traits in males that made them more successful in such competition. Perhaps most important, there would have been selection for intense sexual desires in males that motivated them to seek sexual sensations and, hence, drove them to strive in the activities that led to those sensations. And these desires would have been designed to peak in adolescence and early adult-hood, when males attempt to enter the breeding population and when competition for mates is most intense.

...

    Rape as a Type of Sexual Selection

    Smuts and Smuts (1993) have suggested that sexual coercion is best conceptualized as a third type of sexual selection (in addition to mate choice and intrasex competition) rather than as merely a form of intrasex selection. (Sexual coercion, a broader term than rape, is defined as obtaining sexual access by intimidation, harassment, and/or physical force.) Like intrasex competition and intersex mate choice, sexual coercion affects differential access to mates. Of course sexual coercion interacts with the other two forms of sexual selection, but it is conceptually distinct from them for the following reason: A sexually coercive male may succeed in the competition for mates by coercing mating even though he loses in male-male competition for females and is not chosen as a mate by a female.

    Because all three forms of sexual coercion--physically forced mating, harassment, and intimidation1--have significant survival and/or reproductive costs for females, a variety of female traits evolved because they reduced those costs. Indeed, many aspects of female social behavior-- including pair bonding with a male and female-female alliances across species--may be explicable as adaptations against male sexual coercion (Smuts and Smuts 1993; Mesnick 1997).

...

    This is not to say that men are sexually aroused by violence per se. They aren't (Thornhill and Thornhill 1992a; Lohr et al. 1997; Quinsey et al. 1984). Nor is it to say that the motivation to dominate and brutalize the victim is paramount, or even necessary, in rape causation. Rapists rarely engage in gratuitous violence, defined as expending energy beyond what is required to subdue or control the victim and inflicting injuries that reduce the victim's chance of surviving to become pregnant or that heighten the risk of eventual injury to the rapist from enraged relatives of the victim (all ultimate costs of rape). Thornhill and Thornhill (1992a), having reviewed much of the literature pertaining to men's sexual arousal in response to laboratory depictions of rape, concluded that "not only incarcerated rapists but many other men (the studies collectively implicate young men in general) are sexually aroused to similar degrees by stimuli explicitly portraying consensual sex and rape" (p. 376). This conclusion, however, requires certain qualifications because of recent research. Since the review, a quantitative or meta-analytic review has been published showing that, overall in studies, incarcerated rapists exhibit significantly more sexual arousal in response to depictions of sexual coercion involving physical force than men who have not been convicted of sex offenses (Lalumiére and Quinsey 1994; Hall et al. 1993). But the older literature as well as more recent literature on non-incarcerated men's arousal during exposure to rape depictions indicates that many normal men (college students and community volunteers) are significantly sexually aroused by depictions of coercive sex, including depictions involving physically aggression (Thornhill and Thornhill 1992a,b; Lohr et al. 1997; Proulx et al. 1994).
...


Summary

    Although the question whether rape is an adaptation or a by-product can-not yet be definitively answered, the evolutionary approach illuminates many aspects of why men rape. The ultimate causes of human rape are clearly to be found in the distinctive evolution of male and female sexuality. The evidence demonstrates that rape has evolved as a response to the evolved psychological mechanisms regulating female sexuality, which enabled women to discriminate among potential sex partners. If human females had been selected to be willing to mate with any male under any circumstances, rape would not occur. On the other hand, if human males had been selected to be sexually attracted to only certain females under certain limited circumstances, rape would be far less frequent. Indeed, if human males had been selected to desire sexual intercourse only with females who showed unmistakable willingness to copulate with them, rape would be an impossibility. Human rape exists because selection did not favor these types of adaptations, and the proximate causes of human rape lie in the different adaptations of male and female sexuality that were formed by selection in human evolutionary history. Hence, the sexual adaptations that exist in men and women, described in chapter 2, provide the best guide to creating environments that will decrease the frequency of rape.

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 Chapter 4


Sexual Behaviors

    In a final analysis of this data set (Thornhill and Thornhill 1991), the influence of the nature of the sexual behavior on the victim's psychological pain was examined. The type of sexual behavior involved in sexual assaults should be related to the man's sexual motivation. If men have evolved sexual preferences for fertile women, then women of reproductive age--relative to pre- or post-reproductive-age females--should more often be victims of sexual assaults that include penile-vaginal intercourse, ejaculation in the victim's reproductive tract, and repeated intercourse. In general, all three of these predictions are supported by the data (Thornhill and Thornhill 1991). These three predictions complement the prediction that reproductive-age women should be highly overrepresented among female rape victims--something that now has been shown repeatedly in a variety of wartime and peacetime settings. It appears, then, that men prefer to rape young women, and that when they rape such women they are more strongly sexually motivated than when they rape pre- or post-reproductive-age females.

    The view that men who rape are sexually motivated is also supported by the evidence that men are more likely to rape reproductive-age females even though they may resist more.

    The finding that sexually assaulted non-reproductive-age females are less likely than reproductive-age females to experience penile-vaginal intercourse or multiple copulations or to receive the rapist's ejaculate vaginally does not imply that rapists of non-reproductive-age females lack sexual motivation entirely. Single penile-vaginal copulations and assaults involving anal intercourse, fellatio or cunnilingus, and other forced touching of the female's genitals depend proximately on a perpetrator's sexual interest.

    The difference in the sexual behaviors experienced by reproductive-age victims during sexual assaults is not the reason that such victims have greater psychological pain (Thornhill and Thornhill 1991). Pre-reproductive-age girls who were victims of penile-vaginal intercourse were no more psychologically traumatized than pre-reproductive-age girls who were not. The same appeared to be true of post-reproductive-age women. Yet reproductive-age women who were victims of penile-vaginal copulation reported more psychological pain than those who were victims of other sexual behaviors (e.g., fellatio, cunnilingus, anal intercourse) with-out penile-vaginal intercourse. It is only in reproductive-age females that penile-vaginal intercourse is associated with an increase in psychological pain after a sexual attack.

    There was also evidence that reproductive-age females, but not infertile victims, suffer more psychological pain when sperm is ejaculated inside them during rape than when it is not. This effect of ejaculation was smaller than that of penile-vaginal intercourse, and there was no effect of repeated episodes of copulation on the psychological pain of reproductive-age victims (Thornhill and Thornhill 1991).

    Thus, as predicted, degree of psychological pain closely follows the likelihood that rape circumvents female mate choice. Since copulation is highly correlated with ejaculation in men (Symons 1979), victims' awareness of sperm receipt and multiple copulation may be less reliable indicators of risk of fertilization than their cognizance of copulation.





farglebargle -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/4/2007 4:46:13 AM)

General Question, related to my question "Is rape inherently evil?"

What is the difference between Rape and Torture?




Viridana -> RE: Is it rape if she likes it? (5/4/2007 5:35:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Alright, I was just paraphrasing.  Whatever floats your boat.  Then you may answer my previous post with the phrase "violence and control, degradation and humiliation" in place of instances of "domination".

If it were only about the sex, the rapist wouldn't have to rape. Then he wouldn't have to use violence or other means, like sedatives, to get what he wants. As soon as the person feels the need or urge to violate that person  he wants to have sex with it becomes about the violence and domination and not about the sex.

I've researched this stuff alot and both been raped, taken care of girls who have been raped as well as interviewed a rapist. I agree with velvettears wholeheartedly on this as I, with all due respect, trust the resarch, publishings and findings of trained professionals that have studied this era over your skeptizism of researches in a clinical setting all together.




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