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Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/3/2007 10:54:08 PM   
Jasmyn


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Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
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quote:

Simple
Submissive men are damaged.

Domination comes naturally to the gender with the greater testosterone. Submissive men are a fundamental repudiation of what it means to be a man. Much like the insecure Dom, they're driven by psychological need.

Take apart every submissive guy and I'll bet real money you find inadequate development, trauma or other damage.

 
Men, your thoughts?

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quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/3/2007 11:39:16 PM   
BondageTopJere


Posts: 170
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline 		B.S simply.  Read any romance novel, work of historical fiction, many a male biography, and you find they were submissive to thier women, although not to as great of a degree which is required for a full D/s dynamic to occur.  It might be an unciousness submission that their own taught morals and ideals requires, but it is submission.  "Knight in Shining Armor" type stories ring a bell?  Most of those mostly manly of men are submissive, in that they will defer to her control in most areas not relating to protecting her.  Hopeless Romantics? Ding, Ding, we have a winner.  Romance novels?  Replete with many a submissive men.

The disconnect and the reason I think that OP came from is by and large it is very difficult for a well-adjusted male to give up control in CERTAIN areas.  The all or nothing approach which many Doms and Dommes abide by will cause emotionally healthy male to shy away from, regardless of how deeply submissive he may be in other areas.

BFD whoever thought all submissive men are damaged.  If they are damaged in they way the OP's qoute stated, does that make their submission any less valid?

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/3/2007 11:48:20 PM   
OedipusRexIt


Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		Hmmmmm......  On the one hand, I feel men are by nature Dominant.  Socialization changes that nature for some, not necessarily in a harmful way. 

On the other hand, your premise would argue further that Dommes are "damaged".  I don't see that corollary, though...

Maybe we're all damaged.

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 12:11:03 AM   
Elorin


Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		My thoughts:
Survival of the fittest left high testosterone, aggressive men because they were the ones most likely to be able to protect women when they were pregnant and unable to protect themselves. While there is a possibility that submissive men would be "damaged" (i.e. unable to serve their purpose) in those situations in our species history, I know plenty of submissive men that are fully capable of being high testosterone, aggressive, deadly protectors.

Submissive men are men who chose to DECIDE who and what they want to be instead of letting history, evolution, and humanity's ancient history tell him who he is. Our culture no longer needs aggressive men to protect women when they are pregnant. It is no longer man against the elements. Now that civilization is developed to this point, man can choose his roles using intellect instead of raw instinct.

~Elorin

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 12:21:48 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm waiting to see if anyone is actually going to agree with this bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

Simple
Submissive men are damaged.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/4/2007 12:22:03 AM >

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 12:56:19 AM   
BondageTopJere


Posts: 170
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:


Submissive men are men who chose to DECIDE who and what they want to be instead of letting history, evolution, and humanity's ancient history tell him who he is. Our culture no longer needs aggressive men to protect women when they are pregnant. It is no longer man against the elements. Now that civilization is developed to this point, man can choose his roles using intellect instead of raw instinct.


I'm arguing this statement tto some degree.  Many people in BDSM are here because the standard vanilla way of having relationship simply does not work for them instinctually, and in fact I've talked to several people RL and online that have said the submission/dominance is something they have felt their entire lives, including their childhood years.  Very rarely do people make a purely intellectual choice about anything.  They almost always have to choose between what thier instinct tells them, and what their learned behaviors tell them.

In the case of submissive men, thier instinct is to submit,  their learned behavior tells them to take charge.  Much of what the OP about damage, trauma etc, is self-inflicted in many cases.  So yes, while civilization has developed to the point where submisive men now have a chance to follow their own inborn instinct,  they have to un-learn what would be reinforcing behaviors in non-submissive men and what is for them self-defeating behaviors.    Actually I think this may be very responsible for what I've seen a few threads from Dommes about "disappearing" subs, ones that seem geniune until they time comes until they have to actually submit, then they "poof".  They most likely DO want to submit, but have their own anxieties and inabilities to let go scare them away from, quite ironically enough, the one person most eomtionally equipped to help them, a Domme.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 12:58:47 AM   
Cuckme4Life


Posts: 168
Joined: 7/8/2005
From: MentallyDeranged,Tn.
Status: offline 		i choose to be submissive,, in a "natural" state of vanilla affairs and career choices, i am extremely competitive and aggressive. i have been of all things, a correctional officer,  and kept thousands upon thousands of inmates in check with as simple as  a hand gesture. many of these "Dom" leaders of prison gangs.  It is called being respected because you choose not to be a doormat to them.. Trust me, they know who to disrespect and when to do it.  I know many of a so-called "Dom" that no doubt would have been victimized by inmates within MINUTES of trying to pull  " I am the big bad DOM here, you obey me because I say so" routine on cold blooded rapists and murderers.  Seen it happen a few times. So i do not buy into this BS about damaged submissive men. However i do wonder about "Dom" men having to assert themselves to try proving maculinity.

It takes  a Womans touch to calm and subdue me,  a Dom male cannot do that. So  he can forget it with me, i can and i have had his lunch more times than i can count.  Survival mode, i am the aggressor to a fault.  my testosterone levels are not the factor, my loyalty and respect for WOMEN is the factor.

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 1:03:14 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		IMO, that statement is complete and utter nonsense.
 
Many male submissives are fiercely competitive, agressive
men in their careers and day to day life.  They have an inner
nature to submit to a dominant woman.  That does not make
them weak nor damaged.

_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 1:07:50 AM   
BondageTopJere


Posts: 170
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:


It takes  a Womans touch to calm and subdue me,  a Dom male cannot do that.


Something like this is what I meant in the first reply,  about works of historical fiction.  Even quite a few of the old Greek mythologies are based on this, although memory fail me to provide an example.  I've heard a very few vanilla guys, all very competitive and male in the full sense of the word, that have said near exactly the same thing with a lot more words ( had to save face in front of the guys ).


(in reply to Cuckme4Life)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 1:25:56 AM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageTopJere

quote:


It takes  a Womans touch to calm and subdue me,  a Dom male cannot do that.


Something like this is what I meant in the first reply,  about works of historical fiction.  Even quite a few of the old Greek mythologies are based on this, although memory fail me to provide an example.  I've heard a very few vanilla guys, all very competitive and male in the full sense of the word, that have said near exactly the same thing with a lot more words ( had to save face in front of the guys ).




So is every femsub is damaged and every male Dom a noble hero that doesn’t look a gift horse in mouth but decides to make her into a strong independent equal?
Wouldn’t every Gor guy want a panther girl then?
I don’t think male or female subs are in anyway retarded or damaged they like what they like. I think dominants that don’t respect their choice to submit are not worthy to master them.   
Submission is not always about weakness it’s about trust and love. Unless the motives behind their submission seems self destructive why not just be happy you found someone that wants you to be happy?

(in reply to BondageTopJere)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 1:32:13 AM   
Raphael


Posts: 263
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Male, female, dominant, submissive, sado, maso, vanilla, we're all damaged one way or another. So?

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 4:44:39 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		{fast reply}

mild mannered guys who are complacent by nature are not the only type of male that will submit

SO.....

anyone who believes this BS has obviously never experienced the surrender of a man who is a power driven, testosterone-filled, highly aggressive, take no prisoners type of guy.



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MstrssPassion


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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 5:13:48 AM   
phoenixinchains


Posts: 2534
Joined: 4/5/2007
From: i live here
Status: offline 		giggling,,, men are hard wired to pass on their DNA via sex. making a women happy is a good way to get laid. perhaps male submission is down-played in history for various cultural notions, just like homosexuality has been down-played. just my thoughts... phoenix

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 5:26:54 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am not a man but a woman who owns a male submissive. Submissive traits can run in either gender as it is NOT gender specific. So that would tell me that the OP thinks ALL submissives are damaged, female/male alike. I do not happen to agree with that line of thinking.

There are submissive males and females alike who are wonderful people and this is just another prejudice thats being spewed. There is not a shred of truth to it, its just something that simple minds choose to believe.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 7:57:47 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

Take apart every submissive guy and I'll bet real money you find inadequate development, trauma or other damage.


Ok, I'm not a man, but hey...

1. Sweeping generalities are never true 100% of the time.

2. I'd bet that if you took most ANYONE, you could find traces of all three in them. It doesn't have anything to do with gender or role.

Master Fire


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(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 7:58:35 AM   
Kinkypupper


Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline 		Depending on ones viewpoint we are "ALL" broke in one way or another.
That does not necessarily a bad thing, it keeps society from being identical ants in the ant hill.

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 9:21:18 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

Simple
Submissive men are damaged.

Domination comes naturally to the gender with the greater testosterone. Submissive men are a fundamental repudiation of what it means to be a man. Much like the insecure Dom, they're driven by psychological need.

Take apart every submissive guy and I'll bet real money you find inadequate development, trauma or other damage.

 
Men, your thoughts?


I'm not a man, but I will answer you.  I think it's complete posh. 

I guarantee if you take apart most doms you'll find some sort of damage, too.  It's easy to say that submissive men are one way or the other because they aren't fully developed.  But who is?  The last time I checked, everyone on this planet was still evolving.  I've met higher evolved submissive men and lower evolved dominant men.  Development, potential and intelligence has nothing to do with preference of top or bottom.

On the converse side of this, are dominant women damaged?  A really leads to B in this situation.  I don't agree with either, but the author of the above quote just dismissed a little under half the population of these boards.  It's definitely not tolerant, definitely biased, definitely chauvinistic, and definitely incorrect.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 5/4/2007 9:22:09 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 9:26:14 AM   
daniL


Posts: 46
Joined: 4/12/2007
Status: offline 		The problem with this theory is that it assumes that the basic form of human/animal society is patriarchy, which is not true. The majority of early societies were matriarchical, and in many societies, while the men may be 'dominant' on the surface, an argument can be made that the household is run by the woman [stereotype of Big Mama and the Big Black Matron, anybody?]. Also, not every species is patriarchical. In hyenas, for example, the female hyenas are dominant to the point where the males are terrified of them. Also, they've got so much friggin testosterone as to have a fake penis in front of their useful sexual organs. I could say more, but this is one of my fave debate topics-- I'm also currently taking Male Psych, so I resist the urge to pull out sources.

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 9:56:38 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

Simple
Submissive men are damaged.

Domination comes naturally to the gender with the greater testosterone. Submissive men are a fundamental repudiation of what it means to be a man. Much like the insecure Dom, they're driven by psychological need.

Take apart every submissive guy and I'll bet real money you find inadequate development, trauma or other damage.

 
Men, your thoughts?


This proposes that there is a single path or at least well defined boundaries, within which a male should develop. Without such a basis to judge individuals by, it is impossible to diagnose inadequate development or damage, and I dont believe any such path or boundaries have ever been sufficiently defined by psychology/ sociology or indeed with any consistency. It would therefore be equally valid and invalid to propose that males displaying dominating behaviour were aberrant.

All that aside though, the "knight in shining armour" is not such an icon for no reason; a manly man, strong, aggressive, dominating, who yet turns all his power over to the disposal of the lady he adores.

Neither is this some accident of social history in my opinion, but rather a real life ritual enactment of the act of procreation itself, where he gives all that he is to his lady and thereby becomes hers, subsumed within her very being and dedicated inexorably to her. What could be more natural?

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 5/4/2007 9:59:15 AM >

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Simple. Submissive men are damaged. - 5/4/2007 9:59:17 AM   
jeffman1234


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe we're all damaged


Words of wisdom.

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