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submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 6:23:34 AM   
Aristogeiton


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/29/2007
Status: offline 		I have two minds about this.  On the one hand, I don't feel that there's any shame to acting out the role that nature, or early experiences, or psychology, has given to me.  There is no denying that at the feet of a dominant is where I feel most at home, where I belong.  But if I do feel that that's where I belong, what does that say about my own self-esteem?  If dom and sub are equal in dignity, if not in stature within the relationship, why is the sub the human toilet?  Is the only way to enjoy BDSM to acknowledge my own lack of self-respect and revel in it?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 6:28:31 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		While I think that there is no shortage of folks in this lifestyle who have issues with low self esteem, it is by no means a requirement. I certainly enjoy and revel in my submissiveness and I am a very self confident person with wonderful self esteem. Why would you think that you have to lack self respect in order to be happy and fulfilled here?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 6:34:26 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I guess some have issues with self esteem, whether they be Dom/ sub or whatever. I do not have this problem. I don't ever feel like I have given up my self respect being who I am. I am proud to be who I am as a person.  

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 6:41:33 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		my guess is that somewhere in what you give it is not being accepted or acknowledged. 
something must not feel right to you if your questioning. 

just my 2 cents... 


_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:00:20 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

There is no denying that at the feet of a dominant is where I feel most at home, where I belong.  But if I do feel that that's where I belong, what does that say about my own self-esteem?
Nothing, until you take it in conjunction with this statement/question:
quote:

If dom and sub are equal in dignity, if not in stature within the relationship, why is the sub the human toilet? 
If you can only distinguish your dominance to a sub you consider a "human toilet" it speaks to you not having the confidence to be dominant independent of comparison to someone else.

Self esteem is not a comparative trait. It comes from within. Dominant or submissive traits aren't a factor of self esteem. Having literally used a "human toilet", on many occasions throughout the years, my self esteem or theirs did not change.

You will never advance the confidence in your nature by the weakness perceived in another. You will never advance your self esteem by denigrating another. The personal strength of a submissive is no less than that of a dominant. It can be argued that because of the stigma society places on some of the activities, dress, and behaviors required by the submissive, in many ways a sub's self esteem and confidence must be stronger.

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
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RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:05:50 AM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aristogeiton

why is the sub the human toilet? 


Its just their kink ! 

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:08:13 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
personal strength of a submissive is no less than that of a dominant. It can be argued that because of the stigma society places on some of the activities, dress, and behaviors required by the submissive, in many ways a sub's self esteem and confidence must be stronger.
Absolutely!  i was just going to say that i have never had higher self-esteem, more confidence, and felt more valued than i have since becoming Master's slave.  i have no lack of self-respect and, after having been in this relationship, actually have more respect for myself and who and what i am.  It is sad to see that, whether in this lifestyle or a vanilla one, so many lack these qualities.  By no means, however, does being a sub/slave have to go hand-in-hand with lack of such  .......... slave luci 


_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:39:21 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

i have never had higher self-esteem, more confidence, and felt more valued than i have since becoming Master's slave.  



I have had the um, opportunity, to have partners over the years with self-esteem issues.  My goal has always been to relieve that as much as possible.  To make 'her' see herself differently, with more pride.  I believe that is one of my responsibilities as a dominant.  If one sees herself differently, others start to pick up on that.

So it falls upon the 'style' of the dom(me)/Mistress/Master to decide how to approach this subject.  It's certainly possible to go the other way.  If a sub/slave has self-esteem issues, then they are more susceptible to whatever is desired to happen.  It wouldn't 'matter' to them because it doesn't take away from how low they feel anyway.

But what's the value of that?

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:47:38 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aristogeiton

I have two minds about this.  On the one hand, I don't feel that there's any shame to acting out the role that nature, or early experiences, or psychology, has given to me.  There is no denying that at the feet of a dominant is where I feel most at home, where I belong.  But if I do feel that that's where I belong, what does that say about my own self-esteem?  If dom and sub are equal in dignity, if not in stature within the relationship, why is the sub the human toilet?  Is the only way to enjoy BDSM to acknowledge my own lack of self-respect and revel in it?



Your self esteem is determined by so many things going on in your life, not just on how you identify as a submissive.  Seems you understand that you need that in your life, as you say it's "where I feel most at home, where I belong" (to use your words) yet another part of you is at odds with perhaps a concept you have about what it must mean to be a submissive - and you used the example of being a human toilet.  i think you can "revel in your submission" without having to give up your self esteem.  Perhaps there is a more accurate word you could replace self esteem with that would better define whats on your mind?  Just a thought.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:51:36 AM   
MasterGremlin


Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Before I discovered the "lifestyle", I had very low self esteem.  I was always trying to be what someone else thought or needed or wanted me to be.  When I finally found Master and the lifestyle, I was finally able to accept myself for who I am and there is great power in that.  Even more important was that I found someone who accepted me for who I am.

As for the human toilet thing, that is just a fetish/kink and not all D/s people are into that. 

Cordially,
minxy

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:57:20 AM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Dominants come in many packages..some from a negative connotation, some from a positive one.Some submissives want the negative,crave it even..whilst others, want that supportive "build you up" Dominant.I am not sure it comes down to simply self esteem issues on the submissives part.I think it has many factors. Hence why it is so important to choose wisely your partner.I am a great believer of "balance"..so when you choose that other half, you take into consideration many issues..ie: emotional needs and wants,kink,lifestyles,goals on both parts,ad infinitum...this is where you MUST know yourself well, and know your desires, in order to choose wisely...Tempting

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 7:57:49 AM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline 		I feel most comfortable at Master's feet, That is where i feel most naturel and most at home. But in my mind that doesn't mean I lack self esteem .If anything  it means i am strong and comfortable enought with myself to be able to be what and who i need to be.

_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"



(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 9:21:03 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I laughed last night at a movie when a guy called another guy a pussy for wearing a skirt.

I dunno, I have to think it took a lot more guts to wear a skirt proudly than the other guy could ever have.  Yet, he was the one calling the guy in the skirt a pussy.

I am into humiliation in part BECAUSE I'm fairly confident, even arrogant, in life.  I LOVE being put down a notch, I LOVE knowing someone knows me so well inside that they can just dig in whenever they want.

Which is why consent is so important- consent says "I take responsibility for this choice, this is who I am and I choose to revel in it."

There's absolutely nothing defacing for that- even if you are scrubbing floors all day.



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LaMspeach)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 9:54:35 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know about being a human toilet, but what if it just feels good?  Why does everyone have to analyze everything to death?  Just enjoy it, for crying out loud.

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 10:31:19 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Nothing to do with overanalyzing. For some people being treated like that is their kink, and they like it. For those who do not have that kink, it is very harmful to them.

To the OP, there is no conflict between being submissive without having your self-esteem harmed. Like mstrjx, I believe part of my role as Master is to build my slave up, not break her down. To help her on the road to buring all the hurts of the past that smashed her self worth, and creating a new environment where her sense of worth is uplifted.

In the end, no one can change your self-esteem except yourself; that's why it's called self esteem. Still, a Master can play a powerful role in helping that process along.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to bandit25)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 10:58:26 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		In its positive manifestation, submission or surrender takes great strength. It is an affirmative choice to share the love that is already in your heart, and release your ego identification that another is the source of your love. "I am wonderful, full of light and love, and I unconditionally share that with one whom I freely give the authority to exercise control." The choice to follow, and follow your heart, requires great self-esteem. You know what you prefer, and you pursue it.

In its negative manifestation, submission or surrender can be a mechanism of psychological bargaining. Giving to get is really taking, which is not submitting or surrendering at all. "I am empty and devoid of love, so I am going to sacrifice something in order to get another to fill my heart with love, because I can't see that my heart is already the source of all the love I ever experience." The bargaining "sub" is unconsciously manipulating and exerting subtle control to take the energy of their partner. Co-dependence is an even more extreme manifestation of this.

Be healthy in the esteem of your SELF, by first owning the love and fulfillment that has always existed in the only place you have ever felt it -- your own heart.

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 11:11:53 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx
I have had the um, opportunity, to have partners over the years with self-esteem issues.  My goal has always been to relieve that as much as possible.  To make 'her' see herself differently, with more pride.  I believe that is one of my responsibilities as a dominant.  If one sees herself differently, others start to pick up on that.


Yeah, that is the way I see a Dom working, too. Help her get past the humiliating things she does, compartmentalize it all and feel pride in the relationship and herself. Because she does sexual, BDSM and D/s acts, she doesn't need to have low self-esteem. You are in things together.


_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 2:08:57 PM   
switchguy4u


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline 		Having subbed in 90% of my play, I would say there’s two types of people who sub.

1)Those that are in power in their day to day life and just want to be able to be treated like crap sometimes

2)Those with very low self worth that feel they deserve to be treated like this


I know it generalizing, and maybe you would have shades of grey here and there. But still, I would say that assessment is fairly accurate.

< Message edited by switchguy4u -- 5/5/2007 2:09:19 PM >

(in reply to Aristogeiton)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 2:18:55 PM   
MadameButterfly


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I do not believe for a moment that being submissive has anything to do with low self esteem. In fact I think it is quite the opposite... it takes are great deal of confidence of self to submit to Another's will. It is a matter of understanding ourselves; when one understands themselves that we find our path or journey in life.

Both Tops and bottoms are faced with the choices in life to set aside their insecurities and live their lives in a manner by which we can accept ourselves as well be happy with who we are as individuals.

Self esteem issues are a unilateral issue in our lifestyle. It comes down to believing in ourselves... knowing our limitations as well accepting who and what we are.

Nothing can change how we feel about ourselves but the person looking back at you in the mirror.


MadameButterfly




 

< Message edited by MadameButterfly -- 5/5/2007 2:20:41 PM >

(in reply to switchguy4u)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: submission and self-esteem - 5/5/2007 2:29:30 PM   
minnetar


Posts: 1272
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline 		SirDominic and mstrjx how very beautifully written!!

minnetar

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 20
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