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No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 6:15:04 AM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		SireKane  wrote

"I recently after having many sessions with a Master who I thought was great, finally submitted myself completly and according to him was amazing and the most well behave sub he had ever served him. After this, I knew that I wanted to serve him always but how for some reason he is ignoring me. He is on collarme everyday but when I send him a message, he reads it and never replies. What did I do wrong? "

I don't know you, and I don't know the particulars of your relationship, but I am familiar with your situation.  I'm going to share with you my personal insight which is based upon experiences shared with by submissive females in this lifestyle. What is happening to you is a very common occurrence in this lifestyle?  In my opinion, based on a survey a did amongst submissive females for a workshop I was developing. Most men in this lifestyle are tops at best. Vanilla guys, with a twist of kink. Dominance, especially the type a submissive seeks, is not a part of their persona. Their dominance is a selected or preferred role they choose to play in the bdsm community or lifestyle.  They can choose not to play the dominant role at a drop of a hat.  The problem occurs when a top presents himself to a submissive as a dominant, or master, and enters into a relationship with a submissive under this guise. Within the boundaries of the bedroom, a top can easily perform the dominant role. Dominance outside the bedroom, in the context of a D/s relationship is a whole other dynamic.  Maintaining D/s relationship is extra hard work for a top, it's like a second job for him. His dominance is not part of his personality, and is usually sexually motivated. His dominance will end at the end of your scene.  When a top, posing as a dominant, tires of the role, and the submissive has not given him grounds to release her, it is common for him to simply abandon the relationship leaving the submissive bewildered. He's not going to tell you that he got tired of being dominant.  He'll repeat the same scenario over an over again. It's unfair, unfortunate, and far too common. Submissive females need to do better homework on the dominants they are interested in. Men need to understand that there is no rank or hierarchy amongst men, whether you are a top, dom, or master , there are no brownie points. Just be honorable, without honesty there can be no consent.

notlooking2  wrote

Very well said, you definitely have hit the nail right on the head.  I am always suspicious in someone who wants to hurry things along.  I like to take my time and get to know someone.  Only thru continues communication is one able to tell if someone is truly a Master or a Vanilla interested in a little kink.  Some have perfected the art in disguising their true intent.  However, if a submissive is patient and keeps her ears and eyes wide open, as well as not make the mistake on explaining the red flags away, a player can only play a role for so long.  So watch for those tell tale signs.

I wrote

This process goes both ways, unfortunately. 
I have found, in addition to what SireKane wrote, that many (s and D types) do not have a clear cut goal of expectations and thus wonder into a "relationship" with assumptions, thinking they have communicates well their intentions and expectations.  Communications is not one way; it involves clarification and resending the message so that both parties comprehend the message.
I have also discovered that for just a session between s and D, many things are said intending to make another decision after that session.
All of us know that the chemistry between an s and D involves not only the mental and emotional chemistry, but also the physical chemistry. 

I have noticed something that disturbs me on these forums ~~ the initial act of sexual submission is seen as the way a submissive intends to give herself to only that D.  That is BS. Just look at my thread   http://www.collarchat.com/m_983333/tm.htm     to realize this mind frame.
Take this scenario ~~ An s and D click on line, phone (connecting mentally and emotionally) and in an initial meeting face to face.  They enter into sexual submission and the chemistry is perceived not compatible by one or the other.  Newbie subs are vulnerable to not seeing the nonchemistry, experienced subs usually can.
The D backs out and just doesn’t communicate it to the s cause he ain't got balls or just cant for someone reason, usually because the reason might be “I don’t want to hurt her.”  Well hurt someone with the truth instead of hurting them worse with ignoring them.
When the chemistry is right mentally, emotionally and physically, then that is when the relationship moves forward in some direction...either as top and bottom, PT D/s, or something significant and planned.

To give the impression that submission mentally and emotionally is the only submission that occurs before both parties participate in sexual submission and thus cement the D and s is to mislead newbie’s and those who have still not understood what a D/s relationship is or what topping or bottoming is all about.
And to assume that the initial sexual/physical submission is compatible and thus a D and s cement a bond from then on is BS.

And to prove my point ..... how many of you D types (male and female)have gotten into the heads of s types and had a sexual submission from them and knew that it wasn’t   going to be a long relationship cause the s type just wasn’t "with you" in their sexual submission????  

To the D’s ~~
Tell us how YOU handled that ?
Did you tell the s?
What did you say?
How did you tell the s?
What was her reaction?
Or did the s tell you?
How did she tell you?
Was there a mutual agreement?Or did one of you need to convince the other? 

Edited to add
I only hope I explained this well.

< Message edited by shyinini -- 5/6/2007 6:16:31 AM >

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A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 7:28:18 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I greatly hesitate to deal with this because people who love their little labels annoy me but when I fuck over someone because I am horny, I am not fucking over a child but someone who is supposed to be a fully functional adult. 

Most bdsm related relationships fall apart because most people suck at having mature relationships.  Women sleep with men hoping for love, Men fuck women because they need to feed their ego.  Few people have the ability and strength it takes to be really honest with their partner.  It isn't easy to say "I can't see you today because I am trying to give my partner the chance to pull his head out of his ass so I can't talk to you tonight"   Problem is most people don't want to hear they are plan B and while they will ignore every warning sign imaginable to wrap themselves around the fantasy that "he will change for me."  However, if he tells her that "I enjoy you but only as a side partner" she will in many cases reject him.  Honesty isn't as welcome as many think it is although for me, it is the difference between a sleepless night and one where I wake up feeling good.

Wrap your head around this one.  I get lots of offers by women to serve me that I know I have no interest in having a relationship with.  However, I have needs and enjoy being serviced. So if I am PERFECTLY clear that this isn't going anywhere but I can simply SENSE that she is hoping for something different, that she dreams her mouth or cunt will be sweet enough to lure me into changing, what is the honorable thing for me to do?  There is a woman on  here, a delicious woman who I have have talked to and exchanged racy pics with who I felt was going to be interested in more than I might want to give.  I pushed her away in that case because I was afraid she might not yet be able to handle it.  So, am I an asshole when I don't push them away or when I do?

Perhaps rather than getting our hands dirty besmirching others, we should simply look inward and just look at and improve our OWN roles in the chronic heartbreak we see in the vanilla and in our world.


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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 7:52:40 AM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		If  and when you know someone is investing more into the relationship, and is hoping to get more out of the relationship, than you are, if and when that happens you sit down face to face with that woman and tell her you're just not 'that into her', to give her the option to decide whether to remain or to go, then you can possibly justify continuing to use her for your own purposes.

The honorable thing to do would be to end the relationship, but very few men will do that, they'll just continue to use, and use, and use, until the poor woman's heartache finally drives her away from the toxic situation.

Yours was an interesting post, SimplyMichael, it gave me some male perspective and insight into my previous relationship - as long as I left my prior sub an open door to return to play, he took the opportunity.  I wanted a much more personally fulfilling relationship, kept hoping for more, and kept getting disappointed.

It took a long time for me to finally accept that fact on an emotional level, because I always knew it on an intellectual level.

Like you, he was 'honest up front' that his interaction with me would be limited in scope; and he also kept telling me that he was 'being selfish' because he so enjoyed being with me, blah blah blah blah. 

For all of that 'honesty', he was still just a user.

Maybe not a sexual predator, but certainly a user.

Being the 'fully functional' adult that I am, it simply came down to when the disappointment in our relationship outweighed the positive: it was time for me to go.  He was an exceptional submissive, in many ways.  Difficult to find, that; sometimes even more difficult to let go of.  I certainly have My needs, too, and the need for service is only one of them.  We both knew the relationship would never progress beyond a certain point, so I suppose it could be said that on a certian level, we used one another. 

Still, the question remains:  since he knew that he was only using me, (topping from the bottom), and since he effectively TOLD ME so, (although he did so in much more prosaic terms than that), did that make it ethically 'right' or acceptable for him to do so?

The answer is: No.

He was just a user, would always be just a user, had no potential to be anything but a user, an egg sucking dog who could never be, would never be broken of the habit of sucking cracked eggs because he was addicted to it.

In the end, his habit of using women to meet his needs was, and is as toxic to HIM and to his own development as a human being, as it is to his victims, whether they participate willingly, openly, honestly, or not.

Fortunately for me, I did look inward, and when the time came, I moved on to a much more fulfilling relationship.  Not every woman can do that.

TexasMaam

< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 5/6/2007 8:10:18 AM >

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 7:57:19 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Wrap your head around this one.  I get lots of offers by women to serve me that I know I have no interest in having a relationship with.  However, I have needs and enjoy being serviced. So if I am PERFECTLY clear that this isn't going anywhere but I can simply SENSE that she is hoping for something different, that she dreams her mouth or cunt will be sweet enough to lure me into changing, what is the honorable thing for me to do?  There is a woman on  here, a delicious woman who I have have talked to and exchanged racy pics with who I felt was going to be interested in more than I might want to give.  I pushed her away in that case because I was afraid she might not yet be able to handle it.  So, am I an asshole when I don't push them away or when I do?


Well I think that as long as you are, as you said, being honest and perfectly clear, you have then assumed the responsibility for your end. We can't take responsibility for their "hopes" of more. It's not just a guy thing, I think that both men and women have a tendency to think that if they can just get close enough and you can see how wonderful they are that you are going to forget everything that you said in that "being honest and perfectly clear" talk. I know that I have had the same issues....men who you are very upfront with about "what it is" who became transfixed on the "what it could be". They become cling ons....following you through life like a little puppy just hoping you're going to eventually see how cute they are and pick them up and keep them. They are harder to shake off than fleas. When the time comes to get firm and push them away, while I try to be as decent as I can about it, I don't feel guilty for doing so. If that makes me a bitch, well so be it, but at least I'm an honest bitch who won't find herself caught up in something that I don't want to be for the sole sake of sparing someone's feelings. 

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 8:24:12 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		I am in complete agreement with mistoferin about Michael's post. As long as you are honest and up front about what will and what will not happen in a relationship, any relationship, you have fulfilled your responsibility. If the other person decides to go along anyway, for whatever reason, that is their choice. We are all adults here (well, mostly), and need to accept the responsibility for our actions.

I have a friend who is very handsome, and a decent man. He has no interest in a long term relationship, just wants to play the field. He is up front about it with every woman he meets. Many choose to have a relationship with him anyway, then down the road get angry when he won't commit. But he never lied or led them on, they knew where he was coming from from the very beginning.

Is he being unfair? I don't see how.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 8:34:21 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

And to prove my point ..... how many of you D types (male and female)have gotten into the heads of s types and had a sexual submission from them and knew that it wasn’t going to be a long relationship cause the s type just wasn’t "with you" in their sexual submission????

To the D’s ~~
Tell us how YOU handled that ?
Did you tell the s?
What did you say?
How did you tell the s?
What was her reaction?
Or did the s tell you?
How did she tell you?
Was there a mutual agreement?Or did one of you need to convince the other?
 

Why does the question have to just center around sexual submission? Why aren't other types of submission valid to this line of questioning? If someone give something of themselves to another, it's just as intimate and vulnerable of a situation if it's sexual or non-sexual. Service is service. Submission is submission.

That's why I like to go slow, figure out what the lay of the land is and figure out what energy is going to flow between someone and I before I get to that level, whether it be sexual or not.

Mistakes will be made. This all isn't a black and white continuum that we can predefine everything. Sometimes people will hit places that the other can't go with. It's at those times that honest comes into play. Communicating where you are at becomes important.



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http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 8:36:03 AM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		Very well said, Michael. And very glad that you spelled out the honesty issue clearly and simply. Too often we have this fantasy that we are somehow "better," or "more successful" at honest communication than our vanilla counterparts. But I've found `tis ain't necessarily so...

MNN

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 8:40:22 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

They become cling ons....following you through life like a little puppy just hoping you're going to eventually see how cute they are and pick them up and keep them.


I'm sorry, but now I've got this vision of Klingons (ala Star Trek) following around women with puppy dog looks. *chuckle*


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http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 10:03:48 AM   
Eruditegirl


Posts: 53
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I pushed her away in that case because I was afraid she might not yet be able to handle it.  So, am I an asshole when I don't push them away or when I do?


If this woman was immature....unable to make healthy decisions on her own...or living in a fantasy world...then no you are not an asshole....but compassionate...mature and decent
BUT...if this was a mature woman who was quite capable of making rational decisions for herself...able to take responsibilty for her own actions...then no still not an asshole...but  arrogant, assuming with a hint of condescending...

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 10:47:51 AM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL

quote:

And to prove my point ..... how many of you D types (male and female)have gotten into the heads of s types and had a sexual submission from them and knew that it wasn’t going to be a long relationship cause the s type just wasn’t "with you" in their sexual submission????

To the D’s ~~
Tell us how YOU handled that ?
Did you tell the s?
What did you say?
How did you tell the s?
What was her reaction?
Or did the s tell you?
How did she tell you?
Was there a mutual agreement?Or did one of you need to convince the other?
 

Why does the question have to just center around sexual submission? Why aren't other types of submission valid to this line of questioning? If someone give something of themselves to another, it's just as intimate and vulnerable of a situation if it's sexual or non-sexual. Service is service. Submission is submission.

That's why I like to go slow, figure out what the lay of the land is and figure out what energy is going to flow between someone and I before I get to that level, whether it be sexual or not.

Mistakes will be made. This all isn't a black and white continuum that we can predefine everything. Sometimes people will hit places that the other can't go with. It's at those times that honest comes into play. Communicating where you are at becomes important.




I wrote the way I did based on other current threads and having some idea of where members are coming from after 4 years here in various screennames.

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to ExtremeOwnerIL)
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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 3:15:13 PM   
MissOchistic


Posts: 315
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline 		The thing about the lifestyle is, there is just as much confusion, heartbreak, and drama in relationships here as there is in vanilla land.

The sex is just a hell of a lot better.


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is more than two, but less than three."

"Submission is a potlatch."

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 4:38:45 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Miss- I've known plenty of kinky people who WISH that were true!

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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 4:57:22 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		And this is why I love reading your posts Michael.

Right on the money.

Its like the whole argument that "D/S relationships have a deeper level of trust and commitment than vanilla relationships."

Siure, we can theorize that the activities and things that we do require and build a deeper level of trust and commitment. It looks really good on paper and on all the websites preaching romantized ideals.

The reality though is that the trust, honesty and commitment in a relationship is determined by the amount of energy each partner invests into these things.

Just because I label myslef as a dominant doesnt change the fact that I am still capable of lieing and cheating.

Just because I enter into a D/S or BDSM relationship doesnt automatically mean I have a deeper level of trust with my partner.

All these things are solely based on the merits of the individuals.

If vanilla couples invested as much energy into trust, honesty and commitment as we CLAIM to do in our relationships, they would have a relationship that is just as deeply filled with trust, honesty and commited as we theorize.

Just like our relationships will just as easily fall apart as a vanilla relationship in abscence of the investment of these things.



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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 5:31:18 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		I want to thank all of you who over the last 3 or 4 threads, esp this one....  I have truly learned something about myself.  Even though I could say I knew it and learned before, I understand at a deeper level a bit about myself...its always hard to admit you were a fool and lacked maturity in some specific situation....
but if I had not finalizied what I needed to understand, it might not have cemented waht I know to be the truth.  In a few days I will put it into my own words and lay it upon the canvas of my private journal.  I am only responsible for myself, not the other half.  Then I will share it with the One who wants me.  Its funny, I have been VERY concerned about the tat on my right shoulder, one that reperensents waht I thot I had for so long....  he told me the other day...he will turn a negative into a positive...altho he can see the tat, it is behind ME and thus it is behind him.
"What is it that the Master teaches the initated one?  he shows the initiated one the truth of her own being."  ~~ H. I. Khan 

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 7:02:33 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hello shyinini. Just need honesty? Maybe I'm getting old or something but I don't find this true anymore...

One may 'want' other's to be honest to one's own self as it is most convenient, easier, simpler. What one really needs is to 'be' honest, in a constant state of honesty.

-Needs have to be adressed, if not you die (body, spirit-mind-soul).
-Desires will at times fuck you up. I do not desire honesty anymore, I just 'need' to 'be'  honest .

In my opinion a lot of people should have a serious discussion with their own genitals and ask them who is the boss in their lives and why the hell their thingies should be the boss of other peoples lives as well. Takes years shyinini, it takes years. RL.


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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 7:13:28 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

Hello shyinini. Just need honesty? Maybe I'm getting old or something but I don't find this true anymore...

One may 'want' other's to be honest to one's own self as it is most convenient, easier, simpler. What one really needs is to 'be' honest, in a constant state of honesty.  This goes to integrity, wouldnt you say?

-Needs have to be adressed, if not you die (body, spirit-mind-soul).
-Desires will at times fuck you up. I do not desire honesty anymore, I just 'need' to 'be'  honest .
Interesting enough....  Needs change.  With years, with relationships, with experience in life's journey, etc
Desires always fuck me up esp when influenced by the outside, or the "boss beneath."

You are correct...if I demand honesty of myself, no matter how hard it is, I will always remain true to myself.
 
But how am I to "judge" if another is being honest with me?
This is where I seem to fail and see only waht I desire or need to see.  Make sense?  

In my opinion a lot of people should have a serious discussion with their own genitals and ask them who is the boss in their lives and why the hell their thingies should be the boss of other peoples lives as well.
*sigh...  so well said.  If people in a rleationship cannot relate without sexual activities or influence ... it is NOT much of a relationship is it?    Why is it that the boss who is beneath always over powers the boss above?
Takes years shyinini, it takes years. RL.




Thank you RL

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 7:26:22 PM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I wrote the way I did based on other current threads and having some idea of where members are coming from after 4 years here in various screennames.


Yes. But I'm still curious about the answer in a more broad sense - why is it that members (4  years or otherwise) are assumed to be coming at it from just a sexual perspective?




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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 8:19:21 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline 		But how am I to "judge" if another is being honest with me?
When you are in a constant state of honesty (as much as any human can be) with time you become the reference to what is honest or not on the outside. Your instinct will take over and you just will naturally spot phonies a mile away and take corrective action before they can even finish their one liners. All this is a natural process. Just takes a littlle self discipline to gain a new 'habit' wich will replace the old one.

This is where I seem to fail and see only waht I desire or need to see.  Make sense? 
You make perfect sense. Not being honest does not mean being bad, it means not wanting to see, hear, feel and say . You desire what is not there but by imagination. Predators like to feed this to their 'advantage'. You are not catering to your pros and cons system of defense because maybe you think it is inhibitive? Not anyone's fault really just bad habits in human relations that get you nowhere waisting time and energy that could be used more positively, right?


*sigh...  so well said.  If people in a rleationship cannot relate without sexual activities or influence ... it is NOT much of a relationship is it?    Why is it that the boss who is beneath always over powers the boss above?
We are sexual, sensual and sentient. Boss? He/she is just the half of it, half the power. You decide to transfer-surrender-exchange or not your half. Why can you be overpowered? I really do not see any power issues, just control and manipulation. It is nothing, don't worry about it.

Takes years shyinini, it takes years. RL.

Thank you RL

You are very welcomed. Please stay sweet, the world 'needs' your sweetness...I wish you a calm heart. RL.


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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/6/2007 8:59:56 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL

quote:

I wrote the way I did based on other current threads and having some idea of where members are coming from after 4 years here in various screennames.


-Yes. But I'm still curious about the answer in a more broad sense - why is it that members (4  years or otherwise) are assumed to be coming at it from just a sexual perspective?-ExtremeOwner


Hello ExtremeOwner. I tend to think it is because it is kind of expected in this culture to look at kink first and the rest later because of the highly charged symbolism. It conveys a lot. But I totally agree with you about the broad sense. You never get the whole context wich is what is the most interesting. There has to be something else perspective wise...well I hope so. Sometimes people find it difficult talking directly about 'values' fearing some serious guilt complex to ensue, who knows? We need more humor, I think. RL.




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RE: No fancy catchy title... just need some honesty - 5/7/2007 6:02:17 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Hello ExtremeOwner. I tend to think it is because it is kind of expected in this culture to look at kink first and the rest later because of the highly charged symbolism.


Which is interesting because if I look at the "symbolisms" used - let's take the words for example - it is very much NOT a sexual reference but a status of property or owner, or a reference to power.


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Some of my thoughts on Ownership:

http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

(in reply to robertolapiedra)
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