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Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why is ... - 2/2/2004 10:45:43 PM   
MistressDREAD


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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Contracts for servitude the good, the bad,
And why is it so different between Masters n Mistresses?
Mono and Poly? Short Term or Long Term?
Your Thoughts and a sample of what kind of contract
You use if any and why....I have no desire to hear
from anyone other then Masters and Mistresses
on this thread

< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 5/19/2004 10:54:58 PM >
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/3/2004 8:27:19 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
HAhahaha........ I knew this would be a touchie
subject not many would have the nerve to touch!!
Ill give it a week befor I give My Opinions~~

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/3/2004 9:11:25 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		I'll bite Dread. Since there is nothing legally binding in a contract, I see them as useless in that standing. However, to many they are a symbolic thing, so it's just another kink. And to each his own if it's consensual.

BTW, even though I don't believe in contracts persay, I believe that a BDSM relation, just like a 'nilla one, only works with open communication. And even though contracts might sound nice, life happens and any and everything changes at times...

Sandy

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/3/2004 9:12:31 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		oh yea, one more thing (though off the subject). Your colors are very hard on the eyes, and that pink is probably the worst one so far,,, just an opinion though :)

Sandy

(in reply to EStrict)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/4/2004 12:29:44 PM   
msangel4u


Posts: 14
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		I have to agree that contracts arent truly binding. However if it serves the Mistress to feel more in control then so be it. Some slaves desire the thought of having signed away their rights.

Everyone has the right to pursue their own kinks. However in the domain of personal property given up or taking over finances you still would never have aleg to stand on.

Personally I can hold what is mine without the neccesity of an otherwise invalid piece of paper.

~^A^~

(in reply to EStrict)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/5/2004 10:22:42 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		LOOKS AT MY POSTS AND
WONDERS WHAT SANDY IS DRINKIN CAUSE
THERE IS NO PINK POSTS BY ME HERE IN
THIS TREAD!! HAHAHAHAHA

(in reply to msangel4u)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/5/2004 10:33:36 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Ahhhh Angel You hit on a part of the subject I was going to address when I do and thats the symbolic use for the slaves feeling of totally giving up their being and posessions with this physical actions of contract and kolars and becomming posession of another. Whats any different if We have a piece of paper stating We give up Our freedom as a single person in society and Marry or file a contract thats been signed for one to sign away them selfs with the same commitment even if society and the laws that govern it have not * caught up to Our Lifestyles ways and acceptances. (there is a current contract thats been upheld in the lower courts and all tho between two bi Males in BDSM the court case is now waiting to be addressed at the supreme leval. This case and contract has held up in court to this point. So not wanting to say to much more then this till the end of My self inposed week Ill continue to wait to give My total opinion. Here Sandy this is for You so You can see Pink now * wink)

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/5/2004 10:32:19 PM   
phunster


Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		so true

(in reply to EStrict)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/6/2004 8:35:24 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Hey all...am new to the site...great stuff :)

Contracts do have their place, especially for those submissives that feel signing over their 'rights' (as they see them) is more than symbolic and adds to the level of submission they want to obtain.

Personally I use contracts primarily for 'time' and nothing else. Giving myself and the slave a framework from which to work through our interactions...a blueprint if you wish for what is expected of them and what they should expect from me.

Would like to write more but have a birthday I need to attend...look forward to more discussion.

Jasmyn

www.nzmistress.com

(in reply to phunster)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 2/28/2004 7:29:40 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		OK, I'm going to go Nietzsche here.

I am Superman (to me). So are you (to you). The only thing above me as a Superman is another Superman, namely me. My word is the word of the only Superman I recognize. Having as much in black and white as possible is good not only to clarify communication (although that is enough to make them good in a vanilla setting too), but also to hold me to my word.

Oh, before it starts, Nietzsche was as much about Nazi-ism as Islam is about terrorism, or Stalin was about Marxism.

Oh, before it starts Ubermensch is not a guy in comic books that flies around in his underwear.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 3/4/2004 8:33:46 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		HAHAHAHAH!!
now why did You have to give
Me that kind of vision iwillserveu

quote:

(Oh, before it starts Ubermensch
is not a guy in comic books that
flies around in his underwear)

green , glowing,underwear flying around
in My head! jezzzzzzzz.........

gawdddd is it Me or does this
site have an abundance of theoligists!
Is that spelled right? hmm? I DONT CARE!
<~~OVERMAN DEMIGODDESS!
My opinion on the subject forthcomming..
gotta give it just a little more time befor
I blow it for every one! ~giggles~`

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 3/9/2004 10:49:23 AM   
seattleminx


Posts: 46
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		I absolutely agree with you iwillserveu. For me, the contract is not meant to lend legitmacy to whatever agreement I have with my Domme and vice versa... but rather to provide both of us a word of honor...stating "I will provide such and such for you, and if I fail to live up to that then you can punish and discipline as you see fit"

Essentially it's an oath that I take to my partner, one that she can call me on.

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 3/14/2004 8:05:41 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks seattleminx,

Sometimes I wonder if I am alone in seeing it that way.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to seattleminx)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 3/14/2004 4:25:24 PM   
PitBull


Posts: 10
Joined: 2/22/2004
Status: offline 		Hey Folks;
Let me throw this out out and how this resonates with the group.

Everyone has been speaking that the contract is not legally binding. Agreed. But there are things that can be done which *are* legally binding that would leave the sub/slave in a somewhat "interesting" position legally. And they are a contract.

The one that jumps to mind is power of attorney.

Thoughts??

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 3/14/2004 5:28:10 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not a lawyer, but I'd love to see a court rule that there was no coercion in that power of attorney contract.

If you did not sign she would tie you up and set you on fire?

No, that is not a punishment.

So, she'd punish you.

No, not for that.

Oh, she would punish you for something else. I see. No further questions, your honor.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to PitBull)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 3/14/2004 7:51:31 PM   
dkitty


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/6/2004
From: Seattle, WA USA
Status: offline 		"No, that is not a punishment." - LOL!

I just wrote an article about contracts... well... it seems like I just wrote it. It was actually done in December. Not that I'm a bloody expert, but I've a bit of experience. The article has a few links to examples if you're interested. It's here.

Mostly I've used contracts as both a way to bind myself to a Domme (or sub, depending) and for communication purposes. It's an opportunity to sit down and put in writing what I want out of my time with my Domme, to discover what she wishes, and to discuss limits. It's my opinion that doing so from within a long term D/s relationships beats the heck out of: "Hi. You look in the mood for kinky tonight. Let's flog."

Only a few of the Dommes (but all of the Doms, interestingly enough) I've served have written the first draft of a contract themselves. Then the draft was passed back and forth. Suggestions were shared. Limits and desires were discussed. Additions were made. Then the precious document was signed and my fate was held in its words for how ever many months it was agreed to last.

I fell out of that habit with my most recent Domme, Ms L. I submitted a few examples to her and she drew up the first contract based on what I sent to her. She based our current contract (our second) upon the first, with a good deal of rewriting and the inclusion of a lengthy appendix containing many of her preferences I must adhere to.

I've also recently authored the contracts for my submissives. I wrote the draft that I sent to a certain butch bottom (that didn't work out), a sexy redhead (referred to hereafter as ChicaX for the sake of convenience and anonymity), and the last few contract I had with one of my life partners, shelly.

However, when recently renegotiating contracts with shelly and ChicaX, I reverted back to having them write the first drafts and was glad of it. ChicaX came up with something that was a combination of the first contract I had with her, several other contracts she found on the net, and a good deal of her own work. I was beautiful and quite fresh. We spent a month revising it and fitting it to our perceived desires.

shelly modified the contract I linked in the article above... the one I mentioned was an example I used. It wasn't much of a revision and I'm currently adding to it. We'll probably bounce it back and forth a few times. I want to add in a bit where she balances my checkbook once a week. She's a fabulous accountant and I hope to take full advantage of that skill.

I'm very happy I've returned to doing things "old school" (where my own experiences are concerned, at least). I think letting a submissive write the first draft gives them a better grasp on exactly what they're getting into, lends them more power in the initial negotiations (which I think is important, because they're the ones giving the beautiful gift of their submission), and offers a sense of responsibility.

Gah. I really only planned to say a few words. Bad overactive fingers! Bad, bad! Where's a nun with a ruler when I need one?

< Message edited by dkitty -- 3/14/2004 7:49:43 PM >

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 4/8/2004 9:09:26 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		very good information on the reasons why the written word can straighten things about when there are more relationships then simply a one on one mono type thingie going on. BUMPS this for a little more imput.

(in reply to dkitty)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 4/10/2004 2:20:30 AM   
UtahGoddess


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Utah
Status: offline 		I have used contracts in many of my relationships. Each relationship has it's unique purpose and motivation. I use them to clarify (for me and for them) the nature of our relationship, real expectations, responsibilities, penalties, etc. Though they are all different, there are some things they hold in common.

They are always temporary in basis.....meaning they have a definite start and stop date.

Our names.

The intention behind the partnership. (What is the contract about?)

Limits....limits of authority, play, interaction, availability, physical issues, etc

My responsibilities and needs. (vary)

Their responsibilities and needs. (vary)

Expectations. (All parties. Vary)

They include "Terms for Termination" and outline the penalty (if any) clearly.

Signed copies for all parties.

I will typically have the person(s) I am making the agreement with draw up the first draft. That way there is no excuse for them not knowing it's content. I have also found people tend to put more effort into agreements they designed themselves and writing it out is more binding for them that signing something I produced.

Most of my contracts are for non love based partnerships and so there is a specific purpose for the commitment. Examples are:
Chastity/ key holder
marriage counsellor/mediator
Mentorship (of a Domme or sub)
Life Coach (personal counsellor/advisor)
A charge submissive (A submissive that belongs to another, but is with me for specific training or a limited time frame)

If I am going to invest time and effort creating and executing a training plan or format, I want to know they are equally vested in intention and effort. A contract helps me select those that "do" from those that "say they will do".

As stated earlier....most our contracts are not legally binding in court. But one does not need a judge to prove dishonesty. They will know they have broken their word and have to live with themselves and the reality of who they are. If they are unscrupulous, dishonest and insidious in their interactions .... life will punish them enough without my intervention.

Ms Sandi

_____________________________

"The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love" Havelock Ellis The Project Gutenberg

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 4/10/2004 6:01:51 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtahGoddess


As stated earlier....most our contracts are not legally binding in court. But one does not need a judge to prove dishonesty. They will know they have broken their word and have to live with themselves and the reality of who they are. If they are unscrupulous, dishonest and insidious in their interactions .... life will punish them enough without my intervention.

Ms Sandi



I'm afraid I haven't read this thread in it's entirety so please excuse me if I echo others here.

I think that contracts are a wonderful tool (as someone else, perhaps Sandi, pointed out in another thread?). I also think that contracts have become a parallel to other mindless mantras in our venue. I have seen so many take something that was put out as a guideline and tool turn it into written-in-stone gospel (and often then turn it into some justification to belittle others who don't especially prescribe to their notion of right and wrong). The SSC acronym is probably the easiest case in point, but I have seen the same happen with contracts. Tools are just that, tools; they are not the beginning and ending of the relationship.

A contract used as a tool for clarification of terms, conditions and commitments is a good thing and I like your idea of having the bottom draw up the first draft. It speaks to the personal responsibility of all parties.

As for the legality of these contracts - it may be that the contract is not legally binding, but if you ever find yourself in a court of law over your bdsm activities a contract could be evidence that the bottom consented. There are a number of states in the U.S. in which consent is a plausible defense for many bdsm activities (woefully few though). Sure, you'd still have to spend your life savings in your defense and then deal with the fall-out thereafter, but a paper trail is not a bad idea when faced with the possibility of this.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to UtahGoddess)
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RE: Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why... - 4/10/2004 12:09:25 PM   
TalN


Posts: 10
Joined: 4/7/2004
Status: offline 		I have used contracts on several occassions, but only once had one signed.

In most cases it has been the final negotiating tool that prooved the sub unworthy of continuance. With one or two the process illuminated how unecessary a written contract was.

However, I still belive that the excution of a written contract provides a good reference later in the relationship to review where you started from and where you have been.

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 20
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