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RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 9:18:45 AM

AAkasha

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: McWhips

Heres the original question: 'What would you think of a male sub who expected you to pay for everything then when asked why they reply with 'Well you want to play dont you?'

Hey, if he was incredibly hot to me, and I knew I wanted him more than anything, and it was our arrangement up front -- sure, I'd pay for everything. If I was clearly the pursuer and he was wanted goods, I'd consider it part of the fetish. I don't mind "paying" a guy for it -- and in some ways, it's erotic to me. I'm the one who has said many times I wish there were pro subs.

The problem with the way you put it though is all in the 'attitude' that I see in the way you wrote it. If he was being snide about it, or arrogant, I wouldn't be attracted to him enough to want to dominate him. If he was simply extremely desirable but needed to be wined and dined, I'd kind of get off on that. I'm the type of femdom that would take subs out and pick out and buy their clothes before taking them to a club.

I've taken on the unspoken role of "the femdom that pays the sub" in the way I have treated men in the past; but it's not because it was demanded, it's because I wantede to do it, and I enjoyed it. And, I also remembered very clearly what it was like to be in college and have no money, so if I was "courting" a sub who was in that position but I was working and making money, it was a pleasure to spoil them in that way.

You can't automatically assume that all femdoms want/need your money. Many of us do fine on our own. You just need to find out what the femdom's motivation is; perhaps you will meet a femdom you find highly desirable but it just so happens she's not in a good financial position at that time.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to McWhips)

Post #: 41

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 10:28:54 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Are those male subs or female subs, emerald?

What I've noticed is that if there is a presumption at all that one person should pay, the presumption is always that the male should pay--whether he is the dom or the sub.

I'm NOT saying all dommes expect male subs to pay or that all female subs expect their doms to pay. I'm saying that when there is any kind of preconceived notion at all, it's always that the male, not the female, should pay. This tells me, incidentally, that the whole issue is really about gender and society, not BDSM.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Which is amusing considering a majority of submissives I have discussed this with feel absolutely that the dominant is financially responsible for dates.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 42

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 10:47:47 AM

onceburned

Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
What I've noticed is that if there is a presumption at all that one person should pay, the presumption is always that the male should pay--whether he is the dom or the sub.

Yes, it is those old, outdated cultural attitudes - guys as financiers, women as sexual gatekeepers.

Personally I expect the domme to foot any bills. After all, if she can't afford a few meals or plane tickets how would she be able to support me when I move in?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 43

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 11:06:37 AM

kc692

Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

Man o man o man. Thats all i can think of at this moment. I never thought this would 'cause an argument between people. Im happy to get replies and this many but im sorry to the people that ive caused to argue.

To the Op:

You have not caused an argument. People have opposing viewpoints and are trying to express them. We are (hopefully) capable of dissenting in an adultlike manner, smiles.

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 44

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 11:15:22 AM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
Personally I expect the domme to foot any bills. After all, if she can't afford a few meals or plane tickets how would she be able to support me when I move in?

LOL, Precisely why I think you're great... You think of all the angles..

M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 45

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 11:36:38 AM

zaynab

Posts: 377
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline

i agree with Lordandmaster.... case by case basis.....

as for me, im a sub..... my dom pays for everything 100% and i do anything he wants 100% .... we both find this to be just perfect.

_____________________________

zaynab[DM]

quote:

i used to care... but now i take a pill for that

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 46

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 12:58:21 PM

kc692

Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline

I like the fact that I know your tongue is buried in your cheek, lmao.....

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 47

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 4:48:06 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I never thought this would 'cause an argument between people. Im happy to get replies and this many but im sorry to the people that ive caused to argue.

As far as I'm concerned, I was not arguing :) I was simply debating. To *me*, there is a difference.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 48

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 8:30:29 PM

SecretDomme

Posts: 152
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

Man o man o man. Thats all i can think of at this moment. I never thought this would 'cause an argument between people. Im happy to get replies and this many but im sorry to the people that ive caused to argue.

You didn't cause an argument. One particular person was unable to respond to the posts in a productive manner.

I tend to pay for things if I am the one suggesting the meeting or pursuing someone, but often the sub I am with chooses to pay for things, even if I offer to do so. That is his choice, and it's a nice gesture, but I certainly don't feel that he has to do that.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 49

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 9:05:30 PM

subrob1967

Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

When I met SweetDommes for the first time I insisted on paying for dinner, for multiple reasons,
1) I have a very well paying job
2) They were still finishing up college
3) They were letting me stay at their apartment for the four days I took off work, it was supposed to be only two. (My staying with them was vanilla, and part of thier arrangement, to see if we were compatable)
4) It's the way I was raised.

They offered to go dutch, but I declined, and they accepted my offer.

As for toys, since I live with them, we use our joint expense account for new toys.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 50

RE: Who should pay? - 6/29/2005 10:32:46 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Alright, I am going to take this down another road.
The OP says the reason the boy is expected to pay is "...well you want to play... "
I do not have any problem whatsoever in having a boy pay. In the first place, he is pursuing Me. Yes, I have an ad, and I state what I am seeking. If a boy is interested enough, after several emails, and some phone time to pursue that further, then I will go out to dinner, or to lunch, for for coffee. And I have absolutely no compunction about having him pick up the check. The boy is not paying for play. he is paying for a date with Me to get to know Me and meet Me, and he is pursuing Me. I don't pursue boys. I am just old-fashioned that way.
I am not meeting you to "play". I am not meeting you because you hope to get some sort of payoff. LA said it well. I am not the life support for your fetish. And if you can't deal with the fact that I am gracing you with My presence at dinner, or lunch, or even coffee, and you can't treat Me as I expect to be treated, then too bad.
And if I want to play, I can go to the Saturday night dungeon party at My local group and have as many boys as I wish. They are throwing themselves at Me. I have yet to meet a boy who would not jump at the chance to find the nearest alleyway and get the party going if he thought that paying for My dinner entitled him to some domination in exchange. And, sadly, that is what has happened with any kind of dating. I don't care how much a boy says "there is no pressure"...there is pressure. The difference is I don't give that pressure a second thought. I ignore it.
I am honest and upfront, and if that is not good enough, then I guess we are not going to meet. I drive Myself, BTW. And I didn't promise you play in the first place, or on the first meet. If you only want to take Me out for coffee because you think that you will get something in return, then your loss. It's not happening with Me.
I do not go to hotel rooms or make boys buy the toys. If I was doing that, I would consider it a Pro session. And *that* you will pay for. And I am with kc692 regarding toys. If they are intimate, you will provide them and then you can take them home with you. If they are not intimate...well I have an entire trunk full, and I am more than happy to use those items.
If a boy does not have much money, that is always taken into consideration. I am sure he is managing to take someone (or just himself) to the movies once in a while, or out for coffee, or he might even be spending some money at the sports bar on the weekend with his buddies. So I don't really want to hear any stories about how it is not affordable. I am not greedy. A coffee shop for some coffee and pie is just as good as a 5 star restaurant in My book. I am speaking of arranged meetings after a period of time spent on email and telephone. I am not speaking of getting together with someone with the strict intention of ending the date with some casual play. I am personally tired of being lumped in with all the Ladies who seem to irritate all the boys so much with their mercenary agenda.
Do you go out on a vanilla date and then complain if you paid the way but you didn't get sex afterwards? This is the way our whole society has developed.
If I feel like paying for something I will. But I don't automatically assume I will pay, and I don't automatically insist on paying because it makes Me feel less obligated. I don't feel obligated, in the first place. And if this is where the boy is coming from, after all the emails and telephone conversations, then I guess I had just as much of a miserable time as he did.
My answer to the OP is...if you are going to a hotel room, and you don't know the Lady very well, then it is as good as a Pro session as far as I'm concerned. This is not a date. I don't end dates or first meetings in a hotel room. Those that do, or the boys that think that is cool, are just trying to get some free kink. If you have a longer term relationship, this question shouldn't be coming up at all. Because you should already know enough about each other to be able to comfortably talk about this type of arrangement and what is affordable for each.

quote:

My argument is both parties are getting enjoyment from it so why should one be forced to pay?

This statement tells Me that you are definitely equating this to prostitution. If the Lady is enjoying the play session and she is not a Pro, then why should you have to foot the bill? (BTW, some Pros do enjoy what they do). If you have a good relationship, I expect you would not be using a hotel room in the first place. If you have only recently met, and you need to run off to a motel room to get tied up and have your ass spanked, and She is willing, then I say even if She is having the best time of Her life, if She says you pay, then you decide it you want to pay or not. If you are not important enough to Her to put the kibosh on the "no pay, no play" rule, then I am willing to bet She is not important enough to you, because you are asking this question in the first place.
you could probably avoid most of this debate by simply taking the time to get to know someone, instead of jumping into the first pair of handcuffs that get dangled your way. Or pay your own way into your weekly local dungeon party, and hope that someone will notice you and give you some playtime.
I am not trying to give anybody a hard time here. This is an endless debate. The bottom line (no pun intended) for Me, is that these questions, comments and yes...sometimes out and out hostile whines, are coming from boys who think just because We have an ad, or state We are in the lifestyle automatically means that We are chomping at the bit to get you into our bedroom. When you agressively pursue a Lady or Ladies, and that is the ultimate goal for you, whether you mean to or not, you are going to attract the Ladies who don't care and will be the life support for your fetish...for a price, of course.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 6/29/2005 10:38:46 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 51

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 1:01:01 AM

MariaCaliban

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/30/2005
Status: offline

Sometimes it's not an issue of being a money-grubbing sub or dom. Sometimes it's an issue of being a broke sub or dom.

That said, money often runs hand and hand with power. Differing or even equivalent income levels can easily muck up a relationship depending on the personalities involved.

_____________________________

The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 52

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 2:53:30 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

In my journey's ive found that Dominat women ( might be same with men,I honestly dont know) but they expect the male to pay for everything.. Hotel rooms, toys, food and whatever. As they say well why should we pay??

My argument is both parties are getting enjoyment from it so why should one be forced to pay?
They say well you want to play...

So to the many people on this site. Who should pay?

are you asking about pro dommes or non pro? a pro wants you to pay everything. a non pro should help out since it is supposed to be a relationship base.
my view on it.

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 53

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 4:38:57 AM

imtempting

Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

non pro. I'd refuse to go to a pro dom as to me it would be the same as going to a brothel.

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 54

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 5:06:54 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting
non pro. I'd refuse to go to a pro dom as to me it would be the same as going to a brothel.

Do what you feel is right. If you like lavishing a woman with money, do it. Realise however that it doesn't guarantee you anything. Also, if you get the feeling that a woman is only after you for your money, and this is something you do not want, then follow your instincts.

You seem like an intelligent, healthy, respectful good looking young man with the right attitude, therefore I'm sure you will have no problem finding a Domme that is a right match for you.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 55

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 12:27:33 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

are you asking about pro dommes or non pro? a pro wants you to pay everything. a non pro should help out since it is supposed to be a relationship base.
my view on it.

Yes, I agree here that it is supposed to be relationship based. But I think this question comes up so often because these playtimes are not relationship based. They are casual, "let's get together for some kink" trysts.
If it is relationship based, I will have you in My home. We will cook dinner. Maybe I will ask you to help with the dinner menu. Maybe you should bring your own intimate toy for use. But where the hell is all the expense here?
My point is, if it is a relationship, these questions should not be a big deal. How much money are you spending? If you are with someone who expects nothing but 5 star entertainment, vacations, spas, and you can't afford it, then perhaps you are with the wrong person.
I keep hearing about expense, and sharing expenses. Unless a boy wants to relocate and comes to Me for a trial on his vacation (which he will pay for by the way...plane or bus tickets, anyway) there is not tremendous expense. And if I feel comfortable you are staying in My home and I am feeding you. Is that enough of a sharing expense? Or do you need more?
If you are trying to hook up with a Lady who is attractive and well off and used to the finer things in life, and you can't afford to provide that, and She will not settle for less, best to move on and find someone more suited to your tastes and ability. Just don't tell Me that it is not fair and that the expenses should be shared. Figure out your priorities and then find someone who is on the same page.
I have seen Ladies on here who say they will not allow a boy to pay because it obligates them. And if the chemistry is not there, or it doesn't evolve into a play date, then for some reason the Ladies feel they they didn't do their part? I guess I am different. If I felt like every time any male took Me out to dinner, or to a movie, if I didn't spread My legs at the end of evening I was being unfair to him, I would never date at all.
That, to Me, is worse than prostitution. Because nobody was honest about it. Instead of handing Me some cash, you paid the dinner check. Why does this simple act obligate Me? Is this the way it is 100% of the time now? If any boy spends any money on Me, I have to reciprocate in a sexual manner?
How did this notion evolve? Dinner for sex (or domination or kink)? Someone could take Me out to dinner ten times and never make it into My house. Another might take the time to email, and speak with Me on the phone, and go for coffee once, and spend the following weekend with Me. I will not give in to this new rule book. I am a Domina. If I want to play I will play, and it will not be expensive. If I don't want to play, I won't. The person who paid for the meal does not run the show. Not with Me.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 56

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 12:50:37 PM

AAkasha

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

are you asking about pro dommes or non pro? a pro wants you to pay everything. a non pro should help out since it is supposed to be a relationship base.
my view on it.

Yes, I agree here that it is supposed to be relationship based. But I think this question comes up so often because these playtimes are not relationship based. They are casual, "let's get together for some kink" trysts.
If it is relationship based, I will have you in My home. We will cook dinner. Maybe I will ask you to help with the dinner menu. Maybe you should bring your own intimate toy for use. But where the hell is all the expense here?
My point is, if it is a relationship, these questions should not be a big deal. How much money are you spending? If you are with someone who expects nothing but 5 star entertainment, vacations, spas, and you can't afford it, then perhaps you are with the wrong person.
I keep hearing about expense, and sharing expenses. Unless a boy wants to relocate and comes to Me for a trial on his vacation (which he will pay for by the way...plane or bus tickets, anyway) there is not tremendous expense. And if I feel comfortable you are staying in My home and I am feeding you. Is that enough of a sharing expense? Or do you need more?
If you are trying to hook up with a Lady who is attractive and well off and used to the finer things in life, and you can't afford to provide that, and She will not settle for less, best to move on and find someone more suited to your tastes and ability. Just don't tell Me that it is not fair and that the expenses should be shared. Figure out your priorities and then find someone who is on the same page.
I have seen Ladies on here who say they will not allow a boy to pay because it obligates them. And if the chemistry is not there, or it doesn't evolve into a play date, then for some reason the Ladies feel they they didn't do their part? I guess I am different. If I felt like every time any male took Me out to dinner, or to a movie, if I didn't spread My legs at the end of evening I was being unfair to him, I would never date at all.
That, to Me, is worse than prostitution. Because nobody was honest about it. Instead of handing Me some cash, you paid the dinner check. Why does this simple act obligate Me? Is this the way it is 100% of the time now? If any boy spends any money on Me, I have to reciprocate in a sexual manner?
How did this notion evolve? Dinner for sex (or domination or kink)? Someone could take Me out to dinner ten times and never make it into My house. Another might take the time to email, and speak with Me on the phone, and go for coffee once, and spend the following weekend with Me. I will not give in to this new rule book. I am a Domina. If I want to play I will play, and it will not be expensive. If I don't want to play, I won't. The person who paid for the meal does not run the show. Not with Me.

I'll clarify the types of situations that I've been in where the "who pays" and "no play obligation" issue comes up.

Location was never an issue with me if I met someone on the net that I felt I had chemistry with (although, I did stick to the USA). Keep in mind, this was 4+ years ago, so the climate of "seekers" was different -- this wasn't through personals sites, it was from discussion groups usually or people writing to me to comment on one of my stories.

If some chemistry developed after phone calls and picture exchanges, there would be some urgency to meet of course. I wasn't looking for "relationships" but wasn't ruling it out -- but was open for play if there was chemistry. But, we all know how sometimes "phone" chemistry does NOT translate into real life chemistry. If the sub in question lived on the other side of the US and I wanted to explore further, we'd have to plan a trip of some sort. There comes the issue of cost -- flying, hotel, etc. In that situation, I wouldn't want the sub to pay my way because even though he was *sure* we'd click in real life, I wasn't -- I've always been more of a realist.

The other times that paying would be an issue would be if I didn't know a guy *that* well, but email and maybe some phone seemed to be progressing and he'd want to move things faster and offer to fly out to meet me or whatnot -- that would be something I would turn down, even if he'd say "oh if we don't click, that's ok, we don't have to do anything."

I can see why it might seem odd that the courting process would be "first date == play or no play, who pays?" but when you are talking about people who have developed some chemistry on the phone and through pictures, it's a reality to be faced.

If someone local was perking my interest, I'd just have him go meet me at a club where I hang out or meet at a mutual restaurant for a meal (I'd pay -- I just *like* to pay), and I'd be happy to do that earlier on in getting to know someone vs. the more screening I would do for guys that lived in another state.

That's my version of how the money aspect ever got brought into it.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 57

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 1:02:52 PM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
What I've noticed is that if there is a presumption at all that one person should pay, the presumption is always that the male should pay--whether he is the dom or the sub.

Yes, it is those old, outdated cultural attitudes - guys as financiers, women as sexual gatekeepers.

Personally I expect the domme to foot any bills. After all, if she can't afford a few meals or plane tickets how would she be able to support me when I move in?

quote:

Yes, it is those old, outdated cultural attitudes - guys as financiers, women as sexual gatekeepers.

==================
gatekeepers? cool name. boy am i happy i gave up sex in 2001. i don't have the stress and headaches about chasing-the-skirts anymore. makes life so much easier now.
take care bro.
the wolf

< Message edited by lonewolf05 -- 6/30/2005 1:03:42 PM >

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 58

RE: Who should pay? - 6/30/2005 11:31:02 PM

LadyWings

Posts: 5
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

Interesting disussion..there are a few flickering flames though..so I trust No O/one will mind if I step back from the fire. As to the actual topic, personally...It all depends on the I/individuals and the dynamics involved in My opinion.

My own personal preference, when meeting with a submissive/slave the first time, I will pay My own way, to maintain My integrity, independence and autonomy. If there is chemistry there, and this is someone that I wish to pursue a tad further, then Yes, I am a Lady, and expect therefore to be treated as such. Chivalry is not dead...just smells that way sometimes sadly enough.

Lady Wings

(in reply to imtempting)

Post #: 59

RE: Who should pay? - 7/1/2005 3:37:35 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyWings

My own personal preference, when meeting with a submissive/slave the first time, I will pay My own way, to maintain My integrity, independence and autonomy. If there is chemistry there, and this is someone that I wish to pursue a tad further, then Yes, I am a Lady, and expect therefore to be treated as such. Chivalry is not dead...just smells that way sometimes sadly enough.

Lady Wings

And I differ here, as I do not feel that permitting a boy to pay for My dinner, or coffee is any way compromises My integrity, independence or autonomy. As I said, I am old-fashioned. It doesn't matter what the goal of the relationship is to be.
If I expect a boy to serve Me, and he claims this is his wish, why should he not begin to show some of that service by accepting My permission to cover the cost of the meeting? I am not talking about anything overly expensive.
I understand those who admit they will pursue someone, and they have no problem paying for that pursuit. And I especially understand if there is an ongoing relationship through another media and the expectation is already there. The possibility is already strong and both parties are aware of this. In that case, I would, Myself, make sure I did not take advantage, or feel special obligation, in case I changed My kind.
But I am not pursuing anyone. I have made it known that I am available for pursuit. pursuit does not = kink. Paying for dinner, does not = right to domination.
Therein lies the fatal flaw, for Me anyway. I just answered this on another thread. If boys think that having an ad as a Dominant on a site like this automaticallly means that We are available for casual kink, and We foster that by insisting that paying Our own way negates the obligation to "put out" somehow, then it is Our own fault. Because We are then giving the impression that any money spent automatically gives the boy the right to something in return.
Ladies, I ask this...
How would you feel if a submissive girl met with a Dom for the first time, and because that manly man paid for the dinner, he expected her to give him a blow job. Should she offer to pay for her own dinner in order to ensure that there is not feeling of obligation? In some instances, this probably happens.
The second question: How would you feel about a boy who says he does not want to pay for the meal unless he is going to get some free playtime in exchange? Why would you take that option away from him to show his true colors? If a boy refused to pay for coffee unless he felt he was going to get a spanking in exchange, I would not be the least bit interested in him.
These are not cases of Dom vs femsub, or FemDom vs malesub.
It is really a gender thing. It is really a casual kink hook-up thing. It is is not a Dominant/submissive thing at all.

**(#501) And now I guess I lose My pretty handcuffs!

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 7/1/2005 4:25:50 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to LadyWings)

Post #: 60

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