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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/7/2008 7:07:28 PM   
ShaktiSama


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Penetration is constructed male dominant in this society--goes back to the Classical era, which why who's "pitching" and who's "catching" in a homosexual male liaison is sometimes emphasized. 

*shrug*  It's a goofy, arbitrary cultural decision, and Najak has already pointed out that other cultures have different views of intercourse.  When I see Kali sitting on top of Shiva, She doesn't look too "submissive" to me... 

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/7/2008 7:16:04 PM   
Pyrrsefanie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silverbunny
Essentially my question is whether the act of penetration is inherently submissive - can a woman get penetrated and still be Dominant in that act?  If so, how?  I always said yes, provided she in ontop, and using certain techniques like orgasm control etc. she can assert her Dominance.  But this is a new perspective for me.


I love being penetrated by my boy.  He's amazing in bed, whether it's kinky time or just a good old-fashioned hawt sexxing.  It makes me feel closer to him.  And the whole process of trying to make a baby is just damn fun.  I never considered it submissive because I get it when I want it.  With us it's a matter of me literally dragging him into the bedroom/onto the floor/kitchen counter/etc., ripping his clothes off, and using him.

I asked him once if he ever felt like a piece of meat.  His response was "Yes, and I love it."

I also love it when he cums.  Recently he was in chastity for a month and I was in an absolutely terrible mood from it -- he was fine.  He got over it.  Not me.  Now I know why nuns are so fucking mean.  We joke that it's harder on me than it is on him, no pun intended. 

Then again I'm kind of a slut.  Sexy time! 






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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/7/2008 7:36:41 PM   
CoasttoCoast


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I feel like submitting is a pretty inherently submissive act.

there's not much else that inherently submissive.

Maybe boot licking.

Then again, if there's ice cream on the boot, and you both want it, it's the dominants.

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/7/2008 7:41:19 PM   
Pyrrsefanie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CoasttoCoast

Then again, if there's ice cream on the boot, and you both want it, it's the dominants.



That there's a stabbing offense, boy!


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Ти саркастична, це – доля,
Ти артистична в неволі,
Ти симпатична в цій ролі,
Ти синтетична до болю

Read my series, Taking Jessica, on http://www.akashaweb.com !

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/7/2008 7:42:16 PM   
CoasttoCoast


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pffft. good luck stabbing me from florida

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/7/2008 7:47:42 PM   
kiyari


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Our bodies are... tools, vehicles.

Perspective doubtless... 'influenced' by... one's [religious or other] Personal Beliefs.

For me, the body is ... akin to a tool; it is but one's temporal physical incarnation.

As One presently occupying a Female 'vehicle' - being penetrated is... heh, just 'yum!'.

Not into procreation, here.

Neither into 'submission'.

Just another... perspective.

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 1:19:19 AM   
hands0n0knees


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Penetration is constructed male dominant in this society--goes back to the Classical era, which why who's "pitching" and who's "catching" in a homosexual male liaison is sometimes emphasized. 

*shrug*  It's a goofy, arbitrary cultural decision, and Najak has already pointed out that other cultures have different views of intercourse.  When I see Kali sitting on top of Shiva, She doesn't look too "submissive" to me... 


I posted a thread about this sometime ago.  I, like any good Nietzschean, accept the fictionality of the metaphysical activity/passivity opposition.  But, as you say, it has been a cultural signifier of submission throughout history: naval culture, prison culture, molly houses, ancient Greek pedagogy, and so on.  So, why not utilise this in bdsm play?  It is just a state of mind, but then so is the belief that any 'sub' is truly submissive: it's not really a submissive act in this sense to be beaten if you've got an active desire for it.  This lifestyle is all about fictional oppositions, isn't it?

As for that 'other' culture and its penis draining, I am not myself aware of it.  In any case, fear of female sexual desire is well documented in this country, with the excavation of potency a common trope.  I don't think it formed a part of the activity/passivity question when placed in those terms.  Nevertheless, even aboriginal cultures have their effete men whose role in sex is passive (the Andean Ipas, to name one, but there are many).  The prohibition of passivity does vary between societies, but, for whatever reason, the role usually comprises part of a generally submissive identity.  This suggests that there is something about it that 'tricks' us into thinking this way about it.  Perhaps it's because the mechanics of penetrative sex make it much harder for the penetrating partner to be forced into the act?

< Message edited by hands0n0knees -- 5/8/2008 1:21:51 AM >

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 4:26:41 AM   
LadyJeelys


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I don't think so.

After all, taking a man is just that, taking his most intimate part....taking a man's "manhood" over, taking posession. And, frankly, let's be honest here, a woman can control just how much friction the man experiences....which means she controls just how much enjoyment he gets out of it. Too, that control means that if a women were so inclined she could determine whether the act is pleasant or rather painful to the man. I think that's why men used to think women had teeth in their vaginas that would snip off parts of a man.

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 4:47:50 AM   
MsLilac


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Penetration is not inherently submissive. The one who expends the most energy during a scene/intercourse/situation isn’t necessarily the dominant one in the act. Context is everything, and who is actually controlling the situation is where you will find the dominant party in an act.

Who is on top, who is more vocal, who is doing who, does not indicate the dominant party. I personally get very little from riding on top of my slave, it does not tickle my hot spots much. One of the positions that does tickle my hotspot is doggy style….

Now, superficially I’m on all fours being fucked hard and deep. My slave is holding on to me, banging away, and is most obviously the one expending the energy, whilst I sit there passively and receive. Does that make me sub? Does it heck!! In the doggy position, his cock in rubbing my ‘G’ spot better than any other position, and my knees get a rest. Doggy position allows either he or I to rub my clit -- ‘G’ spot rubbing and clit rubbing leads to the most mind blowing orgasms for me. Depending upon my mood, I may or may not allow him to cum. I call the shots, I say how and where I want it. I am the one ordering him to go faster, slower, deeper. I am the one growling and shouting at him. I am the one who says stop if I want to, and he will always obey. He and his cock are at my bidding. He certainly will not cum until I allow it. My slave will tell you he does not feel the slightest bit dominant fucking me… in any position.

I may occasionally, when feeling devious, use a torture implement on his body during the act, but it is absolutely not necessary for our power exchange, I’m still the alpha in our relationship, regardless. That is just my sadistic side playing, it indicates nothing about our D/s structure. I would question the D/s basis of my relationship if I *had* to torture/deny orgasm/ride him on top, to elicit submission on the man I do it to -- as a re-enforcement, yeah maybe. As the only route to ensure his submission, and *prove* my dominance over him, hell no.

Now, I could ban penetration for myself except for say, riding him on top aggressively, when I wish to comply with one dimensional, narrow-minded, peer induced, symbolic lifestyle protocols, that don’t really gel with *my* context, or the way I think. But then, I would miss out on something that I find pleasurable, something that re-enforces the bond we have, and get frustrated and be unfulfilled.

One could ask, does the male dom who has his sub/slave ride him on top make him any less dominant? Of course not. He is getting serviced, whilst getting a damn good eyeful. Again, it’s about context and control.

This penis-centric notion that the cock is all-mighty and powerful and ruling is just perpetrating a wrong, rather sexist, unenlightened and borderline misogynistic view, imho. To me, if one truly holds the kind of symbolic notion that a hard cock has that kind of power over their vagina, potentially or otherwise, then one cannot be confidently dominant in a relationship with a male, whether the relationship is sexual or not, imho. It really is just all silly, and over analytical.

I actually tend to symbolically see the vagina as ‘sheathing’ the penis, taking what it wants, using it to stimulate yummy spots, whilst at the same time using it to tease and control the penis; as well as ‘taking‘ part of his essence away if the vagina wants to. Where as others will see it as ‘invading’. As I say - context and control is everything, penetration in itself has nothing inherent to it.

Crikey, they are just body parts, built from eons of continuing evolutionary perfection, that compliment each other flawlessly. Just enjoy them and have fun! ;)

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 5:06:14 AM   
chezzy71


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I would be shocked if any Domina actually enjoyed the missionary position....or doggie style for that matter although that can be fun...it is not a pre-conceived notion either..a Domina belongs on top..that's my story and i am sticking to it.

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 5:13:56 AM   
Madame4a


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chezzy71

I would be shocked if any Domina actually enjoyed the missionary position....or doggie style for that matter although that can be fun...it is not a pre-conceived notion either..a Domina belongs on top..that's my story and i am sticking to it.


You need to get out more... and I wouldn't openly reveal that shock if your notions are challenged. 

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 5:32:52 AM   
MsStarlett


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chezzy71

I would be shocked if any Domina actually enjoyed the missionary position....or doggie style for that matter although that can be fun...it is not a pre-conceived notion either..a Domina belongs on top..that's my story and i am sticking to it.


Pardon?  I do with my husband!  Not with my boys.  (But then, they normally don't get to have sexual contact with me.)  I love anal sex also - With My Husband.  However, as mentioned, I say when and what we're going to be doing.  I also love to see him cum when it's been awhile for him.  He shakes his long hair like a big old lion.  It's VERY fun to lay on my back and watch.


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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 5:36:24 AM   
MsLilac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chezzy71

it is not a pre-conceived notion either..a Domina belongs on top..


LMFAO! Oh, the irony.

quote:



I would be shocked if any Domina actually enjoyed the missionary position....or doggie style for that matter


Prepared to be shocked! *Gasps*.



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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 5:41:29 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silverbunny
can a woman get penetrated and still be Dominant in that act?

Yes.
quote:

  If so, how?

Because I say so.

Master Fire


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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 5:43:21 AM   
MsStarlett


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

  If so, how?

Because I say so.

Master Fire



Very well said!  *applauds* 


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the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning,
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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 6:04:00 AM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chezzy71

I would be shocked if any Domina actually enjoyed the missionary position....or doggie style for that matter although that can be fun...it is not a pre-conceived notion either..a Domina belongs on top..that's my story and i am sticking to it.


Not that you haven't already been shocked out of your socks by now, but I generally prefer the missionary position. Why? Excuse me, but I get to lay back and enjoy while he does all the work. Works for me.
Of course, I end up making him do the work when I'm on top, too, because I have good-for-nothing knees, but it's less comfortable, generally.

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 8:08:36 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hands0n0knees

So, why not utilise this in bdsm play?  It is just a state of mind, but then so is the belief that any 'sub' is truly submissive: it's not really a submissive act in this sense to be beaten if you've got an active desire for it.  This lifestyle is all about fictional oppositions, isn't it?


Absolutely.  And many female dominants do use the Western ideal of "penetration = domination" and "being penetrated = submission" to their advantage...those women often avoid penetration because they feel it interferes or overturns the D/S dynamic.

This would be problematic for me, however, because I enjoy intercourse and would not care to do without it.  Nor do I feel that I am suddenly not the dominant partner when a man is using his penis to please me.  *shrug*  And I am not a huge fan of Western patriarchist modes of thought; a system that automatically constructs me as a victim and an inferior, even while allowing me to be provisionally dominant over men who are in a "fallen" state, really does nothing for me sexually or emotionally.

  Takes all kinds.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/8/2008 8:09:58 AM >


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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 8:21:25 AM   
MaamJay


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As one who has both Dominant and submissive sex ... depending on who I'm with ... it's all about who is in control and absolutely nothing about who is sticking what into whom in what position!

When violet makes love with Master, He is the One in control, and it's all about His pleasure as far as i am concerned. i am just very fortunate in that He gets a lot of His pleasure from watching mine  so He loves to play me and watch and hear my responses. So usually it's a win-win. But on the occasion when He has cum and i haven't, i really don't mind at all, it's a different kind of pleasure for me to know i have satisfied Him at the expense of myself (sort of martyr pleasure if that makes sense, but not martyr in the sense of misery, more in the sense of honour).

When (in the past grrr! I need a new boy!) Jay has made love with a sub, She is the One in control and She directs the action to maximise Her pleasure. Which usually means making him do most of the work  ... with My knees I'm not getting up on top too often! Because I am a kind and loving Domme, more often than not he will get off too ... mainly because it helps ME cum when I feel those last hard thrusts pre-his-orgasm! But in another mood, I will direct him to perform only oral, or to use toys ... and then he won't necessarily get to cum at the time. Hopefully he feels the same sense of honour at having pleased Me so well.

The conversation in the OP strikes Me as pretty naive and not really well thought out. By contrast, DV's young Fox made an excellent riposte! You have taught him well DV!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 8:37:27 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Most Dom women find penertation pleasurable and enjoys good hott sex.I am married to a very dom woman and enjoy her any way I want,why,because she enjoys the lovemakin' thats the difference makin' love and sex...Why even the idea that you aren't Dom if he sends a shive up your spine is a big crock...

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RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? - 5/8/2008 9:03:32 AM   
LadyLynx


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For me, it isn't the act itself that is submissive or Dominant, it is the person doing it. (penatrating or the one being penetrated.) and physically the Dom can be on the bottom, and there doesn't have to be anything like orgasm control in order for the Dom to be in charge.

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