Is Penetration Inherently Submissive?

Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (Full Version)

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Silverbunny -> Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 12:25:21 PM)
I apologize in advance for the long post. This question comes to me after a conversation in the vanilla world with some friends after we went to a male dancers (female client) strip club. The group was co-ed. Given my involvement in the BDSM world I found this particularly interesting. I'm including an exerpt from the transcript in case anyone wants detail. The different colours speak to different people that were talking (urgh apparently different colours don't work). A disclaimer that the conversation happened after a fair amount of alcohol consumption so we do fall off track a bit and cut each other off etc. Essentially my question is whether the act of penetration is inherently submissive - can a woman get penetrated and still be Dominant in that act? If so, how? I always said yes, provided she in ontop, and using certain techniques like orgasm control etc. she can assert her Dominance. But this is a new perspective for me. But when you’re talking submissive and dominant the simple matter of fact is there’s no way to be dominant when you’re getting a penis like shoved in you, like that is a submissive role so for women to go to a strip club and be sexualized they have to be submissive But why? Because where the girl whips the boy and so forth and that’s a kink but the truth of the matter is so long as there is penetration towards the woman – penetration is a submissive role that is a sad matter of fact and its not that sexy a fact to acknowledge but penetration is a submissive role and that is why forever and ever girls will always be in the submissive role But a woman can push a guy down onto a bed and climb ontop of him and… But so long as he’s not hard nothing’s gonna happen, that’s why when guys can’t get hard…its their fault no matter how ugly or fat or idiotic she is But I know a fair amount of guys to say the least that the concept of a woman pushing them down on a bed, straddling them and climbing ontop of them, ripping their clothes off, would get them hard, and the woman can tease them… That’s not rape. Then its not rape I didn’t say it was rape, we weren’t even discussing rape Then its not submissive That is submissive, for the woman to climb ontop? That’s not submissive. I mean a woman can…. That is submissive, but the sexual act will never be submissive for the man so long as she is being penetrated If she penetrates him with a dildo in the ass Exactly there you go Yes, that … I am submissive. Its all about fucking your loved one Penetration is submissive – there is nothing more submissive than being penetrated. Because the man is going into you you’re not going into the man. Women can definitely be dominant and they can take power in the fact They can be dominant by beating a man or penetrating him, There are definitely girls that can totally excite me that I definitely didn’t want to and that is power man I agree, but … What does that have to do with anything? Everything has to do with penetration vs. whats it called when you get penetrated? Penetration vs. penetrated. K it all has to boil down to that, I am sorry, everything you want to boil it down to the essence of everything, and it all has to do with who is getting penetrated. Because in prison when you’re getting penetrated then you are the bitch. It is the role that you play – whether or not the guy or the girl whoever is doing the penetrating this is what matters This is actually believe it or not this is actually all very relevant. Very relative Relevant not relative E=mc ass fucked Yeah but here’s the thing its like – if you are a guy and you tell the girl to penetrate you you’re still the dominant one, she is not the dominant one I agree but what about K if she were to be the one to initiate it - you wanna talk about gender roles and domination, domination is a big part of gender roles and all that its all about who is dominant, who is ontop, who forces and who is the one to be the willing one to want it and who is the one who doesn’t want it, you go to a strip club, guys are the ones who want it And who takes it But women want it at these kinds of strip clubs Yeah but they want to take it they don’t want to give it, they want to take it But that’s what I’m saying you can’t really – when it comes to sex and like strip clubs and stuff like that and genders its like its really hard to say Its like a dominatrix will beat the fuck out of a guy but they will never have sex with them because they are giving they will never take it

MistressKali1 -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 12:36:28 PM)
I think that the act of being penetrated is an inherently submissive act. The dominant female can direct and control orgasm which certainly tips the power balance a bit but ultimately the one with a cock in them is the one who is submitting, at least to a certain extent. That being said everyone needs to give up a measure of control at least some of the time, though not necessarily to a submissive.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 12:41:42 PM)
I forget which culture it is, but there is one that uses the metaphor of eating to refer to the vagina taking the penis in and draining its essence. In their casual slang, sex is spoken of as the woman "eating" the man or making him give up his essence/power so that she may "eat" it. My guess is that in that culture, the man's penetrating the woman is probably not thought of as a dominant/submissive act per se so much as the man's being in a vulnerable position for the woman to make him give up a piece of himself into her. The myth of vagina dentata probably springs from this basic insecurity and a man's feeling that he is being made vulnerable by allowing a part of him to be enclosed in and controlled by a woman's body.

Shawn1066 -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 12:50:11 PM)
I think the theory that penetration is inherently submissive is really utter bullshit. No offense, of course, to anybody who disagrees. It's really a case of people overanalyzing, I believe. I penetrate my Owner all of the time. This is not a covert act of dominance on my part. It's a very deep act of submission for me. I am giving her pleasure when she wants it and how she wants it. She dicates the beginning, the pace, and the end. She's in control of the act. The fact that she penetrates me isn't a dominant act within itself either. If I told her when to penetrate me, how to penetrate me, and when to stop... THEN it'd be a pretty submissive act. It's all about the context. It's all about who's in control. Who's on top doesn't matter at all either. I believe such ideas about positions is a very narrow way of looking at things. I can be on top of my Owner and be completely submissive to her, as I always am. Me being on top doesn't suddenly give me a powerful urge to dominate. In fact, it's more submissive for me than being on the bottom. Here's a better question... Why would a dominant woman deny herself something that she finds pleasurable? Isn't she supposed to be in control of her own desires? Isn't she supposed to do as she pleases? If she refuses to do something that she knows will give her pleasure just because she feels it's something that she "shouldn't" do...then she's merely submitting to other people's expectations of her. Just my humble opinion, DV's Fox

MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 12:50:51 PM)
Not for those of us who enjoy the sensation of penetration [:)] Straddling my partner and using his cock for my pleasure does not feel submissive to me. How else would D/s lifestyle couples like us make our beautiful babies [8\|]? Denying myself any part of him (or - god forbid - celibacy) would not be sexually dominant IMO.

Madame4a -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 1:00:24 PM)
I don't think it is... this argument comes up in the lesbo world too... why would you want penetration.. its so straight (submissive)... thats just crap... its about intent and head space... and what feels good I like penetration, I like being fucked (can I say that?) hard ... but I don't feel the least bit submissive in that space... the key for me is to find someone who can fuck from the right head space... that's the simple answer, its obviously much more complicated than that.. at least in my mind... dominance is not always about control -- sometimes its simply about being the one who makes the choice for themselves, whatever that choice is...

RedMagic1 -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 1:09:10 PM)
The very question seems loaded with the same baggage as, "You're only gay/Domme because you haven't had a real man yet." If penetration is inherently ANYTHING, then some version of that statement must be true, even if it's, "You're only a dominant male because you haven't had a real leatherdyke plow you from behind yet." If I'm receiving a massage, am I submitting? Am I submitting if I'm receiving a prostate massage? Do I have to turn in my Dom card if I want to give a massage? Too much focus on roles, not enough focus on pleasing each other. It's a leather Puritanism.

Madame4a -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 1:10:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 If penetration is inherently ANYTHING, then some version of that statement must be true, even if it's, "You're only a dominant male because you haven't had a real leatherdyke plow you from behind yet." uh huh.. now that one, its true.. grin ... [sm=agree.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]

thetammyjo -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 1:13:03 PM)
Why exactly would taking someone or something into your body be submissive? You surround what enters your body and if you are female and that is a penis, you would use the material it would deposit for the creation of life you would decide whether or not to allow to grow and how to take of yourself and unborn while it did so. Seems to me that it can be easily argued that female takes from males not the other way around. Is taking the same as domination however? Is giving innately submissive?

Phin -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 1:13:55 PM)
FR~~ outside of barking orders and taking the orders there is no inherently submissive/dominant act.

Misstoyou -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 2:30:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shawn1066 I think the theory that penetration is inherently submissive is really utter bullshit.. . Just my humble opinion, DV's Fox I agree with your "humble opinion."

DarkLovelyDomme -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 2:57:25 PM)
The only reason penetration was ever given the value of being "submissive" is because women were usually the ones on the receiving end, and people like to think of women as inherently lower than men. So no. I don't think penetration has any inherent value on its own. And really... think of all the devious things you can do with it: Withhold it. Allow it only until a point... that is not orgasm. Agree that every minute inside means clamping down harder on his nipples. Be creative!

MladyHathor -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 3:28:31 PM)
*If I'm stuck on the bottom and not directing--yes, if I'm on top taking what I want---no.*

bipolarber -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 3:48:40 PM)
I think Shawn has it right. It's really more about who's in control. I've been with a few Dommes who tied me down and then teased me. They took their pleasure, and I had no way to control things. I can tell you that in no way did I feel like I was dominating my Domme. If anything, they were torturing me with the act. If it can feel that way, then obviously, no, it is not inherently a dominant act... As Shawn has pointed out, the context of who has the control over the penetration means everything.

LeatherBentOne -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 4:09:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silverbunny I apologize in advance for the long post. This question comes to me after a conversation in the vanilla world with some friends after we went to a male dancers (female client) strip club. The group was co-ed. Given my involvement in the BDSM world I found this particularly interesting. I'm including an exerpt from the transcript in case anyone wants detail. The different colours speak to different people that were talking (urgh apparently different colours don't work). A disclaimer that the conversation happened after a fair amount of alcohol consumption so we do fall off track a bit and cut each other off etc. Essentially my question is whether the act of penetration is inherently submissive - can a woman get penetrated and still be Dominant in that act? If so, how? I always said yes, provided she in ontop, and using certain techniques like orgasm control etc. she can assert her Dominance. But this is a new perspective for me. But when you’re talking submissive and dominant the simple matter of fact is there’s no way to be dominant when you’re getting a penis like shoved in you, like that is a submissive role so for women to go to a strip club and be sexualized they have to be submissive But why? Because where the girl whips the boy and so forth and that’s a kink but the truth of the matter is so long as there is penetration towards the woman – penetration is a submissive role that is a sad matter of fact and its not that sexy a fact to acknowledge but penetration is a submissive role and that is why forever and ever girls will always be in the submissive role But a woman can push a guy down onto a bed and climb ontop of him and… But so long as he’s not hard nothing’s gonna happen, that’s why when guys can’t get hard…its their fault no matter how ugly or fat or idiotic she is But I know a fair amount of guys to say the least that the concept of a woman pushing them down on a bed, straddling them and climbing ontop of them, ripping their clothes off, would get them hard, and the woman can tease them… That’s not rape. Then its not rape I didn’t say it was rape, we weren’t even discussing rape Then its not submissive That is submissive, for the woman to climb ontop? That’s not submissive. I mean a woman can…. That is submissive, but the sexual act will never be submissive for the man so long as she is being penetrated If she penetrates him with a dildo in the ass Exactly there you go Yes, that … I am submissive. Its all about fucking your loved one Penetration is submissive – there is nothing more submissive than being penetrated. Because the man is going into you you’re not going into the man. Women can definitely be dominant and they can take power in the fact They can be dominant by beating a man or penetrating him, There are definitely girls that can totally excite me that I definitely didn’t want to and that is power man I agree, but … What does that have to do with anything? Everything has to do with penetration vs. whats it called when you get penetrated? Penetration vs. penetrated. K it all has to boil down to that, I am sorry, everything you want to boil it down to the essence of everything, and it all has to do with who is getting penetrated. Because in prison when you’re getting penetrated then you are the bitch. It is the role that you play – whether or not the guy or the girl whoever is doing the penetrating this is what matters This is actually believe it or not this is actually all very relevant. Very relative Relevant not relative E=mc ass fucked Yeah but here’s the thing its like – if you are a guy and you tell the girl to penetrate you you’re still the dominant one, she is not the dominant one I agree but what about K if she were to be the one to initiate it - you wanna talk about gender roles and domination, domination is a big part of gender roles and all that its all about who is dominant, who is ontop, who forces and who is the one to be the willing one to want it and who is the one who doesn’t want it, you go to a strip club, guys are the ones who want it And who takes it But women want it at these kinds of strip clubs Yeah but they want to take it they don’t want to give it, they want to take it But that’s what I’m saying you can’t really – when it comes to sex and like strip clubs and stuff like that and genders its like its really hard to say Its like a dominatrix will beat the fuck out of a guy but they will never have sex with them because they are giving they will never take it For me, penetration of any oriface including my mouth with a tongue is not allowed. I use this as only one tool of many to assert my dominance.

MsStarlett -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 5:05:52 PM)
Not submissive in the slightest bit if I am the one in control. I enjoy lying across my sub's lap and having him penetrate me with toys of my choice in the manner I prefer as a form of Ghoddess Worship. He only gets the pleasure of making me happy.

hopelesslyInvo -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 5:20:44 PM)
surely penetration more easily/often lends itself to being a submissive or dominant act depending on who is being penetrated or penetrating, just as in bondage or whipping and all sorts of other scenarios, but control will always be the deciding factor rather than the act itself.

Insatiable4Black -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 5:29:04 PM)
I'm not going to give an opinion either way - but I will say - this was an interesting question to pose (a la Devil's advocate style) and I enjoyed reading the post itself as well as the replies so far! Kudos!

thetammyjo -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 5:50:22 PM)
And I just now thought to add this. You know, many, many people don't even see it as a power or authority thing. It is simple pleasure or an expression of love. Not everything in life has to have a dominant and/or submissive streak to it.

Lashra -> RE: Is Penetration Inherently Submissive? (5/7/2008 6:22:31 PM)
I feel this way about it, as long as the woman is getting the penetration the way that SHE wants it , regardless of position, she is the Dominant partner. My sub and I do it all different ways and I am the one who tells him "We are doing it this way or that way and I want it hard (deep, fast whatever)" he does as I tell him, because I am the Dominant. If a woman is overseeing the sex act and she is telling her sub how she wants it, that makes her (in my mind) the Dominant partner, the one taking the instruction is the submissive partner. ~Lashra

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