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RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 8:58:10 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Damn, dude. I'm impressed. Slavery as we practice it has some elements of definition 1 (though in our case the slave binds themselves as property instead of being forceably bound). Definition 2 is also important, especially the "abjectly" part. Along the lines of that definition, saying "I am submissive to his will" and "I am a slave to his will" aren't the same thing. One is abject, the other is not.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/9/2004 9:00:20 AM >

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 8:59:05 AM   
Guest
 I don't agree. One of the definitions of abject is:

3 : expressing or offered in a humble and often ingratiating spirit

Why can't someone be both willing (consensual) and abject to a specific person or influence (slavery)?

Mod 4

(in reply to afmvdp)
  Post #: 62
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 9:06:24 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Well, that definition is along the lines of "I offer my abject apologies". I don't think that is the definition that the other definition relies upon. That said, I think that someone can be a "slave to his will" consentually. I think that someone can be "submissive to her will" consentually. One implies abject (utter) subservience or obedience, the other does not.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/9/2004 9:09:00 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 9:16:48 AM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorFour

I don't agree. One of the definitions of abject is:
3 : expressing or offered in a humble and often ingratiating spirit
Why can't someone be both willing (consensual) and abject to a specific person or influence (slavery)?


Well you're obviously using a far different dictionary than standard US.

ab·ject
Pronunciation Key (Ab-jkt) adj.

1: Brought low in condition or status. See Synonyms at mean2.
2: Being of the most miserable or contemptible kind: abject cowardice.

Though I don't want to start getting into what the definition of "is" is. haha

Seriously though, that isn't the problem. I stated that you could consensually enter into slavery but you cannot be a consensual slave. A Slave can beg even for her position of subserviance but that doesn't make her a consensual in her decisions, her only decision is to do or do not. And that is where the binds on contracts are degrading to a genuine Slave and in reality are destructive to a long term M/s relationship as they are founded on any premise other than "I submit to you, I will do you will" period.

Again, people have their personal attatchments to certain words but it doesn't make them right in technicality. If they want to use them, go for it. I can call a sub a kitchen table, I can eat off her, even toss a cover over her and we can live as if she is a table but does that actually make her a table? Has she genetically changed her biology to be made of wood or stone? No of course not, such is the argument of word usage. You can call a duck a duck or you can call a duck a chicken...doesn't change what it is, just changes your reaction to it.

< Message edited by afmvdp -- 8/9/2004 9:18:10 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 9:21:24 AM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		I've said before that many of my philosophical, sociological, and sexual predeterminations are rather similar to many Gorean concepts though I've never been one to submit under any label as there are always things that I just can't succumb to. Plus like you had mentioned before the fantasy types really are a laughable lot.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 9:26:52 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		I have seen that definition before. It is used as in the example sentence that I gave. As I said, I don't think it is particularly applicable to the way that abject is used in the definition of slave.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 9:34:24 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		You are smart to avoid the label unless you value the fellowship of other men (notice I did not say slaves) that label themselves similarly. Applying it to yourself in mixed company is pretty much like digging a hole for yourself in the minds of most folks out of which you must then pole-vault to respectability. Hardly worth the effort.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 9:59:51 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afmvdp

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

The problem is that there is no one definition of "consensual slave."



That's because that is an oxymoron and does not exist.


It might be an oxymoron, but that has no relation to it's existence. I have eaten far too many jumbo shrimp to deny they are real.

quote:


con·sen·su·al
Pronunciation: k&n-'sen-ch&-w&l a.
1: existing or made by mutual consent without any further act (as a writing)
2: involving or based on mutual consent <consensual sexual intercourse>

Slave
Pronunciation: slav n.
1: One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
2: One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence


Where is the contradiction between definition 2 of consensual and definition 1 of slave? In my eye, a slave is bound by her need to be owned.

Now, does she consent to that need? That question is a bit too intelectual for me to deal with right now, but feel free to discuss.

quote:


Thus if you are bound or adject to servitude than it cannot be consensual. Thereby it just doesn't work.


Why can't bondage be consensual? I am bound to my word, no one forces me to be, that is just how I am.

quote:


A Slave is owned by his/her Master, they are their property to do with as they please.


And that is your definition of a slave, not mine. As I have said before, in my usage, a consensual slave is one who feels a desire to be owned.

quote:


They do NOT have the power that you seem to be instilling into the process.


Why not?

quote:


I know it's cute and catchy to call it funfuck slavery but it's just not. It's submission, yes without a doubt but not Slavery. That is a much deeper level that does not need a contract, a referendum, a summary, or any other doctrine as they would be trivial and meaningless.


Umm...in my mind, not.

quote:


To look at it from a logic minds eye, as a Slave it is comparitive to the legal form of Power of attorney. Thereby if your Master alone owns the right to make the decisions for you and sign said contracts then the Master could then essentially write any contract he wants and sign it himself under full legality as they ALONE control your ability to make that decision.


We are talking about two different things. You are talking about the act of slavery, which, to you, is what makes a slave a slave. I am talking about the internal need to be owned, whihc, to me, is what makes a slave a slave.

quote:


To each their own, I understand your love of contracts. I should let you see some of my papers and written responses...but that is Dominant/submissive not Master/slave.


I would love to...post them.

quote:


/end of line


From Princess Bride to TRON...*wink*

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 10:05:32 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline 		Based upon SelfMorals&Opinion... Based upon Logic... Based upon Theory...

quote:

Judging: to place a value on something. Example: This ice cream is good.

Categorizing: to place somthing within a defined category. Example: This is ice cream, because it is frozen cream and other ingredients made in a specific way.

Generalizing: to make a broad statement about all things based on one thing: All ice cream is yummy! (All generalizations are false, even this one


The Judging You describe here is a transitive verb ie... consider or reckon
to form an opinion of somebody or something, especially after thought or consideration.

Categorizing is transitive - to put somebody or something into category and define accordingly

Generalizing is a verb that can be transitive, intransitive and transitive/intransitive:
express something general ... make sweeping statements ie: to state a supposed general truth about something on the basis of limited or incomplete evidence


I think that answers Your questions on what these words mean and whether I understand them...

quote:

Why are you so anti-generalization? They can be really helpful as long as it is understood that even the best generalization will have exceptions. Did you have some kind of horrible generalization trauma as a child? *wink*


and...

quote:

Why are you so anti-generalization?


I do not believe in generalizing because, well... as You have said Yourself...

quote:

(All generalizations are false, even this one.)


I do not think theres much else I can answer to that

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 10:25:06 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

The Judging You describe here is a transitive verb ie... consider or reckon
to form an opinion of somebody or something, especially after thought or consideration.

rest of definitions that pretty much agreed exactly with what I wrote snipped


Isn't that exactly what I said? Was that supposed to prove you knew the difference between them? If so, it didn't...it proved you could copy definitions off of a webpage.

quote:


I think that answers Your questions on what these words mean and whether I understand them...


Well, it seems we agree on the meaning of those three words...now to the questions. Do you think judging is wrong? Do you understand the difference between categorization and generalization?

quote:


quote:

Why are you so anti-generalization?


I do not believe in generalizing because, well... as You have said Yourself...

quote:

(All generalizations are false, even this one.)


I do not think theres much else I can answer to that


I think, perhaps, you are missing the irony and paradox in the logic of that quote:

premise 1 (explicit): All generalizations are false
premise 2 (implied): "All generalizations are false" is a generalization
therefore: Some generalizations are true.

This is why generalizations are useful...because not all are complete hogwash. Can you perhaps delve a bit deeper into why you are so anti-generalization?

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 10:47:51 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

If so, it didn't...it proved you could copy definitions off of a webpage.


It proved nothing... but your generalization has caused you to judge my response. If You wish to 'judge' my reply and myself... You have that freedom...(you can thank me another time)

quote:

Do you think judging is wrong?


I do not think it wrong... but it doesnt make it right.

quote:

I think, perhaps, you are missing the irony and paradox in the logic of that quote:


I believed all americans didnt get irony? Oh wait... am I judging?... noooooo... maybe, generalizing?....

and yes...lets delve... consensually of course.*climbs up on the couch*(see the irony there at least?)

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 1:45:32 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I do not think it wrong... but it doesnt make it right.


So what is in between wrong and right? There is nothing there, in my view. Just some silly word games.

quote:


I believed all americans didnt get irony? Oh wait... am I judging?... noooooo... maybe, generalizing?....


If you said "not getting irony is bad" you would be judging. Saying "all americans don't get irony" is generalizing. Words have meanings...use them, ignore them, or make up your own, just try for some measure of consistency.

quote:


and yes...lets delve... consensually of course.*climbs up on the couch*(see the irony there at least?)


Quite honestly I don't. Why on earth do you keep bringing up consent with regards to a message board. If you don't want to answer, you have a number of options open. You can ignore the question, politely refuse, not so politely refuse, and/or evade and bring up question of consent. I am sure there are even more options then that, but this conversation has given me little in the way of reward that would be worth going into any further detail.

I am out.

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 2:57:06 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		Oh dear god this is going to take a while. I'm gonna come back to this one. Quick notes though.

Taggard glad someone caught the Master Control Program joke. It's all down to a matter of interpretations, as I said I don't want to get down to a debate of the meaning of what is "is" though if it comes to it...haha. And I'd be more than happy to send you the files in private but posting them on an open board like this is just a tool for another HNG to come along and claim them as their own and find Joe DomsAlot using it a week later. Me and my little FilleViolentes put too long into these declarations to have them susceptable. Average lifeplan takes about 2 weeks to complete, gathering extensive knowledge about the person and formulating a long term and short term goal accordingly.

Angel think I can get that DNA relatively soon cause you are just too enjoyable. haha. Such resilience.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 4:17:41 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline


DNA...hmmmm.. and how would He like it delivered?

blood
saliva
hair folicle
or epithelial?

*giggles*


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/9/2004 4:44:49 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Applying it to yourself in mixed company is pretty much like digging a hole for yourself in the minds of most folks out of which you must then pole-vault to respectability.


Ted Knight: How do you measure yourself to other golfers?
Chevy Chase: By height.

I learned long ago that not measuring myself to other people and/or requiring
their approval made me much much happier in life.

There are a few exceptions, namely my children and my significant other.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/10/2004 12:59:10 AM   
WayHome


Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

People who want to be owned are slaves, people who want to serve without being owned are servants, people who want to be forced are subs and people who want to experience pain as pleasure are masochists.


Can't you just call a person who wants to be owned a table or a chair?


That would be an objectionist.


I object!
How dare you coopt this label from Real Obectionists

(OK, I'm not nearly as funny as Estring)

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/10/2004 2:21:03 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I am an enigma, wrapped in a riddle...

*wink*

Yours,
Taggard


Who am I quoting? Your Russian?

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/10/2004 2:28:47 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with Lady Beckett. (Not that I have too, and I would not call Leonidas "Delicious")

He is extremely honest. I hope this means something coming from me, but I would rather be told the truth than whatever PC white lie is current. Leonidas is truthful. (No, I have am not using the homosexual perspective. [Ask M'Lady how gay I am.])

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to WayHome)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/10/2004 2:31:37 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

WIITWD


M'Lady and I are going to ask for a book explaining all these acronyms.

That mean "What It Is That We Do" not "What Idiots In Toledo Would Do".

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Contracts(AGAIN*LOL*) - 8/10/2004 2:42:05 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		My two cents.

I am a slave. A submissive is one who submits with some limits. In a free society that applies to a slave as well. With $1.50 and describing the difference between a slave and sub you can get a free latte. (No, I don't know how much a latte cost other than "alotte".)

When I first started posting here I got the usual "you don't act like a 'real' slave." After explaining until I was blue in the face that I was not "their slave" nor does slave = so stupid you can't defend your own opinions, I met Lady Beckett. One thing she commanded is I call myself a "dedicated submissive". Only the word changed (I'm still me) but idiots stop telling me I'm not real.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
Profile   Post #: 80
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