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RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 9:38:57 AM   
trealeon


Posts: 180
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		It wasn't my intention to suggest a hierarchy (I can't speak to the original author's intentions though so maybe that's a valid view).

When I read it, I saw it more as a spectrum than a hierarchy. I also saw it as more of a confirmation that, there are a lot of different levels of sub and slave and that it can be hard to find your "niche" in such a vast community where everybody is different but maybe there might be a way to at least find where you are in the spectrum.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 11:48:24 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trealeon

....When I read it, I saw it more as a spectrum than a hierarchy. I also saw it as more of a confirmation that, there are a lot of different levels of sub and slave and that it can be hard to find your "niche" in such a vast community where everybody is different but maybe there might be a way to at least find where you are in the spectrum.

I have only given the list a cursory glance, but it looks like it could be helpful.
Like having more than one word to describe "snow", sometimes it's good to have different terminology to describe the different aspects of a general concept.

Is it hierarchical? I don't think it's necessary to see it that way.

I don't really see it as a hierarchy or a spectrum, because it seems to me that there is no straight line which all are laid out neatly upon; the line is more of a squiggle.
-------
(two points to show why I don't think of it as a continuum or spectrum or hierarchy, necessarily;)
You could have, I suppose, a TPE relationship between two people who live rather normal and sedate lives. For instance, the list describes the "Full-time live-in consensual slave" relationship as being, "...Not much different from the situation of the traditional housewife..."
And, on the other hand, I've met some submissives who have what I would consider some fairly extreme features to their relationships. They didn't refer to themselves as slaves, though.
Maybe that's part of why I'm so curious about the term.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 11/24/2008 11:49:51 AM >

(in reply to trealeon)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 12:05:21 PM   
Rover


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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

Is it hierarchical? I don't think it's necessary to see it that way.

 
I'll grant you that whether or not it's heirarchical depends upon how it's used.  But in my own experience, that's how it's been used.

quote:


I don't really see it as a hierarchy or a spectrum, because it seems to me that there is no straight line which all are laid out neatly upon; the line is more of a squiggle.


The level of submission increases as one passes from level one through nine.  No detours.  No squiggles.  It's not credible to claim otherwise.
 
To say nothing about the reliance upon terms such as "true" and "real".  Gag me with a Barbie doll head.
 
John

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(in reply to Jeptha)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 2:26:00 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

The level of submission increases as one passes from level one through nine. No detours. No squiggles. It's not credible to claim otherwise.

When I wrote that I was also thinking of treleon's "spectrum" that he posted earlier, not just the list of 9 things.
And - I will actually have to go back and read the whole thing before I comment in any detail.
But it seems to me differentiation of terms and meaning could be a useful thing at times. Otherwise, overworking too few terms renders them broad and fuzzy as to what one actually intends to mean in using them.
What if you could draw a circle and lay out the items listed at random points along the circle? (Western writing style renders that difficult, of course...)

I guess my question would be; do you think any attempt at differentiation is bad in and of itself, or do you just think it isn't well done in that specific example (the 9 things...)?

Given that most any attempts at differentiation are going to be awkward and constant works-in-progress.

Reminds me of the old "diagnostic and statistical manual" tool that mental health workers use; often refined, often faulty (sometimes majorly so), but also often useful.
quote:


To say nothing about the reliance upon terms such as "true" and "real". Gag me with a Barbie doll head.

I agree that the "true", "real" and "pseudo" descriptors sound too much like value judgements and should be abandoned. There's a lot of awkward phraseology, too, like;
"The outright non-submissive masochist or kinky sensualist"...

It's odd that I'm defending this flawed list which I've not even completely read yet, but it is because I do think, especially when first meeting someone and discussing these things, it would be useful to have an idea of the variety of ways that these ideas can be implemented: the variety of things to choose from is exactly the point, as opposed to the notions of any "one true way".

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 2:40:53 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

I guess my question would be; do you think any attempt at differentiation is bad in and of itself, or do you just think it isn't well done in that specific example (the 9 things...)?

 
Differentiation in and of itself is neither good nor bad.  It depends upon how it's used.  And in the case of this particular list, it has been my experience that it often used very poorly (ie: to portray certain levels of submission as superior to others). 
 
Case in point... it is not until level four that one becomes a "true" slave (clearly implying that levels one through three are not "true" slaves no matter what they may think of themselves), and not until level seven that one achieves the designation of a "real" slave (clearly implying that levels one through six are not "really" slaves no matter what they may think for themselves).
 
If that is not a heirarchy, I will wear a diaper to our next dungeon night.


quote:


I agree that the "true", "real" and "pseudo" descriptors sound too much like value judgements and should be abandoned.

 
Shouldn't that be a clue as to how this list is often used?
 
quote:


It's odd that I'm defending this flawed list which I've not even completely read yet, but it is because I do think, especially when first meeting someone and discussing these things, it would be useful to have an idea of the variety of ways that these ideas can be implemented: the variety of things to choose from is exactly the point, as opposed to the notions of any "one true way".


I believe you are defending this flawed list as having the theoretical capacity to add value.  Which is true.  I'm stating that as a practical matter, it is not often utilized in that manner.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/24/2008 2:50:45 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 2:42:41 PM   
trealeon


Posts: 180
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		Well I see what you mean about words like "true"and "real" used a little liberally and did give me a bit of a reflexive cringe when I read it (because I to don't think you should use those words so loosely). I copied and pasted it verbatim though without changing anything. However considering there are so many different varieties of submission and slave, it seemed a decent stab. I still don't view it as a way to "rank" a submissive or a slave and that thought never crossed my mind. Whether or not others have used it that way or if that was it's original intent, I'll never know.

I will agree however that there are a lot of flavors, way more that can be captured in any pithy summary or list. But considering the original poster wanted opinions, this is one of them. As someone said previously, it's an endless debate and in the end there is no straight answer. So in the myriad of opinions and debates, that too is something to consider.

(in reply to Jeptha)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 7:30:08 PM   
UmbraDomina


Posts: 491
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: SE Michigan
Status: offline 		reading through this, I just want to scream my slave can beat up your sub.     


(it's a joke)

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(in reply to trealeon)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 7:46:16 PM   
trealeon


Posts: 180
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		LOL at UmbraDomnia

My slave is 4'11 and 103lbs... I'm pretty sure you're right!

(in reply to UmbraDomina)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 7:57:58 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trealeon

LOL at UmbraDomnia

My slave is 4'11 and 103lbs... I'm pretty sure you're right!


It's not nice to enslave Oompaloompas. :(

On a more serious note, I avoid the twue sub/slave arguement entirely and just go with switch... that way no one call me out.


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 11/24/2008 7:59:10 PM >

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RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 8:56:18 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		To those that preach there is no definable difference or categorization difference between a slave and a submissive, I disagree from a social perspective.  In the end, all that matters between just two people is whether or not they’re happy. It doesn’t matter if they call themselves goldfish, zebras, vampires or Martians.  However when it comes to interfacing socially with others, I offer you this proverb I crafted: 

There once were two young gazelles.  They were sleek and fast and beautiful.  They loved to play games and lived a passionate and fulfilling life joining the gazelle community.  Once they joined in the gazelle community, some older meaner gazelles decided to trick them.  The older gazelles filed the happy young gazelles minds with misinformation.  They said that being happy was all that matted, no matter what they called themselves.  The young gazelles decided to call themselves lions.  They went out in the grass together and had role play, doing lion’s games and reporting back to their friends and debating about how lions “really and truly” lived. 

One day while strolling along the road, an older lion was walking along when suddenly two happy young gazelles came up and jumped into his mouth proclaiming, “look we are lions too”.  So he ate them. 

Moral: There are many successfully mutually mis-categorized relationships.  God bless them all but, don’t preach your ignorance to others or you will get them killed. 

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RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 9:05:22 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Would be a more applicable arguement if slaves went around eating submissives, or if anyone actually ever suffered bodily harm from calling themselves whatever.


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 11/24/2008 9:06:32 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/24/2008 9:22:30 PM   
rachel529


Posts: 197
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline 		i read this and thought "sounds good":
a submissive wants to be told what to do
a slave needs to do what they are told

no hierarchy, no true or fake, both are cool and happy and yay!
its really not hard to figure, i think.  thousands on here find a cathartic release in debating it though.  share and enjoy.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 1:36:39 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz
Would be a more applicable arguement if slaves went around eating submissives, or if anyone actually ever suffered bodily harm from calling themselves whatever.

I think your scenario would also work if D/s people, M/s people and kinksters all ate those unlike themselves. 

It may not be “bodily harm” but it can be emotionally painful and detrimental to your life and well-being.  Many people improperly categorize themselves.  Then they end up unhappy and in the wrong style relationship with the wrong type of person and they do “eat” each other up emotionally.  Which is very easy to do since M/s and D/s and kinky rituals & protocols look the same, sound the same and use the same gear even though the motives and rewards are different. 

A good slave would not be a good match for a good Dom anymore than a good Master would be a good match for a good submissive.  The motives and rewards systems do not mesh well enough to cross boundaries successfully or our BDSM community would never have given birth to the two different categories of lifestyles in the first place.

In my short time here, I have read hundreds, if not over a thousand complaint threads.  A great many of them are due to improper self categorization.  Imagine the slave that feels “strange” because her “Master” wants her to “service him” by beating him, tying him up, feminizing him and/or humiliating him.  He tells her she is not a “good slave” because she has trouble “obeying his orders”.  Come on, a switch is a switch.  If he would have just said so in the first place, he may never even come up on the radar in the first place. 

I have read about pregnant girls, people who relocate, people that quit their jobs and host of other real life traumas because someone thought they were getting into one thing and ended up in something entirely different and unsatisfactory.  It pisses me off to see the same community that says “there is no difference” and “don’t box me in” then do an about face and join together to lynch someone for being in a relationship that was a bad fit.  It was a bad fit because no one knew what the fuck they were or who they are in the first place.

It is rare that a complaint thread would be valid if the couple got together under the correct assumptions in the first place.  Whether someone is really poly and wants to add a partner or they are a switch at heart or a submissive that wants a voice in negotiating her terms or slave that doesn’t want a Master/Mistress to pussyfoot around and feels they should just take control and grab the reins…  its all about matching yourselves up.  We could probably make a list of the top 10 complaints and I could show it is almost all because of improper categorization.  The Dom that complains his “sub doesn’t obey” wouldn’t complain if he was a Master with an obedient slave.  The slave that complains it is all toil and "about him" would fair well in a negotiated D/s with a Dom .  Etc.

My parable is meant to reflect the damaged lives I have seen the purveyors of false information create.  They have been on the BDSM scene since it started.  These predators are the reason David Stein wrote the Safe, Sane and Consensual credo in the first place.  He was thinking of the predators in the gay community hiding real personality disorders behind leather lifestyle and preying on the uneducated, like “sadistic personality disorder” not the BDSM friendly kinky paraphilia of “sexual sadism”.  Whether it is a mismatch between healthy people, someone that is mentally disturbed or a potentially damaging predator, the harm is real. 

Lions do eat gazelles. . . I see the bodies strewn all over these forums and in real life.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 1:58:48 AM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		so long as I'm happy, I could not care less about what she calls herself.


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or old.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 2:09:23 AM   
sexisubi


Posts: 373
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

so long as I'm happy, I could not care less about what she calls herself.



Variation- You have mail,

Also, throw funny into the mix if you please could lol!

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 4:42:13 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

It may not be “bodily harm” but it can be emotionally painful and detrimental to your life and well-being.  Many people improperly categorize themselves.  Then they end up unhappy and in the wrong style relationship with the wrong type of person and they do “eat” each other up emotionally. 


Alternatively, those people have been fed unrealistic expectations about what it means to *be* a (fill in the blank) and are unhappy trying to live up to something that is unattainable beyond the covers of erotic fictional novels.

quote:


A good slave would not be a good match for a good Dom anymore than a good Master would be a good match for a good submissive.  The motives and rewards systems do not mesh well enough to cross boundaries successfully or our BDSM community would never have given birth to the two different categories of lifestyles in the first place.


First of all, what constitutes "good"?  Is it your definition of "good" or Masterdx's?  And whose definition of "slave" and "submissive" are you using?  I've met many unslavish slaves, and slavish submissives.  Haven't you?  Or aren't they "real"?

quote:


In my short time here, I have read hundreds, if not over a thousand complaint threads.  A great many of them are due to improper self categorization. 


If one is self-categorizing, who are you to say that it's improper?  Just because someone else thinks that you, or I, are improperly categorized as Dominants and should be categorized as submissives, does not make it true.  And you are not the latest incarnation of Jon Jacobs, divining for everyone else who is and who isn't categorized "correctly".
 
I gotta tell ya... if there's only one true way of defining a slave or submissive, you'll have a heck of a time trying to explain how that isn't "one true wayism".  It seems self-evident to me, but then, I'm just simple minded.

quote:


I have read about pregnant girls, people who relocate, people that quit their jobs and host of other real life traumas because someone thought they were getting into one thing and ended up in something entirely different and unsatisfactory.  It pisses me off to see the same community that says “there is no difference” and “don’t box me in” then do an about face and join together to lynch someone for being in a relationship that was a bad fit.  It was a bad fit because no one knew what the fuck they were or who they are in the first place.


First of all, stupidity and gullibility are a bad fit for any relationship (if those folks did not engage in their due diligence).  And second, there is no guarantee that any relationship, regardless of how you may categorize the partners, regardless of their lifestyle, will work out to everyone's satisfaction for all of eternity.  Think of that unrealistic expectation thing again.

quote:


It is rare that a complaint thread would be valid if the couple got together under the correct assumptions in the first place. 


I could take this more seriously if you had something statistical to back it up.  But really all you're doing is stating some wishful thinking as factual.  Contrary to your intention, if this is part of the foundation of your assertion, it actually detracts from the argument. 

quote:


My parable is meant to reflect the damaged lives I have seen the purveyors of false information create. 


You are selling false information yourself.  Pot, meet kettle.

quote:


They have been on the BDSM scene since it started.  These predators are the reason David Stein wrote the Safe, Sane and Consensual credo in the first place. 
He was thinking of the predators in the gay community hiding real personality disorders behind leather lifestyle and preying on the uneducated, like “sadistic personality disorder” not the BDSM friendly kinky paraphilia of “sexual sadism”.  Whether it is a mismatch between healthy people, someone that is mentally disturbed or a potentially damaging predator, the harm is real. 


Your comparison of lions and gazelles was better than comparing "miscategorized" roles with predators who have clinical disorders.  Seriously, how did you make that leap?  Are you insinuating that folks who "miscategorize" themselves are predators or clinically dysfunctional?  Or, alternatively, are you implying that by "properly categorizing" (to your satisfaction) themselves they are protected from these predators?  Or is this just a gratuitous statement intended to make your premise seem more important than it really is?

quote:


Lions do eat gazelles. . . I see the bodies strewn all over these forums and in real life.


Lions are eaten as well.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/25/2008 4:44:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 5:57:33 AM   
Lunalay


Posts: 243
Joined: 10/27/2008
Status: offline 		Eh...

Submissives come with rules and restrictions that can be pushed and then immediately made to stop.

Slaves may come with requests and put forth likes and dislikes, but their limits do not have to be respected.
Control in its entirety is given up.

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 6:00:59 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lunalay

Submissives come with rules and restrictions that can be pushed and then immediately made to stop.


Out of curiosity... how does that happen?

quote:


Slaves may come with requests and put forth likes and dislikes, but their limits do not have to be respected.
Control in its entirety is given up.


But if their limits aren't respected, they always have the option of walking out on the relationship.  So in truth, they give up control only until they no longer wish to give up control.  Isn't that the nature of consensual relationships?
 
John

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 6:06:30 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline
quote:


What do you consider the difference between a sub and a slave?


our "motivations".


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What do you consider the difference between a sub a... - 11/25/2008 6:37:25 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelesslyInvo

quote:


What do you consider the difference between a sub and a slave?


our "motivations".



Well, don't leave us hanging!  *LOL*  What are they, and how do they differ?
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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Profile   Post #: 60
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