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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 8:38:34 AM   
GddssBella


Posts: 343
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		G'morning all:


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Neither you, MsSonnet, or BlkTallFullfig has been able to think "outside the box." You can stay within the Madonna/Whore paradigm, or you can think past it.

Well, this insanity is traceable to monogamy, and not the Madonna - Whore complex. This is axiomatic, and its the whole point of finding fulfillment --- its not a Maddona-Whore divide, that's bullshit.


So, you all are missing the point entirely, IMO.

So, what's really funny, is watching you all get frustrated with the ill side effects and disease of monogamy, while searching for a what seems to me, a life-long monogamous relationship.


Got to love that free thinking is limited to your own opinion. Amazing really. Since when did this guy become the judge and jury for those seeking monogamy? While you espouse the advantages of polygamy, please take care not to tread so heavily on the beliefs of others. These definitions you make are limited to yourself alone and not the general experience of the women stated.

For the record, I believe whole heartedly in monogamy. I reserve my opinions on polygamy simply to suppress a flame war. My beliefs stem not from ethics, morals, religious cultivation or any other such dogma, but simply from preference. I refuse to split my attentions between significant others. I focus my emotions on one special individual. I believe the power exchange and dynamic is more intense. This works for me.

Whatever your mindset, please do not trample others'. Our values not only define us, they enrich us. For you to slam others for theirs, reflects poorly on you and no one else. Food for thought...


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...





Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!"

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 8:56:20 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Being poly doesn't have to be about having seconds or third places. It can be about realizing that people give you different things and that you can fulfill different parts of other people's lives.


Is that a copywrite infringement on the ETHICAL SLUT? Don't forget your footnotes and attributions!

I know my Mistress (who shall remain nameless) was impressed with your response to the discipline of "mental training." I would say that, "realizing that people give you different things and that you can fulfill different parts of other people's lives" is all about mental discipline and training.

Going there takes real strength of character. You have to accept other people as they are, recognize their needs, and realize that other people or another person do not exist "just for me" while also trusting them to love you respectfully. This endeavor takes work and involves risk. Its at odds with Prince Charming and the Cinderella Complex --- an ideal entrenched in our romantic culture --- but the reality is one and only one (for a lifetime, no less) relationship is not happily ever after.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 9:13:25 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GddssBella

Whatever your mindset, please do not trample others'. Our values not only define us, they enrich us. For you to slam others for theirs, reflects poorly on you and no one else. Food for thought...


I was a little over-the-top with the "disease of monogamy" thing, I agree. A less loaded term would have been "flaws."

You also wrote, "For the record, I believe whole heartedly in monogamy. I reserve my opinions on polygamy simply to suppress a flame war. My beliefs stem not from ethics, morals, religious cultivation or any other such dogma, but simply from preference. I refuse to split my attentions between significant others. I focus my emotions on one special individual. I believe the power exchange and dynamic is more intense. This works for me."

I'm curious, what is the longest amount of time you have spent with one person in a monogamous relationship?

When you say "I believe whole heartedly in monogamy," does this mean for a lifetime? If so, how close have you come to achieving this in RL?

For the record, I can state that I've been monogamous with someone in my life for over fifteen (15) years and I might add, we are still together.




(in reply to GddssBella)
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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 9:38:06 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		ok, skipped a few responses. And now i'm going to ask this.....

If Master wants a lady in public.... and a slut in the bedroom.....

Can I have a gentleman in public.... and a sex addict in the bedroom as well??????

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 9:49:08 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Sex in a D/s relationship? Imagine that.

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For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 10:08:07 AM   
MysticalPhoenix


Posts: 212
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Kelloggsville, Vanilla County MI
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Neither you, MsSonnet, or BlkTallFullfig has been able to think "outside the box." You can stay within the Madonna/Whore paradigm, or you can think past it.



And which box is that? I hope it's not the 'monogamous' box. If so, that's proof that I am thinking outside the box.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Its a mistake to think that with Men, its all about the sex. Next, you fail to consider or even address the inherent problems of lifelong monogamy. Believe it or not, these problems apply to men and women.



Sorry, I wouldn't know about the problems of lifelong monogamy, I'm not and have not been (in this lifetime) monogamous. I don't engage in monogamous relationships, nor do I engage in relationships with people who believe they are monogamous, but are in fact cheating on their partners (who also believe they are monogamous). I disapprove of that sort of behavior. I find it loathesome. It's dishonest, and dishonesty has no more place in polyamory than it does in monogamy.

Monogamy and fidelity are two entirely different things. Even Ethical Sluts (great book, btw, I don't agree with everything she writes, but...) expect fidelity from partners in closed poly groups (Triads, Quads, etc.). This is particularly crucial for disease protection.

Polyamory isn't for everyone. It's also not something you do. It's something you are.

Phoenix


_____________________________

---------------------------------------------------------
Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 11:19:27 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
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quote:

Being poly doesn't have to be about having seconds or third places. It can be about realizing that people give you different things and that you can fulfill different parts of other people's lives.

Tom is my husband and legally he'd be my first.

Fox is my slave and we live in a country where neither that relationship or multiple spouse is allowed so by those criteria he's be second. When I introduce him to vanillas I sometimes say "secondary partner" (something we agreed upon before I ever used the term)

But in my heart and mind neither is second or first. Of course we also all live together and operate as a family which seems rare even among poly people. Guess what? That means we all shop, do the trash, clean the house, pay the bills, all of that mundane stuff together too.

No one should try on a relationship style they do not feel comfortable with. That's not quite right because it reads like I'm saying "don't try new things" which is not what I mean. Bloody words getting in the way of communication!
I had hoped that my words would show my own limitations regarding trust/love/security in regards to poly relationships... It sounds fun and interesting, but I wouldn't feel that I am loved the way I want, and wouldn't feel secure, because in my mind, there would be a hierarchy for the men as well as for myself.

Your highlighted sentence pretty much covers that for me; I'm not comfortable with it. I've dated different people who fulfill different needs, but if the major needs aren't met, even when he's been willing to be monogamous while I seek others, it's not been acceptable for me, because it simply does not work in terms of what I think love and fair/just/kind treatment of one's partner is in my mind *(issues, lol)*. M

_____________________________

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 11:22:34 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

ok, skipped a few responses. And now i'm going to ask this.....

If Master wants a lady in public.... and a slut in the bedroom.....

Can I have a gentleman in public.... and a sex addict in the bedroom as well??????

Why not... that's exactly what some of us are.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 11:24:47 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		If only we could actually get Madonna and a few professional street walkers to weigh in ... we could push this thread further on it's path to disfunctionality.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 11:27:52 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		smiles.... thanks Padriag. There's still hope for me yet then. LOL

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 11:36:23 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Are you thinking of the singer Madonna, or the virgin mary(original Madonna)? It'd be a little hard to get the real madonna, maybe if we pray real hard. :)

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 11:44:24 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Are you thinking of the singer Madonna, or the virgin mary(original Madonna)? It'd be a little hard to get the real madonna, maybe if we pray real hard. :)


If we can get the Virgin Mary show up here, we can have a miracle, ala Fatima or something.


_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 12:04:44 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

MysticalPhoenix
The problem isn't the Madonna/Whore complex so much as the fact that people get into relationships and marry without considering sexual compatibility. This is complicated by the fact that most men tend to be very secretive about their bdsm interests, and not communicate them to their partner. Mix in the fact that most women don't consider sexual compatibility at all ("if you love him, he'll turn you on and satisfy you" is the mantra of female conditioning).
I can agree with everything you said, and still tell you that I believe there is a phenomenon happening, because some of the men wanting a limited liaison are single. Yes of course there probably are other factors at work (i.e.social ills), but I cannot help believing the Madonna/Whore complex is one major issue/contributing factor.
quote:

LuckyAlbatross
I don't see anything wrong with seeking different outlets for different things- some women are wonderful but simply not sexual at all. The problem comes when this is turned into an expectation, a standard of value, and a stereotype- that women are that simple to understand and deal with.
I don't see anything wrong with it either, except for me, it doesn't work to have 3 different men to serve all my desires. I've considered it, but have yet to find my comfort zone there.

GddssBella pretty much summarized my feelings on this subject which is not at all to say mine is the right way, it's just my current comfort zone... The reason I am not saying never, is because I've begun enjoying more than a few things I initially thought "I don't think so" to.
quote:

For the record, I believe whole heartedly in monogamy. My beliefs stem not from ethics, morals, religious cultivation or any other such dogma, but simply from preference. I refuse to split my attentions between significant others. I focus my emotions on one special individual. I believe the power exchange and dynamic is more intense. This works for me.

quote:

truesub4u
If Master wants a lady in public.... and a slut in the bedroom.....
Can I have a gentleman in public.... and a sex addict in the bedroom as well??????
You mean you don't have a gentleman in public and sex addict in the bedroom? What is wrong with that master of yours? LOL

quote:

plantlady64
I think the old double standard about guys having high mileage being macho and girls with high mileage being damaged goods has been around longer than any of us has.
I agree for some reason lots of men want pure or mostly un-touched wives and at the same time want her to have the experience of Linda Lovelace in pleasing them.

Master and I have an open relationship. While we do have several partners we have full contact with it's way different than cheating would be. I say if you are not one to stay happy with one partner you need to be up front about it.
We are in agreement; an open relationship is always preferable to one based on deception.

quote:

NeedToUseYou
Well, I'm probably going to flogged here, but I think most have differing concepts of the "Madonna/Whore" Complex.
I personally desire a woman that can have both qualities in one woman.
You won't get flogged for this by me, because that is exactly how I am. Most people who know me, don't know this side of me; not because it's shameful as much as it is my sexuality is mine and my partner's business.
quote:

Sounds to me like some are confusing guys that just are pigs and/or married to non-sexual women to men that want a madonna/whore. I don't blame a guy for cheating on his wife if she rejects him sexually, I would say they should just divorce though. The whole assumption here has been the men are all doing something wrong. It takes a woman for each of these guys to be with, and contrary to popular opinion most of the time the woman knows the man is married, or in a relationship. Alot of women target guys in relationships because they desire the kind of relationship they saw the man in
I'm not doing any such thing, and maybe you didn't pay attention to the whole initial post. I said that I have noticed some men want a limited/sexual liaison, wile looking for or already with a woman with whom they are miserable. No man has to cheat! I don't believe not phucking/getting spanked has ever killed anyone. A man makes a choice, and he ought to live with or change those choices according to his needs. The only problem I personally would have with it is involving me in lies that involve disrespectful behavior to my self or the other woman.

quote:

Padriag
I'm wired pretty much the same way, so no I don't personally relate to the whole Madonna/whore thing. I think part of that is because I don't view being kinky as being dirty...
Don't tell cloudboy this, he may think you're not a real man, though this lady thinks you rock!
quote:

I've seen what you describe in others, and as I said above, even in women. Some gals seem to have it in their head they have to be "bad" to be kinky which then means they can't be loved, presumably because that's only for "good" girls. Me... I love a good kinky girl who can carry a conversation about stuff I'm interested in
That is real unfortunate that people can think they don't deserve love because they enjoy sex...

quote:

]caitlyn
If only we could actually get Madonna and a few professional street walkers to weigh in ... we could push this thread further on it's path to disfunctionality
ROTFLL Thanks for lightening up this thread. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/18/2006 12:09:29 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MysticalPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 12:34:16 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		i am not for the madonna peronna i find it degrading and boring its fashion run amuk some of men happen to like class and someone who carries their self well with spice and fun mixed in call it the best of all worlds the mind is huge and if you have to find you need alot of people to full fill you then you have to really look inside cause you have fractal personality that needs to be centered

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
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RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 1:24:35 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MysticalPhoenix

And which box is that? I hope it's not the 'monogamous' box. If so, that's proof that I am thinking outside the box.

Sorry, I wouldn't know about the problems of lifelong monogamy, I'm not and have not been (in this lifetime) monogamous. I don't engage in monogamous relationships, nor do I engage in relationships with people who believe they are monogamous, but are in fact cheating on their partners (who also believe they are monogamous). I disapprove of that sort of behavior. I find it loathesome. It's dishonest, and dishonesty has no more place in polyamory than it does in monogamy.

Monogamy and fidelity are two entirely different things. Even Ethical Sluts (great book, btw, I don't agree with everything she writes, but...) expect fidelity from partners in closed poly groups (Triads, Quads, etc.). This is particularly crucial for disease protection.

Polyamory isn't for everyone. It's also not something you do. It's something you are.

Phoenix



The box is contained in the initial sentence: the Maddona-Whore paradigm. The OP impunes this phenomenon or male behavior to "male values," i.e. wanting the safety of a wife and the excitement of a disposable, hot femme-whore. I challenged that, saying no, its not about male values at all, it is about the only way of escaping the strictures of monogamy. The problem is not one of male values, its one of monogamy itself.

What men want is something different to be involved in. If such men were not bound by monogamy, then they could actually get "involved" with another partner --- hence smashing the Madonna-Whore divide altogether. So, to me, the Madonna - Whore paradigm exists because of monogamy and not b/c of "male values." This is my point.

"I wouldn't know about the problems of lifelong monogamy."

Yes you do, or at least you should if you've been reading this thread carefully. The genesis of the thread is why and what motivates married men to solicit other females, or in this case, DOMMES. The answer is the unrealistic expectation of lifelong monogamy. Rather than challenge this expectation in their marriages, men simply chose to get around it. This choice, given our societal values, is eminently logical. When pursuing the "getting around it" option, the targeted women are reduced to quick, disposable, and secret fuckbuddies or in the case of the Madonna-Whore paradigm, whores.

(in reply to MysticalPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 1:46:03 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Far far FAR too common. You can't read a dozen posts without tripping over some dom saying they want a "lady in public and a slut in bed."

Grrr. I'm a lot more complex than just that. I can be a lady and a whore and a slut and many other things ALL THE TIME. I won't box myself up into your accepted archaic lines just to give you the toy of your dreams.


seems we have a very different understanding of what "lady in public and a slut in bed" means

or as I phrase it.... "Lady in the Parlour and Whore in the Bedroom"

for me it you can't take the locations of Parlour and Bedroom in the literal sense. It is more to the point that the appropriate behaviors at the appropriate times. It's about being unihibited sexually in thought, feeling and express with myself. It's about beable to express these things at the appropriate times. Being the Lady is all the postive and constructive behaviors associated in building and growing the relatinship. This is only a quick and dirty understanding of what I mean, but I would add this.

I am very much a "Gentlemen in the Den and Slut in the Bed!" After all a double standard in this is not very useful to the relationships potential.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 1:48:42 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The box is contained in the initial sentence: the Maddona-Whore paradigm. The OP impunes this phenomenon or male behavior to "male values," i.e. wanting the safety of a wife and the excitement of a disposable, hot femme-whore. I challenged that, saying no, its not about male values at all, it is about the only way of escaping the strictures of monogamy. The problem is not one of male values, its one of monogamy itself.

What men want is something different to be involved in. If such men were not bound by monogamy, then they could actually get "involved" with another partner --- hence smashing the Madonna-Whore divide altogether. So, to me, the Madonna - Whore paradigm exists because of monogamy and not b/c of "male values."
I can't really believe that you think if we removed the monogamy clause all together that men would all be happy and satisfied with their 3 women...... Humans are never satisfied! It is very much a value system that keeps us from stepping on/hurting/killing the next person just to satisfy our wants/need for more; values coupled with good judgement is what separates us from wild animals. We all want something different sometimes, but since going around phucking anything that moves is not good for social order or our health, we try and find a comfortable relationship where we don't feel like anyone else is invading our property/space.

We definitely disagree on why the Madonna - Whore paradigm exists. I belive it happens with dissociated men who have issues with women/sexuality and feel the need to separate the respectable from the non respectable by cheating and lying to themselves as well as the women. No one here has indicated a problem with men/women who are not monogamous, but honest and open in their relationships.

You are wanting to impose yours as the superior way of looking at relationships but in being so closed to our views you are yourself being narrow while calling us "boxed." So puhleez, it's okay that you know everything about how relationships work/have a chance of survival, but your knowledge does me and the way I live no good.

FYI: I have definitely seen monogamy work, since my parents loved each other for over 20 years before my father passed away. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/18/2006 2:43:20 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 2:00:29 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: plantlady64

For me a girl who screws 10 strangers every day has way more purity and integrity than someone who cheats once a month.



I agree!! Bravo.... Lots of Sterotypes of Women and Men being flashed around... But it really is not what you do... but how you do it. The Integrity of person means much in my opinion!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/18/2006 2:32:41 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to plantlady64)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 2:15:11 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

ok, skipped a few responses. And now i'm going to ask this.....

If Master wants a lady in public.... and a slut in the bedroom.....

Can I have a gentleman in public.... and a sex addict in the bedroom as well??????


Why Not? My two girls have that!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? - 1/18/2006 2:23:44 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

KnightofMists
I am very much a "Gentlemen in the Den and Slut in the Bed!" After all a double standard in this is not very useful to the relationships potential.
That makes you the type women keep.
quote:

LATEXBABY64
i am not for the madonna peronna i find it degrading and boring its fashion run amuk some of men happen to like class and someone who carries their self well with spice and fun mixed in call it the best of all worlds
Thanks for your contribution, and I'm in agreement. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/18/2006 2:41:10 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 60
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