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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 7:35:33 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Now as for Term's point of view, I don't agree.  Humans haven't evolved since the introduction of agriculture.  We haven't evolved physically or mentally from paleolithic hunter/gatherers running Mammoths off of cliffs 65,000 years ago.  We're the same people. 



Actually Slaveboy, that is up for debate.  I was reading an article last week that reviewed a book discussing different theories that scientists are debating.  One of them is the idea that there has been "brain evolution" since then.  Psychological evolution, I think.  I don't recall the name of the book though, but I will try and look it up. 

ETA:  Amazon link to the book I refered to.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Have-Changed-Your-About/dp/0061686549/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236094661&sr=1-1

< Message edited by Aylee -- 3/3/2009 7:39:07 AM >

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 7:51:09 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Actually Slaveboy, that is up for debate.  I was reading an article last week that reviewed a book discussing different theories that scientists are debating.  One of them is the idea that there has been "brain evolution" since then.  Psychological evolution, I think.  I don't recall the name of the book though, but I will try and look it up. 

ETA:  Amazon link to the book I refered to.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Have-Changed-Your-About/dp/0061686549/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236094661&sr=1-1


This link is to a book about people's perogative to change their mind.  I don't see what that has to do with evolution, but I haven't read it.  Everything I've ever read or heard about paleolithic humans says we are physically and mentally the same.  We just have developed our technology beyond flint knapping.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 7:52:47 AM   
Lashra


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Status: offline 		As far as I am concerned, ALL women and men deserve and should have equal rights and standing in society. Women have held a variety of roles in history (as did many men) from hunters to gatherers to farmers to leaders of countries. But for some idiotic reason some societies want to shove women into the lesser role as if we were lesser people. That makes NO sense whatsoever, except to those to whom power means more than a stable, healthy society and way of life.

Would I want a woman President? You bet I would, depending upon who the woman was. As we are all different, kind of like snowflakes, no two of us are alike.

Just my 2 cents.
~Lashra


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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 7:59:48 AM   
Termyn8or


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Interesting. Of course I did not expect total agreement. What some have mentioned I would consider to be exceptions, but as in anything there may have been more exceptions than not.

I had completely disregarded, for example, the males' propensity for ritualism and so forth. Someone indeed had to watch hearth and home wihle he went about walking on hot coals, climbing down in a hole with the peyote buttons and who knows what else. Even sticking with the root of the OP, sometimes they no doubt went on the hunt for days on end, leaving the Women to take care of everything else. Hopefully they came back with something good.

In a way I can''t say that Women had it any easier, even in the type of scenario I described, where he might just drag the carcass in and she has to cook it. I also did not address who did all the canning and preserving, essentially producing staples for the winter.

Perhaps it is both genders that have changed. Of course that may infer that we are not as able as our ancestors. How many of us could survive in the past ? These days you go hunting with a GPS, cellphone, rifle with a scope, cans of beans and salted meat, charcoal, a radio, the list goes on. Back then not much of this existed. Going on a hunt was not recreational, at least not in the way we see it now.

I did not address animals because it is a different subject, though I am aware that some species' do mate for life, and those unions are generally not male dominated. However they did seem to be throughout human history.

In an attempt to explore the reasons therefor, I could've just read taxtbooks, but those are generally the opinions of one person, albeit possibly more supported by facts, or assumed facts. But I prefer to draw on diversity, getting opinions from the many, with varying levels of background on the subject as well as different personal expererience upon which to draw. So far so good.

But then I guess that's why I'm here. :-)

I'll be baaack.

T

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:05:41 AM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		well it isn't a heightened propensity for ritualism in males, in fact the Sepik of new guinea acknowledge that women are FAR more spiritually powerful than they are which is the primary reason why they attempt to keep women in a lower status.
the sepik have a legend that long, long ago, women held all the ceremonial objects. a group of men decided they wanted to be in control and used aggression and fear to steal what rightfully belonged to the women. their insistence on gender-based dominance is an attempt to keep women from retaking their rightful place.
the sepik have a very interesting idea on that.

most cultures consider women VERY spiritually powerful because of the ability of childbirth. this is common from the maya to the aztec to the north american natives to africans, and all sorts of places in between. women seek out ritual with the same frequency as men, except in societies where they are literally forbidden to do so, by penalty of death.
in many societies, males maintain their power through blatant displays of a loss of belief in the right to life of their female counterparts.

that's not real dominance, at all. =p

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:07:40 AM   
RainydayNE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

What some have mentioned I would consider to be exceptions,


and honestly, this makes no sense at all.
if the anthropological record shows that in the vast majority of socities women tended to the work that REALLY coalesced the civilization (and are generally considered the foundation of it), how can the entirely anthropological record be an "exception"? =p
if the majority of animal species rely on a single mother, a partnership between male and female, or a matriarchy, how can that be an exception? =p

don't grasp at straws.

not to mention, there was no "canning" or anything like it in paleolithic hunter-gatherer societies. they would store staple foods like seeds, nuts, and roots for use over the winter when the animals migrated away.
it sounds like you're basing your theory on 18th century pioneer life, but starting there ignores the MILLENIA that preceded that.


< Message edited by RainydayNE -- 3/3/2009 8:10:57 AM >

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:12:48 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Actually Slaveboy, that is up for debate.  I was reading an article last week that reviewed a book discussing different theories that scientists are debating.  One of them is the idea that there has been "brain evolution" since then.  Psychological evolution, I think.  I don't recall the name of the book though, but I will try and look it up. 

ETA:  Amazon link to the book I refered to.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Have-Changed-Your-About/dp/0061686549/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236094661&sr=1-1


This link is to a book about people's perogative to change their mind.  I don't see what that has to do with evolution, but I haven't read it.  Everything I've ever read or heard about paleolithic humans says we are physically and mentally the same.  We just have developed our technology beyond flint knapping.


Slaveboy,

If I recall the article correctly, (I have not read the book, BTW) it discusses how different scientists have changed their beliefs in theories.  Such as global warming.  One of the theories had to do with human evolution, especially with regard to the brain. 

It sounded as though the idea that humans have not evolved is not cut and dried, and is in fact up for debate in the scientific communities.  That while the idea that humans had not evolved was held true for a very long time, it no longer is by all the researchers in that area.  How they have come to this theory, I have no idea.  I am just throwing it out there as something that is no longer held as a constant. 

ETA:

Sharon Begley in "Newsweek" identifies only a couple, including this from Stephen Pinker:

"Steven Pinker, one of evo-psych's most prominent popularizers, now admits that many human genes are changing more quickly than anyone imagined. If genes that affect brain function and therefore behavior are also evolving quickly, then we do not have the Stone Age brains that evo-psych supposes, and the field 'may have to reconsider the simplifying assumption that biological evolution was pretty much over' 50,000 years ago, Pinker says."



< Message edited by Aylee -- 3/3/2009 8:15:12 AM >

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:13:01 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
In an attempt to explore the reasons therefor, I could've just read taxtbooks, but those are generally the opinions of one person, albeit possibly more supported by facts, or assumed facts.


"Possibly"?!

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:14:39 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Yes possibly kit. Remember when the Earth was flat ?

T

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:38:25 AM   
StrangerThan


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Status: offline 		I don't see it as a gender thing. I see it as a personality thing. Traditional roles existed because it was the most efficient way to survive. I daresay that if civilization as we know it ended today, it wouldn't take long for things to return to those traditional roles. When it comes to working for someone, I prefer working for a woman. There are a lot fewer testosterone related issues. I can do my work, and go on about life. I like it that way. I don't necessarily prefer working with a bunch of women though. That tendency for all of them to get on the same cycle isn't a good thing. Lol.

That being said. I like being a man. Women have more advantages in nature in some respects. They generally live longer, and have less health problems. But damn, I can piss anywhere and even write my name in the snow without all sorts of weird gyrations.  I never really thought much about roles until the first time I watched a woman put on panty hose. I nearly got down on my knees right there and said a fervent prayer of thanks.

Other than that, the woman in your life is your partner, your friend, your lover, your everything, and if she isn't, you're missing out. It makes the deliniation of roles somewhat vague.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:39:24 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Remember when the Earth was flat ?



No.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:43:18 AM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		i think tradition and nature are different.
women naturally tend to want to form groups, men tend to naturally want to get up and move. (this is even reflected in modern teaching strategies that take into account natural propensities of the sexes in the classroom)
but when i see "traditionial roles," i think "man king, woman servant," which has been tradition as we know it, and that is not really efficient.
the way in which animals survive in nature is efficient, but "tradition" as we know it is not.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 8:53:47 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Now my base assertion is that Men and Women cannot be thought of as equal because we are essentially different creatures.


Nope. Wrong. In every respect: legally, morally, economically, sexually, scientifically.

Your mode of thought is the basis for centuries of slavery and discrimination. You are part of the problem, and you perpetuate the problem, and quite frankly I've seen the results of your thinking and the laws and social injustice that spring from it. That's why I am fully comfortable when I say that you, and other male supremacists, are just plain evil.

Your second-ditch argument that women are "just different", which is why they should be ruled and dominated by men, is repellent and vile.

When the last man who thinks like you is dead, the world will be a better place.

Have a nice day, and please feel free to take up smoking.


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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 9:41:00 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		OK, I expected something like that eventually. Like when a number of people look at a picture, they see what they are looking for, that is human nature. I thought it clear that I was not out to assert male superiority in any way, and pointed out that the relationship was symbiotic. The fact is that Men and Women simply cannot survive without one another. Therefore neither has any inherent power over the other.

Will I admit to having ideas of male supremacy, yes, in certain things. However I also realize that things have changed. I will also admit that for at least decades males have enjoyed a form of supremacy, and also that it is probably largely undeserved. A good example would probably be the nation of Islam.

Let me put it this way, Women did not gain sufferage in this country by doing their sewing and going to the mailbox to get a letter that read "You can vote now". They DID something. As such I envision something similar happening in the Moslem sphere of influence one of these days. Put their balls to the bricks and they will acquiesce. Actually the US wasn't even the first country in which Women were allowed to vote, and some people were quite unaware of that. Why ?

Because the old boy network still survives. Am I for that ? Hell no. I am against anything that bequeaths any undeserved power or influence upon anyone.

So don't take personally my quest to make a bit of sense as to WHY this happened. Maybe, as you say, I am part of the problem. Maybe I am not. To know you would just about have to be in a relationship with me and see how it goes. I may be dominant in nature, but not domineering. There is a difference. It also may be possible that I am one of the very few who think in what I described as "manly ways". I can buld  a house, and of course that requires planning. But if I say that without disclaiming that I did not say that a Woman could not do that, some will take it as I did say that.

As far as preferring to work for a Man, that can almost be considered a personal preference. But it is my future and my fortune at stake. Perhaps I am wrong, but this preference has more to do with societal structure than any innate superiority.

If any exists.

Well, I have to drag my knuckles in to work here in a minute so I'll leave you with that. I knew someone would read the OP that way, but I tried not to have that effect. I am trying to explore the "why" in a truly meaningful way.

T

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 10:06:07 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I thought it clear that I was not out to assert male superiority in any way, and pointed out that the relationship was symbiotic. The fact is that Men and Women simply cannot survive without one another. Therefore neither has any inherent power over the other.


You can try to take the apologist tone all you like, but when your post goes on to say that you would not want a female President and you cannot work under a female boss because of how women are "different", the duplicity of your position is revealed. You ARE a male supremacist, you are just a male supremacist of the apologist variety; you're the male supremacist equivalent to those people who argued that Segregation was a good policy because blacks and whites could be "separate but equal" and everything would be perfectly fair and even-Steven if they would just sit at the back of the bus and drink from the Coloured drinking fountain.

The power you assign to women is the wonderfully "different" and "natural" power of being subservient and inferior to men. Not any kind of legitimate equality which includes equal access to jobs and opportunities, equal access to positions of power in the workplace or in politics, or equal power in any of the institutions that control resources and set policy for the masses. Your position, in other words, is nothing more or less than a smarmy and underhanded advocacy of universal, non-consensual slavery for women.

There is no "different but equal", there is no "separate but equal". These apologist creeds are simply used to mask inequality that people want to continue to see institutionalized. As soon as people push for real equality, the iron fist behind the velvet glove is revealed, and the police appear with billy clubs and attack dogs to assault young blacks who try to sit down at a lunch counter and order a milk shake.


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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 10:26:22 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Now my base assertion is that Men and Women cannot be thought of as equal because we are essentially different creatures.


Nope. Wrong. In every respect: legally, morally, economically, sexually, scientifically.


So the studies concerning the different ways that males and females think are not valid? The biological differences, created by nature, are not there so that one gender can do a biological directive better than the other?

quote:


Your mode of thought is the basis for centuries of slavery and discrimination. You are part of the problem, and you perpetuate the problem, and quite frankly I've seen the results of your thinking and the laws and social injustice that spring from it. That's why I am fully comfortable when I say that you, and other male supremacists, are just plain evil.


Actually it is patriarchy that he is describing, not male supremacy. Maybe some more reading and studying may assist you in discerning the differences.

quote:


Your second-ditch argument that women are "just different", which is why they should be ruled and dominated by men, is repellent and vile.


Just because a male has a dick does not by default put him in a position of power or leadership, but thousands of years of evolution does give him the tools to be more dominant. HBE explains some of this changes, since the industrial revolution, and as long as technology continues to advance I see more of a egalitarian social evolution occurring. Hopefully nothing will switch technology off after this occurs though.


quote:


When the last man who thinks like you is dead, the world will be a better place.

Have a nice day, and please feel free to take up smoking.



Utopia rarely exist on the extreme of one side or the other. Males and females are required for the continuation of the species, and in general are built differently to accomplish those tasks. I know it is not very PC, and I know the scientific community for the last 30 years has been very concerned about being PC, but you can still find some objective studies out there.

If a female exhibits the required skills and qualities to lead, then she should. If a male does not exhibit the required skills and qualities to lead, then he should not.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 10:30:08 AM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		males have tools for physical dominance via agression, size, and strenght, not necessarily social dominance, i.e. leadership, and decision-making, etc.
they've created some sort of dominance by discounting the work that women do. many of your points have already been answered.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 10:46:38 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE
males have tools for physical dominance via agression, size, and strenght, not necessarily social dominance, i.e. leadership, and decision-making, etc.
they've created some sort of dominance by discounting the work that women do. many of your points have already been answered.


Girls are not raised to be physically strong. They have only started to take part in competitive sports in large numbers since the 1920s or so: even then, girls are encouraged to participate in 'pretty' sports whilst guys go and brutalise each other on the football field.

Had women inherited the centuries of brutal training that is behind many men, I am convinced this much incensed physical superiority of man over woman would be much less. And I still want to see a scrawny five feet tall guy next to a female athlete who's six feet and weighs 220 pounds on a ring (you know, like a Bulgarian javelin thrower), and see who has the tools for dominance  . 

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 10:56:00 AM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		we do know that testosterone is responsible for greater size and muscle mass, however, i totally agree with your point. women seem "weaker" as a whole because they're generally raised that way, and i think the perceived weakness would be greatly diminished if they were encouraged to do more physical things.
i've beat up plenty of boys in my day to know that i can do it if i have to. =p  but, realistically speaking, there is a limit.
in unarmed combat (that sounds so napoleon dynamite =p), my Dom would destroy me, i'm absolutely sure. he's very big, very strong (which is oh so gnarly) and i wouldn't even try to compete there. with someone closer to my size and strength, the odds would be a bit more balanced, i think.
and i know that i am relatively strong for my size, and i don't shun physical activity, but then again, i was raised not to. =p

i don't personally have any problem with the idea of men being stronger. they usually just ARE, again, because of testosterone. but, i remember saying this in an email, but the stronger you are, the faster you can chop logs to build a lodge, and the sooner you can stop living out in the open elements.
acknowleding that they tend to be stronger doesn't give any credence to any idea of male supremacy/dominance being viable and "naturally mandated." women have intellectual skills that make them better suited for other jobs.  estrogen tends to be responsible for fat storage, which is what makes us more likely to survive without food. =p

each one has pros and cons.

< Message edited by RainydayNE -- 3/3/2009 10:59:06 AM >

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/3/2009 10:58:32 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I wish I had been taught how to fight when I was little; it would have been useful on more than one occasion  .

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