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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/11/2009 8:24:47 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		RainydayNE

If you kept reading- the following references were cited:
Language performance is generally better among females than among males, even in children
as young as 2–3 years (Bornstein, Haynes, Painter, & Genevro, 2000; Dionne, Dale, Boivin,
& Plomin, 2003). Girls begin talking earlier (Murray, Johnson, & Peters, 1990), acquire
vocabulary faster (Roulstone, Loader, & Northstone, 2002), and show more spontaneous
language (Bauer, Goldfield, & Reznick, 2002; Lutchmaya, Baron-Cohen, & Raggatt, 2002;
Morisset, 1995). Although small, female advantages for verbal and written language persist
through the school years (Lynn, 1992; Mann, Sasanuma, Sakuma, & Masaki, 1990; Martin &
Hoover, 1987; Undheim & Nordvik, 1992) and into adulthood (Parsons, Rizzo, van der Zaag,
McGee, & Buckwalter, 2005).

I would point out that language differences as early as two years would likely have a biological rather than a societal influence.

On a personal note- I have a lot of trouble with the idea of "superiority" of one sex over the other outside the context of bedroom play.  While I agree with Term that men and women are different as are an apple and an orange, I fail to see why one fruit is superior to the other.  Without both sexes, the species dies out.  Nature also thought that there should be equality between the sexes given that the number of men and women is roughly equal- barring silly cultures killing girl children (yuck!!)  There are plenty of other species where the numbers of the sexes are highly skewed.

Sam

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/11/2009 8:31:46 PM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		i don't dispute the fact that males and females are different and rightfully so. i just think that in making the INITIAL statement that the data was derived from kids 9-15 years kind of sets it up to be about nurture, automatically.
the references cited point out things that people already know, but they don't necessarily pertain to the experiement, do they? an experiment testing older kids would tell less about nature and more about nurture, regardless of what we may understand about differences that are apparent at early, early ages.
and i already said that kids realize their sex around the age of 2, not aruging about that.

anyway, as far as the personal note goes, that's essentially how i feel about it. i just don't believe in gender based superiority, and there are all sorts of really flimsy ways people go about "proving," one way or the other, but eh... i just don't believe in it.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/11/2009 9:07:35 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Hi RainydayNE

I think we're pretty much on the same page.  The nature/nurture debate has been going on forever and I suspect we can both agree that both nature and nurture shape who we are as adults.  (Relative contributions can be debated.)  I just get aggravated with the nonsensical idea that human babies are born as a tabla rasa (blank slate).  We're born with a lot of structure, and given the impact hormones such as testosterone have on both male and female development, I think it's pretty clear that some of the differences in boys and girls are already in place by the time we come out of the womb.

Sam

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 8:33:16 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
In this situation, there is no formula like Enfamil or anything so there is one constant, A recently pregnant Mother would not be the best choice to go out and plow a field. Therefore she is faced with certain set of problems, many of which are, or at least seem imminent. In the meantime the Man is out plowing the field


Other people have already brought up that in those times, other women from the village, not her man, would probably be the ones to fill in for a heavily pregnant woman. A "recently pregnant" (ie. 1st trimester) woman usually doesn't have any physical restrictions, though, so would probably be able to keep plowing! As she goes through the second trimester, she's probably going to develop more restrictions along the way.

I agree that on average, there are several differences between men and women. I know a couple of Samoan women who are bigger and stronger than most men (but not usually bigger or stronger than their male relatives or SO). In general, men are a lot physically stronger than women, and so *tend* to be more suited to a few particular jobs. I don't see any reason to restrict those jobs to men, though, if a woman is capable of and wants to perform them. As most manual-labour type jobs are being automated, it is less of a factor, since operating most machinery (with the exception of jackhammers, etc.) doesn't require much muscle.

Men in general outperform women in general in Mathematics and various scientific disciplines, but I think that a large factor in that was cultural pressure, and there are a lot of specific women who have done very well in those fields.
Rainyday, a lot of guys will let a woman hit them with little or no retaliation.

I know a lot of women who do martial arts who could legitimately beat a man who doesn't have any training in how to fight, but most women who do a competitive sparring bout with a man of an equivalent level are at a strong disadvantage due to less strength and mass. Sometimes it works to their advantage (ie. in certain throws), but not usually.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 11:33:36 AM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		actually, in my education classes, we've been discussing whether males really DO outperform females in math and science. males tend to outperform on standardized tests like SAT/ACT, while females tend to maintain higher GPAs overall, INCLUDING math and science. males don't necessarily out perform girls in math and science, they receive more encouragement to pursue those fields than female students do, and less encouragement to pursue fields like language and teaching. the fact that more men enter these fields doesn't necessarily prove that they outperform women, especially since most educational studies show that they really don't.

there are many speculative reasons for why this is, and one idea is that the classroom is more female-oriented, whereas the standardized testing environment is more male-oriented. female students tend not to want to move around as much as male students. sitting for long periods in a class can be frustrating for males and cause them to act out and lose focus (most ADD/ADHD patients happen to be male, i think most ADD/ADHD is misdiagnosis, not actual illness). doing a test in a relatively short time frame can be frustrating for females and cause them to perform more poorly than they would in a class.

and yes, i know that old "you can't hit a girl" rule, but i'm talking about beating up boys in an actual FIGHT. i don't hit boys just to hit them because i believe that if a girl hits a guy he should be able to hit back at least once. =p

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 2:09:27 PM   
Termyn8or


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I would suggest a visit to the "Inhereted anger" thread. You might find a similar debate brewing there, and my response is easy to find, at least for now before the thread becomes another monster.

The OP's question there deals with anger management, but specifically asks if such a thing is inhereted. A different debate for sure, but I think some of the points raised are going to be similar. I would copy my response here but I think that might be in violation of TOS.

Given the responses here, I have reevavluated my opinion on this issue.Although my base opinion remains, I will now stipulate that there are enough exceptions to the "rule" that it cannot really be called a "rule".

In the distant future, if they dig up your skeleton they will not only be able to determine your race, but also gender, and not by counting ribs. On the surface that would seem to prove my original assertions, but that is post hoc ergo propter hoc. I have learned that proof is not always proof.

I deal with this at work. Does this prove that or does it not ? And sometimes due to the complexity of the problem I have learned the hard way. Meantime all the company wants to know is which part is bad. And they don't mean which board is bad, they mean which fifteen cent component is bad, that is how we make money.

As complex as electronics has gotten, human nature surpasses it in that respect by orders of magnitude. I conclude that we will never have all the answers, but that is not to say that there is anything wrong with discussing it. People have brought in all sort of different perspectives, even dimensions on this issue. I think that a good thing.

Just my thoughts on a lazy Wed....err Thursday when I decided to play hooky from work.

Be well and try to be good. We don't want the hammer to come down as it has on some of my other threads.

In closing, I hope people can understand where my initial perspective came from. Women were not allowed to work in my [Paternal] family. If your Wife worked you were dogmeant, if she HAD to work you were dogshit. The Man makes the money, the Woman spends it, wisely of course. My Aunt married an author, and they do not get a steady paycheck sometimes. He would write articles among other things and sometimes they were not bought. He was dogshit in their eyes, but she loved him until his death. The family has never failed to have a 50th wedding aniversary in any generation since they got to this country. So perhaps you can understand why I came to the conclusions to which I came.

And the Wives in this family were never oppressed in any way to my knowledge. In fact Women held much of the authority. It was the Man's job to keep her happy. Treat her right and provide enough money. That's the way it was. Ironically of course with economic changes that placed a greater burden on the Man, but if you thought it was bad to have your Wife work, try whining about it. That was intolerable. The general attitude was that failure is intolerable really. After one too many times there is no bailout, and in this context that means you sit in jail. No gifts of money, no inheritance for the Grandkids, no alot of things.

Since I played hooky, perhaps this is a good day to start a thread just to explain my background, that others might understand me better. Not really for any intrinsic value that may have, but when I make certain claims, just to know where they came from, in other words, WHY ?

T

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 6:52:40 PM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		why call them exceptions at all, then? if there are so many of them, that the rule can not be called a rule, then that means there's something wrong with the rule.
the rule should be discarded rather than calling things exceptions when they aren't exceptions. =p
that's how theories are tested and validated (or not validated). =p

my background is small town rural. growing up female, you see alot of really hilarious hypocrisy that makes you question the status quo. you see guys claiming to rule the roost when they can't even make their own breakfast or wash their clothes. you see women who are regarded as "less than" doing real physical work just like the boys -- and if you grow up in the country, you don't just see it done, you do it yourself. you go to school, find a snake on the sidewalk, and then laugh as the boys you show it to run away. =p you beat up one of them because he tells you you're made of poo because you're brown. you end up tutoring boys in math class and helping them figure out how to do their labs in science. you quickly realise that there are very few differences between you and them that actually matter. =p

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 9:11:03 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Yep this is what society teaches us. There are no significant differences. Luckily nature does not know this.

Studies that show that females are better at multi tasking than males. Males are better at focusing on a single task. Spatial awareness and direction better in males. Social and language skills better in females. The studies are there, with a lot to back them up, if you truly care to look. Nature develops the sexes within a species to perform certain functions for that species, and it does this for a reason.

My family is from rural area, and I have no clue about this "females are worth less" attitude you speak about. I believe it is a cultural thing, and depends upon the area.

There are still many things we do not know, and things like Human Behavioral Evolution theory is one. Procreation strategies seem to play a large role in many things, as it does with many mammals.

If it makes you feel any better, males are the more disposable gender. Our tendencies for aggression and violent behavior, because of testosterone and primal sexual instincts, lead us to things like war where more males die than females. this is okay though as much fewer males are needed than females, to keep the species going.




quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

you quickly realise that there are very few differences between you and them that actually matter. =p



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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 9:18:09 PM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		um yeah.
i didn't say there were no significant differences. i said there were very few that actually matter. =p
everything you're saying as if you're introducing some new medicine is stuff that's been dealt with already =p go back and read the rest of the thread.

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 9:22:16 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		uh yeah. I have read the entire thread. Your comments lead me to believe that you have not, and/or you just do not understand it.

You do not believe that multi tasking, along with superior language and social skills is a significant difference? You realize that school teachers used to be exclusively male right? Ever wonder why females excel in that area? These differences are what make us tick, and if we understand them better, we understand each other better.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

um yeah.
i didn't say there were no significant differences. i said there were very few that actually matter. =p
everything you're saying as if you're introducing some new medicine is stuff that's been dealt with already =p go back and read the rest of the thread.



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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 9:24:46 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Spatial awareness and direction better in males.

But unlike males, we can ask for directions
Sorry, couldn't resist


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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 9:32:57 PM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		i've been blabbering in this thread since it started =p
those things DO matter, but they don't matter as far was what the OP of this thread was attempting to state, that men are in charge for a particular reason.
the differences don't automatically denote which of us is "better" than the other
both are necessary, neither is superior.

THAT is what i meant by things that don't really matter.
just because i may have some tendency towards grasping language and interpersonal and nonverbal communication doesn't make me superior to a male, and just because a male is bigger and stronger doesnt make him superior to me.

from the 1920s onward, women were historically the teachers, not men. teaching became a "woman's job." 
today women still outnumber men in elementary school, but men begin to take over in higher level, more prestigious schools.
if elementary teaching jobs paid better, more men would probably do them, there are lots of them who would LIKE to, but they don't becaue they have the pressure of being "successful." 

< Message edited by RainydayNE -- 3/12/2009 9:35:38 PM >

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 9:33:47 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Wyld, now there is a perfect example. Something that is stereotypical that is probably no longer valid, or I wish so.

See years ago I was headed north to my hoime from a bar and got a ticket quite a way south from the bar. That is one male tendency you will not see in me, although I do prefer to buy a map, because some people's directions are simply wrong, and sometimes they are hard to understand.

Kill me.

LOL

T

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 10:34:26 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		You are able to do that from the kitchen, while barefoot and pregnant?


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Spatial awareness and direction better in males.

But unlike males, we can ask for directions
Sorry, couldn't resist



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/12/2009 11:15:24 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

You are able to do that from the kitchen, while barefoot and pregnant?

Touche....
and lol!


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Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/13/2009 6:03:31 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I am glad you took it with the intent it was written in. Take care.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

You are able to do that from the kitchen, while barefoot and pregnant?

Touche....
and lol!



_____________________________

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/13/2009 8:59:25 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Rainy, I have capitulated on some points already, but I hadn't really realized that maybe I had given you the wrong impression.

I have said it before but not sure if I have in this thread, but plug this fact into the equation and see where you come out.

A true leader is actually a servant. He or she thinks such and acts accordingly, accepting really more responsibility than any glory is worth.

If given authority over others, do you gloat, or do you see it as a responsibility ? Very few people see this aspect of it of course because there are so few true leaders today. Elect me President and right after the inauguration you will see me in a Tshirt and some baggy Dockers, and tennis shoes of course, the nine dollar kind because I find them the most comfortable for my feet.

At work there has been no official conferment of authority to me, but people ask me what to do, I tell them what to do and then they do it. What do you call that ? One of the guys called me Sir the other day to which I replied "Don't call me Sir, it's like putting an elevator in an outhouse". I actually would rather not have any glory at all, no matter how minor.

I am stuck with the responsibility though, when I make a mistake, and I do, I must own up to it, try to find the reason and prevent it in the future. Imagine being in that position in light of the fact that I am supposed to be THE expert. Needless to say, I don't find it very glorious at all. '

On the other side, I wouldn't dress up to meet the President, and I talk to my boss like a regular person. I bust his balls occasionally. He said he had to go shit, I said "That explains a few things, you've been walking around full of shit !".

So all this exhaltation, assumption of superiority, I reject. I see it as false respect. I don't like anything false, damn, the world is hard enough to deal with as it is.

Add to that the fact I see clearly : What is a leader with nobody to lead ?

I never got married, and I probably won't, but if I did I would not use the regular vows. I don't want her pledged to obey me. I would rather she defer to me on certain matters because she has faith in my judgement and foresight, and FOR NO OTHER REASON. If I cannot instill that faith, am I a failure as a leader ? I will leave that up to you. (of course there is always the possibility that I will find someone with better foresight and judgement, really, then the shoe would be on the other foot so to speak wouldn't it ?)

Sheesh, it's hard to stop because now why would I consider that the other foot by default instead of the first foot. I guess you are right, shoot me at sunrise. LOL

T

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/13/2009 4:49:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK this has been brought up before, and buried in posts that are on different topics, but brought up this issue are pretty much these thought. However, I think these thoughts merit their own thread so here goes. See who takes a bite, if anyone indeed grasps my concept. But given the usually high intelligence here, if the thread is a dud, it may just be that nobody has anything to say.

The thing is that so many things in the world have changed that the view of life in earlier times is quite obscured to many people, and despite relatively high intelligence, have simply not thought of certain things in certain ways.

Now my base assertion is that Men and Women cannot be thought of as equal because we are essentially different creatures. Am I a better apple or is she a better orange ? But this is a seperate issue because a relationship between the two is synbiotic. Relative standings in life, vulnerabilities and so forth must be discarded to get to the root reason for this. Hard to believe, but this should explain why I believe that Men should be in the position of authority, if they think in "manly" ways, and the following is dedicated to explaining that "declaration" as it were.

Shedding everything we know about modern life now, what is it that makes me think this way ? That Men should be in control for the most part, yet that has no bearing on any superiority or inferiority ?

In the beginning there was nature a came with that was the "invention" or you could say the "evolution" of what is now called the nuclear family. This has been normally recognized as the best environment in which to produce the best offspring, who will carry on the human race. (nice Mods huh !)

In this situation, there is no formula like Enfamil or anything so there is one constant, A recently pregnant Mother would not be the best choice to go out and plow a field. Therefore she is faced with certain set of problems, many of which are, or at least seem imminent. In the meantime the Man is out plowing the field, and since we're here, the plan seems to have worked. In plowing that field the Man decided what to plant where and when, to assure an adequate food supply for the family.

In doing so in an agrarian culture, or partly so, his results are seen months later, and he has to learn to plan ahead. How much sweet corn do we need ? or even how much sweet corn do we want ? He has to plan ahead, or become poor or perish, and that gives him his power, bestowed by nature herself. :-)

Meantime she has to meet immediate needs, and his are among them. Thus he is dependant upon her, without her life would be quite a bit harder, so she is no less than him in any stretch of the imagination.

Over time of course she doesn't get all that physuically strong, but with all that plowing because there was also no John Deere deisel tractor and attachments to do the work, Men got physically stronger than Women and this was reinforced by who got to do what chores in years past as well. It is a matter of conditionig on at least two levels and went on for many generations.

In an ideal relationship her input would be highly regarded, but I can envision things like the Man saying some like "Sorr'rry but we caannot do that because ....." because he thinks ahead. In other cases her ideas are made to happen with his full cooperation and support. Of course, two heads are better than one and nothing I have stated says anything to the contrary.

That is why I would not want a Woman Pesident, and I actually avoid working for Women. It is not a matter oif inferiority, it is a matter of a different thought process, ingrained by nature of centuries.

The reason I believe that many do not see it this way is because times have changed and these differences are bluurry to say the least, but I think what is happening is that those Men who think in a manly way are getting scarce. It seems that everyone needs an immediate soution, and do not seek lasting solutions. They think of the here and now not the future.

Does that not seem so ?

I state now that I fully admit that especially in a community such as this (CM) these roles are frequently reversed, shaded or interpolated, at the very least as far as gender is concerned. Well that is simply another facet of Mother nature along with the passage of time. But I hypothesize that these traits still exist, at least among the "normals". To a much lesser degree than in the past, but still there.

Now bear in mind before you light the flamethrowers, that in no way do I imply male superiority. To prefer a male in a position of power in this case means that he berlongs ther. I have asserted more than once that a leader is actually a servant if he is a true leader. The responsibility to ones who are led is heavy, when it is accepted and discharged in the proper way. Society has exhalted them, and we can't seem to find a true leader anymore, but I think it was different in the past. If that Man of the past planted the wrong crops, or they didn't grow for whatever reason, that fell on his shoulders.

Was he greatly more instrumental in assuring the future for his families very survival ? I think not, he was one component of two who shared that responsibility. What his autority came from was not his fist nor his strength, it came from his mind. Or rather the respect for his mind, in that the authority granted to him was granted willingly by those he led, into prosperity or death. To which was directly due to his decisions.

So in closing, the main thing I am trying to express is that society has changed so much since those days that many, despite high intelligence may not be able to see the picture from this perspective. That's why I bought it up. I'd like to treat it as seperate issue, how Men and Women adapted over the years and why this and why that, not discussing salary discrepancies.

Enough for now, I have to drag my knuckles over to the fridge and grab me some grub, damn Woman didn't cook up anything, oh wait, there is none. LOL

T


Nice concept.

(They still got all the pussy).

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RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/14/2009 11:43:35 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Lookie, I guess we'll have to forgive the loooomg quote with only a few word comment after it, but that is an interesting point.

How does sex drive fit into all this ? If Woman did run from Man in primitive times, was it because she wanted to excite him or because she wanted to mate with the faster runner ? And who was actually chasing whom ?

For discussion purposes assume everyone is of age. What about the farm boy chopping wood with no shirt and the farm girl nextdoor sitting on the fence all prettied up ? Who is doing the looking ? I say both, but the methodology of getting was vastly different. I realize that this was a western movie venue generalization, but it was true in some parts of the world.

Is/was sex drive something like a secret weapon for Women that is so ubiquitous that we are largely unaware of it's existence, like the atmosphere ? Was the charm of a Woman what actually tamed the wild beast called Man ? He could easily rape, pillage and plunder, just taking what he wants, but he wanted something more ?

As it has been pointed out, my original assertion was based on a limited model. I would have to maybe call it the old west and agrarian society in the pre-industrial age, chiefly in the US and parts of Europe. What the rest of the world was doing at the time was beyond it's scope. However if we again stir the pot with other societies' ways, we come to the Moslems (most of whom are Semites) and Orientals, where we find a much more severe degree of male superiority, at least in the past. The Moslems seem to hold on to these notions quite fiercely, but I am not so sure about the Orientals.

If the Men in these societies actually had the willpower to say no to their sexual drive, the Woman's secret weapon is disolved. But then, alot of Women in China for example do bring home the bacon. I don't care who you are, it is pretty hard to boss around someone who is providing support. So why does it continue ?

As I have stated somewhere else, Women in this society did not achieve suffrage by waiting by the mailbox until they recieved a letter telling them that they could now vote. They took to the streets and burned bras and all that. Why has this not happened in the Moslem sphere of influence ? Is the method of control that much more effective, or is it something else ? In some societies Women were considered chattel, when and where was the reverse true ?

Just what was a dowry ? OK I know what a dowry is, but how did such a thing come about ? How did the Woman's marriage vow become "to love, honor and obey" ? It is probably Biblical in nature, which means this ideology has existed for centuries. And how does the Catholic church maintain these archaic views in the light of the advent of Christianity ?

Thanks ALOT for stirring the pot Lookie, even if it was inadvertent. Now I must stop because I think I am running low on question marks ! :-)

T

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Man/Woman equality from a different perspective - 3/15/2009 10:21:19 PM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		I cannot see the original premise as evidence of 'manly thinking.'
More accurately it is backward, regressive thinking and thankfully it is indeed becoming scarce. Basing your core outlook upon what amounts to The Flintstones is hardly sound and I am despite my patent rampant manliness, delighted to distance myself from it. Keep the theories coming T, it's always fascinating to witness the braying of the dinosaurs.

_____________________________

Hitman for the Subby Mafia

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 100
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