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Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 4:09:54 AM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

Okay, so here's my first topic on this site. Since I'm fairly new to this in comparison to so many on here I'd like to hear from as many as possible on what they believe to be the defining differences between slave and/or submissive. I find that some use them interchangably and yet others clearly thrive on the distinctions. I'm here to learn so fire away!

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

Post #: 1

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 4:37:15 AM

ReluctantDom

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/24/2006
Status: offline

Welcome to the lifestyle. You'll get as many different opinions as replies. For me a submissive is someone who wants to have an agreement with their Dominant about the nature of their relationship, while a slave wants and accepts a relationship imposed by the Dominant. Some subs make the transition into slavery but many are are unwilling or unsuited even if its a lifestyle they desire. I agree with you that the nature of many of the slave/Owner relationships described here is confusing but like most aspects of humanity they cover a broad spectrum.

< Message edited by ReluctantDom -- 3/25/2006 4:38:41 AM >

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 2

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 4:38:06 AM

PhoenixLM

Posts: 79
Joined: 5/12/2005
From: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Status: offline

Hello Ma'am C,

I am not certain I should really answer here as I am not a "Mistress", however I have been a slave though I no longer identify with being a slave at present.

In my Mistress' house it is pretty simple slaves adopt the limits of ther owners foresaking limits which are thiers independent of the owner. They have one right and that is to beg release, they do not own property or have an income that is not under the direct or indirect control of the owner.

Submissive people (myself) maintain limits, rights and own proerty indeprndent of my Mistress' direct control, and in rare cases indirect control.

Many of my limits are life limits not play, an example you may access my computer but you may not change the settings or load programs that I do not want on it. Slaves have no choice in this as the slave's computer is now under the direct control of my Mistress.

However my Mistress' adopted a few very simple "Laws" for her house that you might be intrested in.

1 slave: you will never lie
2 slave: what happens at Ds Haven stays at Ds Haven
3 Owner: will never ask you to do anything that is illegal
4 Owner: will never ask you to do anything that will mentally or physically harm you.

_____________________________

Phoenix
House Ds Haven
http://dshaven.com

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 3

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:28:25 AM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

Thank you ReluctantDom for your response. I truly crave/yearn to grow and learn in this lifestyle and I want to ensure that I have a clear understanding of at least the main stream of thought on what appear to be varying labels. However, from what I'm hearing so far maybe these two particular labels are not so varied. They are obviously distinct and definitely suit two different purposes.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to ReluctantDom)

Post #: 4

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:31:25 AM

PenelopePitstop

Posts: 254
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

So what are your own interpretations of slave and sub? Don't be shy :) Because at the end of the day its what YOU think that counts here.

_____________________________

Wickedness is a myth created by good people to account for the curious attractiveness of others ~ Oscar Wilde

"You had me at Goodbye"

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 5

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:42:21 AM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

Thanks phoenix! Always willing to here it from the horses mouth!...lol Your viewpoint is much appreciated. I also have very similar rules to your Domme's with a couple of additional rules that are in effect as soon as any sub walks through My door. Hopefully, soon, I'll be able to put them into play but at this point I'm still in the interview phase of my search.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to PhoenixLM)

Post #: 6

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:42:28 AM

jinxySUBslave

Posts: 1
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline

Thank you for asking this question. I was wondering myself, as i also am new to this. I get very confussed as to what is expected of me.

(in reply to PenelopePitstop)

Post #: 7

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:46:35 AM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

Penelope,

Truth be told I was quite confused until I had a conversation with My best friend introduced Me to this site. I felt that a slave was there to serve you only when you needed and in whatever way you needed. Consequently I believed that a sub was yours to own fully and had no say in whatever you chose for him. I'm finding that not to be the case. Am I correct in saying that?

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to PenelopePitstop)

Post #: 8

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 7:54:35 AM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

Being in the lifestyle for 12 years, here's what I have observed: A submissive has a "real" or vanilla life separate and distinct from BDSM and D/s. A submissive may have a Mistress whom he serves and/or plays with regularly, or he may only play with who is available, or he may play with a particular Mistress regularly but not belong or be collared by that Mistress. Generally the interaction is limited to particular boundaries set up. The sub may or may not have a spouse and family who may or may not know about his sub activities, and the Mistress generally does not have any say about the sub's vanilla life, but only those BDSM aspects where they come together with common interest.

For a slave, those distinctions between BDSM/lifestyle and "real" life do not exist. The slave belongs to and lives with (or has the ultimate goal of living with) his Mistress. Every aspect of his daily life, from his family and friends, to his career (or none), to how he dresses (or not) and what leg he puts his pants on first, may be dictated by his Mistress, at least to some degree, depending on the Mistress' style (myself, I'm what is called a micro-manager; there is no detail too small to escape my control). He gives over entire control of and responsibility for his life into the hands of his Mistress.

This being said, however, every Mistress and sub and slave are different, and the interaction may be more, or less, than I have outlined above. But generally speaking, this is how I perceive the difference between sub and slave. YMMV.

It takes something special to be able to be a slave. There are many, many more submissives than there are slaves. Many call themselves "slave" without the slightest idea of what being such entails. When they find out, they run with their tails between their legs. It is not "scening" 24/7, and you know a self-styled "slave" is a sub (or a player!) when he starts telling you how "hot" he thinks 24/7 is. Please! Gimmeabreak! Not that I have anything against subs... some of my best friends are subs <laugh> but I'm looking for a slave, which is sooooooo hard to find <sigh>

< Message edited by LadyMorgynn -- 3/25/2006 7:55:47 AM >

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 9

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 9:37:38 AM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

Wow! You've said more that a mouthful for sure LadyMorgynn. However, I can state that thus far the blurred lines of sub/slave seem to be something that have many in a quandry for sure. Thus far my experience has been that although submissives say they are will to give you complete control they have their desired depth of control which may be very different from what you envisioned. I usually test control in very subtle and simple ways. Will he make it is business to fulfill on simple requests that I've made in exactly the way I've requested. Granted there are those things that come up in life but if in the first few interactions they've already had reason why they couldn't complete a request in the way it was first presented then it becomes clear that they are not truly as willing as they said. I am starting to believe that what I want more and more is a slave and not a submissive too. So, the search continues. Thank you for your enlightening post.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 10

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 12:38:57 PM

PenelopePitstop

Posts: 254
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Contesaluv

Penelope,

Truth be told I was quite confused until I had a conversation with My best friend introduced Me to this site. I felt that a slave was there to serve you only when you needed and in whatever way you needed. Consequently I believed that a sub was yours to own fully and had no say in whatever you chose for him. I'm finding that not to be the case. Am I correct in saying that?

You see, initially I thought it was all the opposite way round! There's been a couple of threads about this, hopefully some lovely person will dig them up. There quite literally is no single answer to this. People associate the words as they want to. So I can only give you my interpretation: in my view, which is ONLY my view, and as a result of the limited amount I have seen a nd learned, I think a slave gives herself fully over to serve (think history), it seems to be a slightly more definined actual role whereas I would say Submissive is more a descriptor for a tendency to submit. And that is just one of the zillions of opinions out there.

At the end of the day, these words will have more meaning when there are two of you - the nature of the relationship will decide which is the most appropriate term, it may be that you choose something else entirely!

I take the point of view that these labels prevalent in the subculture are only intended as guides. Some people love them because they give a feel of structure (professionalism?) to the whole exercise - words that are just 'right'. Neither approach is wrong.

_____________________________

Wickedness is a myth created by good people to account for the curious attractiveness of others ~ Oscar Wilde

"You had me at Goodbye"

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 11

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 1:18:35 PM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

To REALLY take it down to the basics... slaves live the lifestyle. subs take it out and play with it when they want.

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to PenelopePitstop)

Post #: 12

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 1:35:05 PM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

Also (since I seem to be on a roll here), a slave does not come with a "laundry list" of requirements. I get all kinds of emails from self-styled "slaves" who are willing to do anything I please as long as they are: kept naked. kept in chains. made to sleep in a dog house and eat dog food from a dog bowl. forced bi. forced to cross dress. beaten with a flogger with fish hooks. forced to wear a French maid uniform. forced to give me oral. pissed on. made to walk on a leash in public. fucked with a strap-on. be used as a sex toy by all my friends. kept in a straight jacket and gagged.

Take your pick, I've got more :(

Come on, these guys need a clue. This isn't slavery, hell, it isn't even submission! It's freakin' fantasy and they should call a phone sex service.

Damn wankers <grumble grumble grumble>

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 13

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 1:48:31 PM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

I believe that there are as many definitions and distinctions of the terms submissive and slave as there are definitions and distinctions of the lifestyle. Lifestyle, in and of itself, is a misnomer. There is no single lifestyle that everyone who practices any form of bondage, domination, submission, sadism or masochism follows. We all take from it what we wish and what is suitable to us. That being said, I have found that the following list of definitions, for which I will post the link, best describes submissiveness.

The Nine Degrees Of Submission

The outright non-submissive masochist or kinky sensualist
Not into servitude, humiliation or giving up of control; just pain and/or spiced-up sensuality, on the masochist's own terms for the masochist's own pleasure (ie: being turned on solely or mainly by one's own bodily sensations, rather than being turned on by being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism).
Pseudo-submissive non-slave
Not into even playing "slave", but into other "submissive" role-playing, e.g.: schoolteacher scenes, infantilism, "forced" transvestism. Usually into humiliation, but NOT into servitude, even in play. Dictates the scene to a large degree.
Pseudo-submissive PLAY slave
Likes to play at being slave. Likes to *feel* subservient; may in some cases like to *feel* that one is being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism; and may even really serve the dominant in some ways, but only on the "slave's" own terms. Dictates the scene to a large degree; often fetishistic (e.g. foot worshippers).
True submissive non-slave
Really gives up control (though only temporarily and within agreed upon limits), but gets his/her main satisfaction from aspects of submission *other than* serving or being used by the dominant. Usually turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up of responsibility. Doesn't dictate the scene except in very general terms, but still seeks mainly her/his own *direct* pleasure (rather than getting one's pleasure mainly from pleasing the dominant).
True submissive PLAY slave
Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets his/her main satisfaction from serving and being used by the dominant - but only for FUN purposes, usually erotic. (May or may not be into pain, but if so, is turned on by pain *indirectly*, ie: enjoys being the objects of one's partner's sadism, on which the submissive places few requirements or restrictions.)
Uncommitted short-term but more-than-play semi-slave
Really gives up control (though usually within limits); wants to serve and be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non-erotic as well as fun/ erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the mood. May even act as a full-time slave for, say, several days at a time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed upon several days). May or may not have a long-term relationship with one's Mistress/Master, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over when he or she will serve.
Part-time consensual but REAL slave
Has ongoing commitment to an owner/slave relationship, and regards oneself as the Mistress'/Master's "property" at all times. Wants to obey and please her/him in all aspects of life - practical/non-erotic as well as fun/erotic. Devotes most of one's time to other commitments (eg: job) but the Mistress/Master has first pick of the slave's free time.
Full-time live-in consensual slave
Within no more than a few broad limits/requirements, the slave regards herself/ himself as existing solely for the Mistress'/Master's use, pleasure and well- being. The slave in turn expects to be regarded as a prized possession. Not much different from the situation of the traditional housewife, except that within the S/M world the slave's position is more likely to be fully consensual, especially if the slave is male (since men certainly aren't socially pressured into this kind of lifestyle). Within the S/M world, a full-time "slave" arrangement is entered into with an explicit awareness of the magnitude of power that is being given up, and hence is usually entered into much more carefully, with more awareness of the possible dangers, and with much clearer and more specific agreements than usually precede the traditional marriage.
Consensual total slave with no limits
A common fantasy ideal which probably doesn't exist in real life (except in authoritarian religious cults and other situations where the "consent" is induced by brainwashing and/or social or economic pressures, and hence isn't fully consensual). A few S/M purists will insist that you aren't really a slave unless you're willing to do absolutely *anything* for your Mistress/ Master, with no limits at all. There are a few who claim to be no-limits slaves, but in all cases it would be reasonable to doubt the claim.

http://www.westom.com/leather/nine_degrees_of_submission.htm

That being said, I also must point out that it is my belief that unless owned, no one is a slave and that it is possible for any submissive (notice I said submissive and not bottom), to grow into slavery.

feastie

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 14

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 2:07:49 PM

SuspiciousSub

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/13/2005
Status: offline

wow you sure picked a great question here, and i for one have my opinions, from what i have seen, heard and experienced, and basically from what i see, a slave is a doormat, not allowed to have a brain or think for themselves or have an opinion, where as a submissive on the other hand, though he/she may bow down to his/her Master/Mistress, they still have a mind and thoughts and when their Master/Mistress is not around then they have control of their own lives and make their own decisions, the love and loyalty from a submissive is no lesser than that of a slave, but we make decisions and have a say in our lives, personally i believe a slave is someone that has lost strength of character and just can't be bothered with lifes battles and trials and tribulations, so hands it all over to someone else to deal with instead.
but as i have said that is my personal opinion and being a submissive i have the right to it lol
smiles
suss

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 15

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 2:10:49 PM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

To REALLY take it down to the basics... slaves live the lifestyle. subs take it out and play with it when they want.

This is one of the best quotes I have ever seen!!

I just wanted to get in here and say I totally agree with what LadyMorgynn said.. she is on the money! Thank you for making my day.

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 16

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 2:19:09 PM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

a slave is a doormat, not allowed to have a brain or think for themselves or have an opinion,

I don't know how you came to that conclusion but our slave, twicehappy.. and I'm sure she'll post here too... is one of the most intelligent people I know, she is highly opinionated and well educated. She thinks quite well on her own.

quote:

personally i believe a slave is someone that has lost strength of character and just can't be bothered with lifes battles and trials and tribulations, so hands it all over to someone else to deal with instead.

Again... I don't know where you are meeting these types but maybe you should hang our elsewhere. I've known quite a few slaves and not one of them even comes close to your description. If you are here mainly to start something, I get the feeling you're gonna get your way hon, welcome to the boards and the world of intelligent, free thinking, independent and highly opinionated people, yes, that includes slaves. Have fun now, ok?

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to SuspiciousSub)

Post #: 17

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 2:21:53 PM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

This is wonderful! I'd heard of it, but hadn't ever run across the actual text before.

Sign me up for #7-9 <blissful sigh>

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie
I believe that there are as many definitions and distinctions of the terms submissive and slave as there are definitions and distinctions of the lifestyle. Lifestyle, in and of itself, is a misnomer. There is no single lifestyle that everyone who practices any form of bondage, domination, submission, sadism or masochism follows. We all take from it what we wish and what is suitable to us. That being said, I have found that the following list of definitions, for which I will post the link, best describes submissiveness.

The Nine Degrees Of Submission

I'm not so sure I agree with the second half of the following statement, however. I think it takes a certain type of person... I don't know if it's ego, or personality, or what... but slavery is *not* suited for everyone, even submissives. To truly give up all control over and responsibility for all aspects your life, into the hands of another, no matter how adored and trusted, is just not possible for many. And so it should be. Everyone is different, and I'd rather see someone be completely fulfilled as a submissive (or even a bottom!), than try to be a slave and be absolutely miserable, or even fail, because that's just not how or who they're cut out to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie
That being said, I also must point out that it is my belief that unless owned, no one is a slave and that it is possible for any submissive (notice I said submissive and not bottom), to grow into slavery.

feastie

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 18

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 2:31:58 PM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

Good heavens, who have you been hanging out with!? My dear, I know a lot of slaves (from knowing their Domme's, mostly) and NONE of them are what you describe! That's not a slave, hon, that's someone who has low self-esteem and is using BDSM to validate their own IMHO, anyway... which others may disagree with, and that's okay too.

Let me add that, as a Domme seeking a 24/7 slave, I would not even BEGIN to consider a "slave" who had no thoughts, feelings, opinions, emotions, no sense of ego or self-worth. I mean... geez, what's to value in their submission??? I can get a doormat for under $10 at Wal-Mart, and it'd be a lot less trouble, too. I expect... no, I REQUIRE my slave to have those things, and to be able, what's more, to express those feelings and thoughts and so forth. In fact, I'll *value* his opinion, as an intelligent, thinking human being. I consider having someone to talk to and discuss things and yes, even ask advice of, as one of the "perks" of ownership. Doesn't mean I'll take his advice even if I ask for it <laugh>

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspiciousSub
wow you sure picked a great question here, and i for one have my opinions, from what i have seen, heard and experienced, and basically from what i see, a slave is a doormat, not allowed to have a brain or think for themselves or have an opinion, where as a submissive on the other hand, though he/she may bow down to his/her Master/Mistress, they still have a mind and thoughts and when their Master/Mistress is not around then they have control of their own lives and make their own decisions, the love and loyalty from a submissive is no lesser than that of a slave, but we make decisions and have a say in our lives, personally i believe a slave is someone that has lost strength of character and just can't be bothered with lifes battles and trials and tribulations, so hands it all over to someone else to deal with instead.
but as i have said that is my personal opinion and being a submissive i have the right to it lol
smiles
suss

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to SuspiciousSub)

Post #: 19

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 3:12:29 PM

ShadowsLap

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

To REALLY take it down to the basics... slaves live the lifestyle. subs take it out and play with it when they want.

I understand this sentiment - but I don't agree with it.

I have been both slave and submissive. They are different labels and will mean something different for each person they can be applied to. For me personally, the difference is not so much in the control given up to the Dom/me as it is in how I feel toward the Dom/me/Master/Mistress I serve. My relationship with the Dom/me couple I serve now is VERY different than the one I shared with my Master.

MV/ML and I share a relationship based on friendship wherein we have agreed that I am not owned, but submissive at their whim. That doesn't change the deeply-seated affection we share outside our "scenes". We are close, very good friends and have an incredible amount of trust built between us as a result. It is that trust and affection which allows me to slip into "submission" when MV or ML utters the word, "Come". It is a level of respect that provides the discretion they require and binds us - not as just friends - but as lifestyle friends.

On the otherhand, the relationship I shared with Master was on a completely different plane of respect altogether. We were not 24/7; but it did not matter whether I was in His presence or not, He was Master and I was slave. When He called my name, it was very natural to decline my head and answer. Master inspired great humility in me and for that, I was willing to give whatever He asked. I have never been a doormat - Master appreciated the warrior in me who could challenge him intellectually, but respectfully - because I knew His place ... and mine. In my heart, I submit my entire being to Master and was rewarded repeatedly for it.

So, yes, there are as many different types of slaves/subs as there are people who love this lifestyle and submit. The only real answer is which one applies to your OWN particular relationship and you are the only one who can answer that question. Be safe, take care and have fun!

ShadowsLap

< Message edited by ShadowsLap -- 3/25/2006 3:19:11 PM >

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 20

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