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RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 3:37:57 PM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

Wow! LadyMorgynn, have you been reading through my nine pages of submissions because that's mostly what I've been getting. For three weeks now it's been pathetic. Some didn't have this approach but they were few and far between. It's made the task of selecting quite a chore but I press on because I'm intent on getting what I want and nothing else. Whats more interesting is that they shouldn't want to settle either but being that they're desperate because of the numbers, well enough said on that. It's good to hear these things though because although I did know that this was definitely not only happening to me, it's still good to hear from those others who it's been happening too.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 21

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 5:05:12 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

This is how I personally differentiate them - only my definitions and only those who serve me would be expected to agree.

Submissive is a personality type; the submissive is focused on bending to another's will and requires directions or orders so that they have something to bend to. I believe this is really a time-limited dynamic because adults need to be able to make their own decisions and even those most into micromanaging probably need breaks.

Slave is a position, or a job or a role; the slave is focused on making the owner's life better and therefore must be capable of independent thought, action, and motivation in order to enhance their owner's life. I believe this can be a 24/7 relationship model because it is the skeleton of the dynamic and different levels of control or power can be involved at any given time.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 22

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 5:08:18 PM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

Yeah, no joke. What makes it worse is the ones who are experienced enough to find out just what you want and then say all the right words. But if you persevere, and dig deeper in your conversations with him, eventually his motivations will come to light.... because generally, you know, in the end they will NOT be willing to settle, and you'll find them trying to manipulate you into giving them what they're really after. The thing is, not to rush into anything. I mean, you wouldn't rush into marriage with a guy you'd just met, right? It's one thing to have a plaything for Saturday nights at the local M&G; but if it's a full-time, live-in sub you're looking for, or even a devoted LTR submissive, you want a match. That's why I've been here over 6 months and still haven't chosen <sigh> And even so, with all the care taking, there's no saying I'm going to get it right the first time. I'm just trying to shorten the odds in my favor :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Contesaluv

Wow! LadyMorgynn, have you been reading through my nine pages of submissions because that's mostly what I've been getting. For three weeks now it's been pathetic. Some didn't have this approach but they were few and far between. It's made the task of selecting quite a chore but I press on because I'm intent on getting what I want and nothing else. Whats more interesting is that they shouldn't want to settle either but being that they're desperate because of the numbers, well enough said on that. It's good to hear these things though because although I did know that this was definitely not only happening to me, it's still good to hear from those others who it's been happening too.

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 23

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 5:13:58 PM

james66

Posts: 28
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline

a slave belongs.....is owned now, today and forever.......

a sub, just then and whenever

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 24

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:03:27 PM

namasteguardian

Posts: 20
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline

Several people have come close, and I think ShadowsLap has come closest. Bottom line is that Master/Dom/Domme, sub/slave are all just terms. What they really mean is determined by what a particular Master/Dom, sub/slave agree they mean. The key to a successful relationship within the scene is the same for any successful relationship. Communication.

So many people in BDSM moan about all the phoneys and fakes out there. And while that isn't untrue, a great deal of the time, it is more a breakdown of communication, where the Master has his/her concept of what Master/slave means and the sub or slave has a different concept. Both come away angry and frustrated that their partner didn't live up to their expectations. But neither was right and neither was wrong, they just didn't ever talk to each other to determine if how they each perceived the relationship was compatible.

If you are a Master who believes a slave gives up total control, fine. Express that opinion and as long as the prospective slave agrees that is also what they want, the relationship is likely to work. If the prospective slave thinks differently, time to move on.

It seems to me that too many people are too timid to talk to each other. But it is the single most critical element to a successful and rewarding relationship for both parties. The answer is simple: talk, talk some more, and keep talking. If one isn't sure what it is they want, it's okay to admit that, too. As long as the lines of communication remain open, the relationship can continue to grow and deepen.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

"Life wasn't meant to be easy, but it was meant to be fun".

(in reply to james66)

Post #: 25

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 6:08:25 PM

vield

Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Over the course of many years "in the scene" I have come to understand that the only labels that are correctly applied are those which a person puts on their own forehead. Lots of luck trying to understand what each word used means to each person using it.
The rules, rituals, degree of control, depth of relationship, likes, limits, and all other factors can be identical for three people, one of whom claims to be a submissive, one of whom claims to be a slave, and one of whom claims to be a bottom.
A person observing all three relationships from the outside can easily say what their opinion of the relationships are, but this will not have value to those discussed.
For me I consider a top/bottom to be a play partner I have not got an intense relationship with, and I consider dominant/submissiive to define a much more intense and closer relationship than the first. I consider the deepest and most intense sorts of relationships to be owner/slave ones. For you, I can only say "your mileage may vary'! Good luck on your journey. vield

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 26

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/25/2006 7:25:10 PM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

This grasshopper has certainly learned much from the resulting posts on this topic.

I've learned that the meaning is defined by the partners involved once they come to a mutual understanding and/or agreement as to how the labels will be used in their relationship. That is only arrived at by open and continuous communication. Something I strive to achieve in all my relationships anyway. Not perfect, but I do strive for that.

I've learned that to some, there are varying distinctions so that there is no set and true definition across the board that could truly considered a standard one.

I've learned that what matters is defining what the relationship will do for both parties, especially when a LTR is desired by both.

These are concepts that I already had in mind but it's good to get confirmation and know that I'm on the right track. Thank you all and special thanks to Sir Dominic and vield.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to vield)

Post #: 27

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 6:40:24 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Normally I do not even read, much less respond to ask a Mistress. But my Mistress (Shifted Jewel) knew the post here by Suspicioussub would rile my ire to the point of ..... Ok, lets just say before she read it to me she turned to my Master (Scooter Trash) and asked him to hold me down while she read it to me.

To begin with i can only define myself. I cut this from another thread entitled defining yourself (from my own post).

I call myself a slave. I am a slave. I have surrendered all that I am, all control, to my Master, ScooterTrash and my Mistress, ShiftedJewel.

How am i defining "slave" then?

This is from the definition of "slave" in the second edition of the Oxford English Dictionary: "One who is the property of, and entirely subject to another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights.” I include those who choose to become as such described in this definition. When i say "slave", i mean literal slave, defined in this way. This is just the everyday definition of "slave" that everyone grows up with, and it doesn't include the role play slaves you sometimes meet elsewhere in BDSM.

quote:

from what i have seen, heard and experienced, and basically from what i see, a slave is a doormat

A doormat? Where are you meeting these slaves? At the Home Depot?

I am owned by the House PhoenixRisen. The last thing i am here is a doormat. I am a greatly loved, very respected, vitally important, fully contributing member of this family. My owners care for me exceptionally well. I am clothed, fed, housed, equally with all other family members. They do not “walk” on me, but rather expect and receive truly loving service from a slave’s heart. They ask for, listen to and give careful consideration to my opinions and thoughts. Naturally all final decisions rest with them, they are in control, as it should be, as I asked for and accepted it would be when I took their collar.

quote:

not allowed to have a brain or think for themselves or have an opinion

No brain? Well let’s see, I was a hospice nurse for 18 years. During that time I received many awards for the quality of my care, taught CNA’s to work in the field and supervised other nurses in their duties. I have an IQ of 156. When I retired from this due to an injury I began building custom Harley‘s, something I picked up from my previous Master who is now deceased. During this time I raised my children, ran a farm, and rebuilt an 1802 stone farm house on my own. I have also competed for the last 22 years as an off road motorcycle racer.
Now I am, aside from normal day to day household upkeep, helping to rebuild the beautiful old Victorian home Master and Mistress own. Gee, imagine what I could have accomplished if I only possessed a sufficient cerebellum.
Most owners value and prefer an intelligent slave.

Have an opinion, After you read this go check out the threads I’ve started. I definitely have an opinion. And, given my owners permission or asked, voice it rather succinctly.

quote:

personally i believe a slave is someone that has lost strength of character

Lost strength of character? I given all I just wrote I feel it is fairly safe to state I have never lost my strength of character. Bear in mind I was in a collar while I accomplished all that I have and continue to accomplish.
I wonder if you can conceptualize the kind of strength it takes to be a slave.

quote:

just can't be bothered with lifes battles and trials and tribulations, so hands it all over to someone else to deal with instead

Serving them, loving them provides me with the opportunity to know them, connect with them, see the flames of their passion, experience the intensity of their minds.
MY owners protect and guide me; they feed my heart and soul. Being at their feet provides me with a deeper intimacy. A tremendous heart baring, fully exposed, mind, body, and soul, unique type of love. Every detail of who and what I am lies naked before them, and they celebrate and love this, this whole of me, as I am. Being held safe, secure, fast in their collar frees me to grow, prosper and flower as an individual and a slave.
These are the reasons I handed control over to them. Not because I cannot fight or deal with life’s battles.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to SuspiciousSub)

Post #: 28

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 6:47:59 AM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

twicehappy, what can I say, other than to applaud your post as truly worthy of a standing ovation.

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 29

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 6:48:12 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Slave is a position, or a job or a role; the slave is focused on making the owner's life better and therefore must be capable of independent thought, action, and motivation in order to enhance their owner's life. I believe this can be a 24/7 relationship model because it is the skeleton of the dynamic and different levels of control or power can be involved at any given time.

Very well put !

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 30

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 6:53:03 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

twicehappy, what can I say, other than to applaud your post as truly worthy of a standing ovation.

blushes...., smiles..., bows. Thank you LadyMorgynn

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to LadyMorgynn)

Post #: 31

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 7:07:12 AM

Badkitty0810

Posts: 223
Joined: 2/18/2006
From: NH
Status: offline

Beautifully said twicehappy.

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 32

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 8:03:47 AM

Contesaluv

Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

I am in awe of the power in your servitude and slavery Twicehappy. Also, in the strength of your character and what you have accomplished in this life. When it is done no one will be able to say in truth that you did not fulfill on living and giving, that's for sure. I can only hope to find one such as you!

I'm glad that your Master and Mistress allowed you to post this most powerful rebuttal.

_____________________________

Mistress C.

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
William Shakespeare
------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

(in reply to Badkitty0810)

Post #: 33

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 8:23:59 AM

GoddessAlexia

Posts: 37
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline

I agree with a reply of ReluctantDom, nevertheless sub or slave if it's 24/7 it is hell of the job and a big comitment for both Top and Bottom.

_____________________________

Goddess Alexia
www.mistressalexia.com
www.theplatinumcage.com

(in reply to ShadowsLap)

Post #: 34

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 8:25:25 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

She really is special and very passionate about her role in life. She lacks neither intelligence nor personality and would be (and has in the past) quite capable of being independent and successful. Being capable is one thing, doing what you want to do and be, is another. A lot of her aggravation comes from those who try to downplay the devotion of a slave, she honestly does see the differentiation between sub and slave and to be honest, knowing her has clearly defined it for me.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 35

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/26/2006 6:00:15 PM

lushusboobs

Posts: 83
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

The idea of a slave isn't really that appealing to me since I like to have a sort of equitable relationship with someone at least part of the time. I also like people to have a distinctly defined identity and not be enmeshed with them psychologically. It's a little scary to me that someone would let their own identity be so subsumed by another. I've met and talked with a slave but I'm afraid I just didn't understand and it was a little scary to me that someone would give me that much responsibility.
Lushus

(in reply to ShadowsLap)

Post #: 36

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/27/2006 7:42:54 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

I find that some use them interchangably and yet others clearly thrive on the distinctions. I'm here to learn so fire away!

Well...Here's a new distinction : ''Self-styled connoisseuer of dominant women''

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/27/2006 7:43:35 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Contesaluv)

Post #: 37

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/27/2006 7:58:55 AM

namasteguardian

Posts: 20
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline

Mistress C, you are definitely on the right track. It was my pleasure if I helped confirm your beliefs.

twicehappy, I add my applause to your comments. It has been my experience that the best subs are women (or men) who are intelligent, strong and with a high level of confidence in themselves. It takes a strong person to truly submit. They can do it because they know who they are, and are comfortable with who they are. That a lot of so called masters can't or won't understand that tells me a great deal about how much self-confidence they have in themselves.

That being said, SuspciousSub is not completely in the wrong either. There are men and women who want to be slaves because they just want someone else to take care of them. I've seen this type plenty of times, too. This is hardly unique to the alt world though. We've all seen pretty people who have traded a wedding ring for a free ride in life. In any world, it often does not make for a healthy relationship.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

"Life wasn't meant to be easy, but it was meant to be fun".

(in reply to lushusboobs)

Post #: 38

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/27/2006 8:25:50 AM

jezzabelle

Posts: 391
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: Southeastern, MA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspiciousSub

wow you sure picked a great question here, and i for one have my opinions, from what i have seen, heard and experienced, and basically from what i see, a slave is a doormat, not allowed to have a brain or think for themselves or have an opinion, where as a submissive on the other hand, though he/she may bow down to his/her Master/Mistress, they still have a mind and thoughts and when their Master/Mistress is not around then they have control of their own lives and make their own decisions, the love and loyalty from a submissive is no lesser than that of a slave, but we make decisions and have a say in our lives, personally i believe a slave is someone that has lost strength of character and just can't be bothered with lifes battles and trials and tribulations, so hands it all over to someone else to deal with instead.
but as i have said that is my personal opinion and being a submissive i have the right to it lol
smiles
suss

WOW, okay, where do you know these slaves from that you have formulated such an off base opinion of what a slave really is? Are these r/l slaves that you've actually met with, talked to, observed with their Owners, or are they online only slaves or ones that just wish to live out the fantasy? If you're basing your opinion on what you see online, then stop. I'm a r/l slave, and I have friends that are r/l slaves, and I can assure you that not one of us are doormats, nor are we lacking in brains or opinions, and we most certainly can think for ourselves and are in fact encouraged to do so. I did not hand over all of life's battles to my Master, nor have I ever met a slave who has. In fact, most slaves that I know, myself included, have more to balance being a slave, because not only do we still have to deal with the daily trials and tribulations of our lives and our families (if we have them) but we have the added responsibility of serving our Owners and making sure they are first priority while still accomplishing everything else. Yes, some slaves may be micromanaged by their owners, but that doesn't mean that all decisions and problems are taken away. It just means that the slave has given over that control to their owner, because it was what they wanted also, because they enjoy that degree of control over their lives, not because they couldn't make decisions on their own. Could you imagine how exhausting that would be for a Master/Mistress if they had to do and think of everything for their slave? What the hell would they want a slave for then? How would that help them and enrich their lives?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lushusboobs

I also like people to have a distinctly defined identity and not be enmeshed with them psychologically. It's a little scary to me that someone would let their own identity be so subsumed by another.

I have my own identity, as do all my friends that are slaves. Being a slave does not mean losing one's identity.

(in reply to SuspiciousSub)

Post #: 39

RE: Slave or Sub. What's the distinction? - 3/27/2006 10:54:28 PM

lushusboobs

Posts: 83
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

As a slave, jezzabelle, do you find that every area of your life is controlled by another? When does slavery stop being slavery and start being codependancy? Where are the lines drawn. For example, when you wake up, do you have to have someone tell you what clothes to wear, or are you allowed to choose your own? Do you need to have someone tell you to take personal care of yourself or do you do that for yourself? Can you take the initiative to do chores without someone ordering it? Left on your own would you do anyting constructive?

I'm just curious, because I want to know exactly how much control is too much control and when the slave/Mistress or Master relationship just becomes codependency and an enmeshed existence. It doesn't seem terribly healthy to me. Although I like a submissive who knows that he is submissive, I still enjoy a little bit of SAM. And I like someone who is intelligent and thinks independently of myself and who has their own opinions. I guess my fear is that in taking on someone who wants to be a slave that there is too much expectation of total control. Being with a submissive seems easy to me in comparison. Being Mistress to a slave seems like much harder work.

Lushus

(in reply to jezzabelle)

Post #: 40

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