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Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/10/2006 5:37:42 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		How do you distiguish the two?
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!  
Peace, Kevin

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.
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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 8:12:13 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		A sadist generally is not an abuser. Granted there are some sadists who abuse their bottoms/subs/slaves but these generally get a reputation for doing so and eventually find themselves without play partners.

A sadist usually respects the limits of the masochist, is usually careful not to do any permanent physical or mental damage (after all if you break your toys how can you play with them again).

A sadist is tormenting a partner who has given their consent to the "torment" inflicted on them. Often the masochist involved will have begged the sadist to inflict the agreed upon pain.

A sadist is usually fulfilling the needs of the masochist as well as his/her own.

After all the cruelest sadist in the world when the masochist said beat me said no.

An abuser, be it of their husband, wife, child, etc... is doing so out of anger and often maims or breaks bones, often leaves permanent mental or physical scars.

An abuser respects no limits as i am sure many an abused husband or wife did not include in their wedding vows a prior agreement such as "you can slap me but not break my jaw".

An abuser is filling no needs except his/her own to lash out in anger and inflict harm on someone generally unable to defend themselves well.

How many abusers of their husband/wife do you hear about yearly that eventually kill the one they were abusing?

Now how many sadists do you hear about yearly who have killed their masochist?

All of this being said I have known and respected many a sadist who outside of a scene helps little old ladies across the street and rescue animals and small children.

I have also known abusers; the only real use I can think of for an abuser is fertilizer.


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Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 8:32:02 AM   
wild1cfl


Posts: 567
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

How do you distiguish the two?
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!  



With an abuser, his wife is not asking to be slapped or hit, she is not asking to be humiliated. She just wants to get away from this situation and make him stop.
With a Sadist, he enjoys the infliction of pain and humiliation, but it is with someone who want this done to them. The Masochist is consenting to be slapped, humiliated and spanked and the Sadist is more than willing to do so.
Yes a Sadist can be an abuser and visa versa, but they do not have to be.

(in reply to fastlane)
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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 8:34:28 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think we can make any generalizations about the actions of sadists or abusers (after all, some sadists desire and do things that make some abusers look like child's play).  I happen to think actual sadism is incompatible with actual masochism.  A sadist wants the other person to feel PAIN, not pleasure.  A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Fluffy sadists however, who want the other person to enjoy the pain, works perfect with a masochist.

To me the difference is the motivation and source- is the person doing the action out of a sense of security, ethics?  Or are they doing it out of insecurity and fear? 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_130087/mpage_1/key_sadist%252Cabuse/tm.htm#130087
What is a sadist?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_308357/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#308357
Training and abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_255676/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#255676
Defining Domination v Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_224182/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#224182
Ms/Ds is it a license to abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_177013/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#177013
Discipline or abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_142096/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#142096
Abuse vs discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131849/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#131849
Abuse disguised as dominance

http://www.collarchat.com/m_123045/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#123045
Overuse of "Abuse"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_47262/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#47262
Physical Abuse of a slave

http://www.collarchat.com/m_41029/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#41029
SM vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1874/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#1874
BDSM versus Abuse



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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 8:49:22 AM   
someuniquename


Posts: 16
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Consent by the person being slapped around probably makes the difference between abuse and a sadist quenching his or her thirst for inflicting pain on a willing masochist.

When you say “you slap your bitch around”, you do mean that she is into that and accepts it willingly right?

I’d like to experienced being slapped around by a Domme too but if someone were to simply walk up to me and slap me on the street or anywhere outside of a BDSM context, they better run!

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 9:17:21 AM   
plantlady64


Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Kevin,
To me a sadist is someone who consensually inflicts pain on those who want that. In my experience most try to prevent any permanent harm or injury. It's a mutual journey a sadist makes with a bottom with great care and concern used in the process.
Abusive people are not trying to cause consensual pain, but rather hits in anger and tries to intentionally harm someone. There is no consent in abuse. It's something that's inflicted on you, not something you agree to participate in.
Also most sadists will stop if you use a safe word. Most abusers only stop when they choose to with no concern for those they abuse.
Suzanne


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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 9:46:17 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


Posts: 412
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I am a sadist, and I have wrestled with it all of my life. I enjoy inflicting pain upon others whether or not they enjoy receiving it. I have tried denying this, went through a stage where I felt that it was a moral fault and sought to repair it that way, and eventually came to accept it as part of what I was. Acceptance allowed me to maintain control over it.
 
Were I to not face my beast, it would exert control over me at inopportune moments and I would likely find myself in jail or prison because of it. Only through accepting it as a part of me am I able to keep a grip upon it, feeding it when necessary and allowing it to surface only in controlled, desirable situations. It isn't always easy, but it is better than the alternative. If you allow your nature to control you rather than controlling your nature, you become less than human.
 
 

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 10:08:54 AM   
someuniquename


Posts: 16
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Agreed!  Like anything else, when living in a society, we need to keep ourselves in check.  I like driving fast but I can’t always do that so I try to behave.  Speeding through a school zone and killing a kid doesn’t seem like something I would want to experience just for the 5 second thrill of driving fast.  Well, brutalizing someone against their will may be a fun 5 second thrill to a sadist but the consequences probably aren’t worth it.

Thank god for us subs who are willing to provide you Dommes/Doms with a tool for releasing your sadistic impulses eh! 

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 10:40:15 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

How do you distiguish the two?
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!
Peace, Kevin


For me the difference is on two levels.

The first is mutual consent. Not assumed, not physically or mentally or spiritually or economically coerced but actually discussed and received consent.

The second is the motivation. Abuse is done to harm the other person or to make one feel better by belittling another. Kink, in my opinion and how I would define it, is done for mutual benefit and betterment; both people get positives from it.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to fastlane)
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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 10:49:38 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

I am a sadist, and I have wrestled with it all of my life. I enjoy inflicting pain upon others whether or not they enjoy receiving it. I have tried denying this, went through a stage where I felt that it was a moral fault and sought to repair it that way, and eventually came to accept it as part of what I was. Acceptance allowed me to maintain control over it.

Were I to not face my beast, it would exert control over me at inopportune moments and I would likely find myself in jail or prison because of it. Only through accepting it as a part of me am I able to keep a grip upon it, feeding it when necessary and allowing it to surface only in controlled, desirable situations. It isn't always easy, but it is better than the alternative. If you allow your nature to control you rather than controlling your nature, you become less than human.




These are very brave words, BrutalAntipathy, and I suspect it is true for many folks in the top or sadist role in BDSM.

I personally can relate.

I agree that part of BDSM is learning from our darker desires and seeing them as part of us. Being a good human being is learning to control those desires, as you say, and respect others and the society we live in. There are also self-serving reasons for watching our darker desires such as limited partners and the availablity of future partners not to mention our own freedoms from prison or legal problems.

I find when I deny myself these darker needs they can play out in more intense ways. I find it better, personally, to play them out in smaller and controlled with with others and to exercise some others in my writing or my mind.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 11:27:00 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?


Context, context, context.






< Message edited by amayos -- 4/11/2006 11:29:16 AM >

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 11:27:19 AM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

I am a sadist, and I have wrestled with it all of my life. I enjoy inflicting pain upon others whether or not they enjoy receiving it. I have tried denying this, went through a stage where I felt that it was a moral fault and sought to repair it that way, and eventually came to accept it as part of what I was. Acceptance allowed me to maintain control over it.
 
Were I to not face my beast, it would exert control over me at inopportune moments and I would likely find myself in jail or prison because of it. Only through accepting it as a part of me am I able to keep a grip upon it, feeding it when necessary and allowing it to surface only in controlled, desirable situations. It isn't always easy, but it is better than the alternative. If you allow your nature to control you rather than controlling your nature, you become less than human.
 
 


I think you said this well.  Sadists don't care whether or not a person consents.  Sadists don't need to keep their sadism confined within the mutual consent of BDSM.  An abuser IS often a sadist. 

However, as you have discovered, once you have recognized this trait and try to channel it appropriately, it can become a part of you from which others actually derive pleasure.  Sadism without consent is abuse.  Sadism with consent is part of BDSM.


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 4:13:22 PM   
theGrimReaper


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

How do you distiguish the two?
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!
Peace, Kevin


For me the difference is on two levels.

The first is mutual consent. Not assumed, not physically or mentally or spiritually or economically coerced but actually discussed and received consent.

The second is the motivation. Abuse is done to harm the other person or to make one feel better by belittling another. Kink, in my opinion and how I would define it, is done for mutual benefit and betterment; both people get positives from it.
this pretty much echos my own feeling onthe matter, anything of this nature should be for teh benifit of both parties. also i am extremly familiar witht he subject of abuse having not only see it happen but having seen it happen in my own family. so i tand to clearly define where the line is for myself and will never cross it with any sub thats willing to take 'disipline' from me.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 4:15:53 PM   
theGrimReaper


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?


Context, context, context.





yes a sadist may enjoy doing harm to a subject but as long as teh subject want it its fine as long as its to their mutual benefit, when its not then its abuse

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 4:25:01 PM   
pandora56


Posts: 6
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline 		This is an interesting thread to someone new to the forums.  i have noticed that our lifestyle is definitely a haven for abusers although most are eventually exposed in one way or another. 
 
The real difference is headspace.  Actions don't mean anything because to me the most vicious form of abuse is emotional abuse.  There are many people i know who have had D/s experiences in early days that were emotional abuse masquerading as D/s.  It all depends on where the participants are coming from.  If the sadist is coming from a place of anger and buried or unresolved feelings and fears, that's abuse.  If the masochist is only staying in the relationship because they are terrified to leave and have so little self esteem that they don't think they can do any better, that's an abuse victim.  Believe me the two find each other unerringly. 
 
If the head space comes from mutual love and respect, and the motivation is to create a deeply intimate and profound union, then that is the true beauty of D/s

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 5:00:16 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		When all else fails, think safe, sane and consensual.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 5:15:27 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		I've experienced both and there is a HUGE difference between an abuser and a sadist involved in BDSM.

First, there's safe, sane, consensual. I never consented to the abuses that I had to live with. Being coerced into staying in an abusive relationship is indicative of abuse, not consent.

Second, an abuser, IMO, is someone who puts their emotions onto and into another person. It's not just about doing something that makes them feel good, though it does. It's about dumping their bad feelings into someone else so *that* person feels yucky. A sadist will do something that makes them feel good, but it's not to make the other person feel awful. It's, in my experience, something to help the other person feel good too.

Third, there is a big difference between being domineering and being dominant. (Not all sadists are dominant; not all dominants are sadists, I know.) A dominant cares for the people who look to them for direction and guidance. A domineering person forces people to do what they want them to do with complete disregard for what would be best for everyone. BIG difference.

I do not plan on being abused again. But I'm looking forward to my next experience with a sadist/dominant.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 5:23:00 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

How do you distiguish the two?
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!  
Peace, Kevin

The factor which delineates sadist from abuser is control.  A sadist who defines him/herself within the context of BDSM is in charge of their own emotions and actions.  An abusive person attempts to exert control of another because they feel powerless. 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 5:37:16 PM   
TxBadMan


Posts: 198
Joined: 4/7/2006
From: Moody, Texas
Status: offline 		I believe it all comes down to how YOU identify with abuse versus sadism. I know many people who would view my relationship with Tikk as nothing more than abusive; and yet, we identify it as something different. Yes, there is mutual consent for any and all activities that happen; yet I have been known to push her when I think she's ready to try something new.
The difference is being able to stop when her fear overcomes her. Crossing that line, it becomes abuse.
Just my opinion and our experience though.

_____________________________

Chris



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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 6:04:01 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		For D/S relationships consent is the boundary between abuse and non-abuse. In M/s relationships consent gets to be blurry, coercion may well be involved.  I would say taking the slave anywhere that is not in their nature is abuse, "making" the slave expand a part of who they already are is not abuse. For instance, if my slave has as part of their nature a need to serve I may by means that are upfront and by means that are devious work with her to get her to a place where she  wants to serve more than she already does. This would not be abuse. She may never  consent to having her need for service expanded (and may not realize for some time that it is happening) , I may do it because it pleases me. She will in the end thank me for taking her to this new place if it is something that was in her nature all along, if I was right. If I take her someplace that she hates, that does not fulfill her in some way, then I will know that I was wrong about who she is and I  have abused her.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 4/11/2006 6:06:24 PM >

(in reply to catize)
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