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RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 4:24:40 PM   
SthrnCom4t


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Does the sub not help the dominant to grow in her dominance, too?  (Come to think of it, I've rarely seen that discussed, here.)


P, I completely agree with this statement. I believe partners create 'safe environments' for each other, and one of  the by-products of that environment, is the evolution of the individuals, as well as the dynamic between them.


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Sthrn
Honorably served by OttersSwim

'The sign of a developed mind is one in which two opposing ideas can coexist' - Oscar Wilde.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 5:22:25 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Nice OP Otter. The following is really thought provoking.

quote:

And so you have a guy who feels feelings of submission, fights his socialization, and maybe comes to a place where he is ready to explore this in real time. What I have seen on these forums is that they will often come at it first with a "this far and no farther" attitude.


While I have known I am submissive since my youth, I still feel strongly about certain things. I want to provide, I want to protect, so in many ways I am the normal hetero male. Yet I want to submit within a relationship. Note quite submissive inside and vanilla on the outside, as frankly Im past caring what people think of me. But the basic male need to provide and protect still remains strong. So much so I once told someone to "Shut up babe its my job to look after you"  ( It didnt go down well but the sentiment was appreciated later )

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 9:18:13 PM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		Whereas for me, submission has nothing to do with being male or female and has everything to do with faith. (Of course, what I am doing is bound up in my faith, so this makes sense.)


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 9:19:54 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline 		From my side, the issue of facing off with western culture's notions of masculinity is something I've had to do on two fronts - both through being gay, and through being submissive, neither of which are fully culturally sanctioned expressions of love and sexuality.

In these areas, I've noticed with both in gay guys of all stripes and submissive straight guys there's often a sense of some feeling the need to prove that they're still masculine by reinforcing cultural stereotypes of masculinity with statements like "I may be [ fill in the blank ], but I can still win in a bar room fight!" Or a need to link their orientation towards military camaraderie ( as I've read some gay guys ) or towards some historic notion of chivalry towards women ( as in the case of many straight male submissives ). These all can be true in some individual cases, but I believe the inherent need to associate one's orientation with some pre-existing positive cultural archetype of masculinity is just a form of male insecurity. Being your lady's coffee table for a while doesn't need to be related to putting your coat in a puddle so a woman can cross ( and did anyone really do that, anyway? ) in order for it to be okay and for you to remain "a real man". The thought that something can just be what two consenting adults want; that it doesn't need a precedent or a reason to be, is a concept that I feel is still foreign to many people who might benefit from it.


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 10:22:07 PM   
SomethingCatchy


Posts: 796
Joined: 7/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KurtAllen

I agree with Pact, dont look for another to give you or even assist you in acquireing the quality of manhood you aspiret to.
Its entirely up you.
Years ago I was told you will become all you want to be when you become all you already are and no one can help you or do it for you. The man telling me that said it daily to me in seven languages, later in life I spoke read and wrote in all those languages and that was part of his lession.


This is exactly what I thought of when I read this post.

My next reaction is - if he feels that way, he can do a lot of things himself to nurture his own submissive tendencies. There are books, videos, professionals, hell even the internet can aid a person in self awareness, self improvement, and developing skills that will help you get to where you want to be in life. If he's not willing to put in the hard work to get where he wants to be, then why should she be willing to put in the hard work to brow beat him into doing what he should at least be in the process of working on in the first place?

I think what it boils down to is the conflict, and a lack of understanding himself. If he doesn't understand himself, how is a woman going to change that?


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 10:50:50 PM   
LPslittleclip


Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline 		western culture is very conflicting for males. as a child males can touch ans hold another in a platonic manner. as a adult males are not allowed to do more than a quick touch. as a child we see/read many such examples as we grow. the unlearning of these and the embrace of self that allows one to be comfortable in acepting submission and serving another without regard of what others may care.

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LadyPact

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/25/2010 11:52:21 PM   
SthrnCom4t


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think Otters said it was anyone else's job to give another manhood, nor that anyone other than self could do the hard work or self analysis leading to evolution.  I read it as offering insight into where some individuals might be coming from. It didn't seem to me an excuse to deflect responsibility. Indeed, we are each responsible to meet our own needs.

I would propose that by interacting and having direct experience, the lessons are much more powerful than reading about the concepts in a book or watching a video. I am the queen of self-help books, so I'm not knocking their usefulness, but direct feedback with an emotionally intelligent person is invaluable.

I've often found it useful to interact with others by trying to understand their motives, (which I believe was the intent of the OP) and as such, I don't take most actions/reactions as a personal affront. It allows me to be more like the pole, when others around me are being swept around like tether balls.Usually, realizing how little we actually do influence/control other people, allows us to disconnect from feeling poorly in light of their behavior.

Is Dominance really about control, or is it about Inspiration/Motivation?

SomethingCatchy, I think you are absolutely right that someone who is not self-motivated, isn't going to be changed by someone else. However, if a submissive reads Otters' post, and it turns on a light bulb of, 'hey, I can relate to that. Maybe that's the 'unrealized' wall I've been hitting internally," it might prove to be useful. Likewise, a Woman who recognizes it, and offers it as feedback, might give the impression of being a wise woman worthy of granting 'inspirational access.'

Just my two cents :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

quote:

ORIGINAL: KurtAllen

I agree with Pact, dont look for another to give you or even assist you in acquireing the quality of manhood you aspiret to.
Its entirely up you.
Years ago I was told you will become all you want to be when you become all you already are and no one can help you or do it for you. The man telling me that said it daily to me in seven languages, later in life I spoke read and wrote in all those languages and that was part of his lession.


This is exactly what I thought of when I read this post.

My next reaction is - if he feels that way, he can do a lot of things himself to nurture his own submissive tendencies. There are books, videos, professionals, hell even the internet can aid a person in self awareness, self improvement, and developing skills that will help you get to where you want to be in life. If he's not willing to put in the hard work to get where he wants to be, then why should she be willing to put in the hard work to brow beat him into doing what he should at least be in the process of working on in the first place?

I think what it boils down to is the conflict, and a lack of understanding himself. If he doesn't understand himself, how is a woman going to change that?



_____________________________

Sthrn
Honorably served by OttersSwim

'The sign of a developed mind is one in which two opposing ideas can coexist' - Oscar Wilde.

(in reply to SomethingCatchy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/26/2010 12:40:01 AM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Boys are most often still raised to stuff their emotions, not cry, to be tough and frankly often to be somewhat dismissive of women and to be a bit selfish - my opinion.

Yessssss, and I see where it becomes an unconscious habit that the male might not be aware of doing.

quote:

That concept of what it means to be -male- is a high high hurdle to get over - guys are bucking every ingrained social belief that they have been taught about what it means to "be a guy". Being a male is so much tied into being in control - at the base of one's self.

And so you have a guy who feels feelings of submission, fights his socialization, and maybe comes to a place where he is ready to explore this in real time. What I have seen on these forums is that they will often come at it first with a "this far and no farther" attitude.

I am so glad you brought up this subject, as I am not a male and just cannot understand some things without a submissive male explaining it to me.   

quote:

This does not feel like submission to a lot of Dommes and so they go away disappointed...when in fact, the guy had made significant progress in rethinking his socialization and is sort of in the "proof of concept stage". Whereas She is looking for someone who has made the journey lock stock and barrel...I don't think you find too many of those guys out there who will go all the way on their own.  Not saying that it cannot happen, but it is a lot to get through on one's own.

I almost shot a relationship in the arse because I didn't understand enough about the male psyche and the social programming they go through.  Other submissives were easier than the one I am interested in right now because there was a large enough age difference, or because some other Domme had broken them in first.  There might have been other reasons but I am tired of thinking things to death and need a break from it.  Yes, I did doubt him at times because he had gone along with what society expected of him and had been Dom in a past marriage.

quote:

I am wondering if the Ladies who are searching have thought of this, and either agree or disagree with it, or have additional thoughts.

Not until I became interested in this particular man, no.  I took some things for granted that I probably shouldn't have.  I gave up on some men that I probably shouldn't have, and no, I did not attack their submissiveness in any way.  I walked away instead.  It's a relief to see it right up here in letters, I don't know why but it is. 
 
This one just knocked my sox off the moment I knew he had been using his body to block the sun from my face, protecting me from a small ray of sunshine peeking through the trees that would have given my face a sunburn.  He was so hard to read until I started to understand how much programming I have to break through.  I shouldn't even be typing right now, as I am cranking up into a frenzy and wanting to shove my guy against a wall and bite him or something.
 
I'll go on to read what everyone else in this thread has written before going offline to cool down with a movie or two. 

(in reply to OttersSwim)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/26/2010 9:10:46 AM   
KurtAllen


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/9/2010
Status: offline 		I'm not so sure, Kurt.  There's the view that when two (or more) people get together, each helps the other become more than he or she was before.  Or, even, more than any one of these could have become as separate individuals.  Some say that's the main point of getting together in the first place.
Peon, I beleive you have offered topic for another thread that could be of extreem interest to many, "The purpose of and reason for human beings gathering". Although I will not argue the point of each man being responsible first unto himself and I remain strongly convinced the challenges confronting the man and defining manhood as each man indevisually internalizes it are not the product of otheres opinions, collective thought or found in the eyes of societies acceptance. Neither do I beleive another can inspire me to greatness, I am either great or I am not but if I am I have yet to find it and if it is there it will come from within.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/26/2010 10:24:41 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t

I don't think Otters said it was anyone else's job to give another manhood, nor that anyone other than self could do the hard work or self analysis leading to evolution.  I read it as offering insight into where some individuals might be coming from. It didn't seem to me an excuse to deflect responsibility. Indeed, we are each responsible to meet our own needs.

I would propose that by interacting and having direct experience, the lessons are much more powerful than reading about the concepts in a book or watching a video. I am the queen of self-help books, so I'm not knocking their usefulness, but direct feedback with an emotionally intelligent person is invaluable.

I've often found it useful to interact with others by trying to understand their motives, (which I believe was the intent of the OP) and as such, I don't take most actions/reactions as a personal affront. It allows me to be more like the pole, when others around me are being swept around like tether balls.Usually, realizing how little we actually do influence/control other people, allows us to disconnect from feeling poorly in light of their behavior.

Is Dominance really about control, or is it about Inspiration/Motivation?

SomethingCatchy, I think you are absolutely right that someone who is not self-motivated, isn't going to be changed by someone else. However, if a submissive reads Otters' post, and it turns on a light bulb of, 'hey, I can relate to that. Maybe that's the 'unrealized' wall I've been hitting internally," it might prove to be useful. Likewise, a Woman who recognizes it, and offers it as feedback, might give the impression of being a wise woman worthy of granting 'inspirational access.'

Just my two cents :)


The highlighted above is what prompted My previous response.  While I am Dominant, I am not everyone's Dominant.

Of course, in My own dynamic, it would be My hope that there would be growth.  This is the case whether the person who has submitted to My authority is doing this as his first experience with D/s, in which he is first learning about his submission, or he has prior experience in a power dynamic before.  I've never been one to expect complete surrender from day one.  The kind of trust and faith that an individual needs for that to happen isn't necessarily automatic.  My preference has always been to earn that over time.  I find it very similar to the concept of loving someone.  In most cases, we are not "in love" with someone that we first meet, but if we do love them, that love can deepen and strengthen every day as time goes on.  Such as it can be with submission.

However, this is a much greater investment.  Not something that is going to happen just because two people run across each other with the opposing labels.  There are some exceptions to this, of course.  I'm sure every Dominant woman out there who happens to be active in their kink community has run across that 'new' submissive male that she takes under her wing, solely because there was something about him that she liked on a friendship basis.  She may not be actively interested in taking him for her own, but does see the potential in him, so she steps into that role.

At the same time, it is worth recognizing that this is not every 'new' submissive's experience.  Why this happens from one to another depends on a number of variables.  It could be chemistry, personality, or various reasons why one person finds that people are more willing to work with one person more than another.  With this, both scenarios are entirely possible, which is why neither one or the other should be the one expected.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/26/2010 10:53:48 PM   
SomethingCatchy


Posts: 796
Joined: 7/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

SomethingCatchy, I think you are absolutely right


Finally, someone acknowledges my absolute rightness. I feel this one going to my head.




_____________________________

I believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns

Everyone is gay for Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/28/2010 12:47:34 PM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		Society makes the distinction between dominant and submissive. Men are supposet to be dominant because society says so. You are right about the fact that boys are told to suck it up, don't show emotions, be tough, don't cry, take it like a man. I was brought up that way also.
Submissive me are protrayed as easy targets, meek, wimps, losers, etc. However, I am here to tell you that is not always the case. I am as macho as the next male, but I will submit to a woman if I desire.
I am 63 years old, have had a heart attack, but still fight in full contact marshall arts. You probably would not want to pick a fight with me if you are a man. However, if you are a woman, who wants to control me and I want to be controlled by you...I am as submissive as they come.
Submissive men do not have to be wimps or losers...I really dislike that depiction of men. And the women who promote that are not much better...just my two cents worth.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/28/2010 3:23:24 PM   
WhipStich81


Posts: 66
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		this is called being a bitch not submissive

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/28/2010 4:16:22 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipStich81

this is called being a bitch not submissive


You seem to be posting crap all over the forums. If you feel so hard done by, do you really feel posting as you are will somehow make you look more attractive to prospective dominants ? I strongly suggest you grow up and get over yourself.

(in reply to WhipStich81)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/28/2010 4:32:25 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipStich81

this is called being a bitch not submissive

I would hardly call Otters a bitch.  Having met him, I can absolutely attest that he is quite devoted to his Lady.  Something that certain 'submissives' should take as a damn good example.  I'd be shocked as hell if he ever pulled some of the behavior I've seen on these boards as of late.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/28/2010 5:17:03 PM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I have really embraced my submissiveness to a dominant woman.  I wear the locked chain around my neck 24/7 proudly.  I serve openly.  I think it shows strength, not weakness.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/28/2010 5:19:36 PM   
SthrnCom4t


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipStich81

this is called being a bitch not submissive


I do believe your stupidity has just earned you the ignore/block/delete key. Congratulations, you deserve all three. You can pick up your prize at the third door down on the left. Goodbye!

< Message edited by SthrnCom4t -- 7/28/2010 5:21:53 PM >

_____________________________

Sthrn
Honorably served by OttersSwim

'The sign of a developed mind is one in which two opposing ideas can coexist' - Oscar Wilde.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/29/2010 3:08:42 AM   
LadyDelilahDeb


Posts: 52
Joined: 10/29/2009
Status: offline 		Fast reply:

Good topic. Nice to see some thought going into it.

As a domina, I look for people that are compatible. Because I'm straight, the sexual relationships are with men, go figure. (I top women occasionally, but as endorphin play only.) The "male" cues that the OP speaks of are every bit as pervasively present in modern culture as they have been for the past 50 years. (I remember 50 years, so that's what I'll speak to.)

The *degree* of those socially inculcated patterns and how strongly they take (or not) in a given gene-male or gene-female — 'cause, believe me, we gene-females get just as much of that damnable social programming as the gene-males. Taking the reins may be our dominant natures, but it's not the social programming. And stoicism in females is every bit as encouraged as in males. It's just not expected as strongly, 'cause "women are the weaker sex."

It's a tough row to hoe, no question, whether you're a girlie guy or just given to submissive behaviors.

D



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/29/2010 10:21:30 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I have really embraced my submissiveness to a dominant woman.  I wear the locked chain around my neck 24/7 proudly.  I serve openly.  I think it shows strength, not weakness.


Have you had to replace your chain yet?

One of the boys and I were talking about him sweating through his collar. The salt and sweat are eating away at the links and he's gone through two (on his third one) in a year. Ma'am's thinking about getting something similar for me but we don't want to get anything that's gonna have to replaced so quickly.

boi


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Thoughts on Male Submission - 7/29/2010 10:33:12 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		I know this is OT but would love to discuss this sometime.. as the year anniversary approaches for me and my boy, I'm at a loss as to find a lock for her that she doesn't wear the finish off.. I do not want brass.. . .but plain silver colored.. she's on her second lock for the year and its already discolored and leaving a black spot on her skin... I did get a lovely titanium chain so its fine... the locks are not.  I know Slave Kal gave me a link to his lock, but I think its just too big... I need HELP finding something.. I'd like stainless steel but I'd like it to be smaller than most of them come in stainless...


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I have really embraced my submissiveness to a dominant woman.  I wear the locked chain around my neck 24/7 proudly.  I serve openly.  I think it shows strength, not weakness.


Have you had to replace your chain yet?

One of the boys and I were talking about him sweating through his collar. The salt and sweat are eating away at the links and he's gone through two (on his third one) in a year. Ma'am's thinking about getting something similar for me but we don't want to get anything that's gonna have to replaced so quickly.

boi



_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

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Profile   Post #: 40
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