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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:09:06 AM

LoreBook

Posts: 257
Joined: 2/22/2012
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You said no and he did it anyway, that's all that's needed to constitute rape. You were raped, that it was gentle or even pleasant doesn't change anything, you were raped.

What you do about it from here is up to you.

< Message edited by LoreBook -- 3/27/2012 9:12:14 AM >

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:12:48 AM

strangedesire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I think you should concentrate on getting out the message that drinking with a man late at night alone at his house is a bad idea if you are not there for sex

Wouldn't it be better to spread the message that raping women isn't ok, even if they come to your house late at night for drinks? I do know what you're saying here, and I'm not trying to start a fight (because Boston-area folks aren't fighting about this enough already, right?) but I really don't think this kind of thing is helpful. Focusing on how the OP could have maybe prevented this assault kind of implies that it is partly her fault - which implies that it partly isn't the fault of the guy who raped her. I have a lot of male friends, but have never met anyone who magically lost the ability to understand the word "no" because he was hoping to get laid that night.

< Message edited by strangedesire -- 3/27/2012 9:13:39 AM >

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:30:48 AM

kalikshama

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I don't think a woman wearing a miniskirt is "asking" to be raped. But I do think if she's wearing a miniskirt, while drinking, late at night, with an ex lover with whom she knows she has no defenses and told she missed, who has boundary issues, she's made some really bad choices.

Nope, not giving him 100% blame here - and neither does she.

(Note - the miniskirt is a metaphor - no idea what the OP was wearing other than she took the effort and "looked good.")

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:32:59 AM

strangedesire

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/23/2008
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OK, pinksparkles, actual advice for you:

I recommend seeking out a rape/sexual assault crisis service in your area. Your local BDSM organizations may have information on which services are kink-friendly in your area. (I would google for you myself, but California is a big state, and you'll want one closer to you.) Crisis centers can usually help you find therapy. You make also with to consult the Kink-Aware Professionals Directory.

Going to the police can be pretty traumatic, and your odds of getting a conviction are extremely low. Some people feel better making sure that there is a complaint on the record, even if the case never goes to trial. Other people would rather not put themselves through it and risk being outed, etc. Some people will tell you that it is your responsibility to go to the police to make sure that he doesn't hurt anyone else. They mean well, but probably don't understand the system terribly well, and are forgetting that your rapist is the only one responsible for his own actions. There are also people who will tell you that you cannot possibly have been raped, because you didn't go to the police immediately afterward. I like to find out who these people are early, because it means that I never have to talk to them again.

On the community: the more public you get about this, the more likely you are to be accused of "starting drama". I really don't have any good advice here - find support in your friends, but don't expect the nebulous "community as a whole" to be on your side. Some people care a lot, some people will hate anything that scares nubile young girls away from their parties, and there's a huge spectrum in between.

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:36:40 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

because Boston-area folks aren't fighting about this enough already, right?

I have no first-hand knowledge of "the predator's" behavior so am staying out of it on FL. Do we have a thread on it here? I'd like to discuss generalities.

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:39:43 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

There are also people who will tell you that you cannot possibly have been raped, because you didn't go to the police immediately afterward. I like to find out who these people are early, because it means that I never have to talk to them again.

For the record, I don't believe this, but do believe not going to the police immediately will make the DA far less inclined to prosecute an already difficult case as it's quite exploitable by the defense.

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 9:51:51 AM

strangedesire

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Joined: 12/23/2008
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kalikshama, I think I'm going to try to get into "agree to disagree" territory, just because I'm not sure that arguing about this would be especially beneficial for anyone. We can't all live perfectly safe lives, and in an ideal world it should be perfectly safe to have drink at a man's house without fear of sexual assault - but we don't live in that world. Maybe some day.

quote:

not going to the police immediately will make the DA far less inclined to prosecute an already difficult case as it's quite exploitable by the defense.

I agree. I wasn't implying that you were one of the "it can't have been rape" people, but I have run into them in the wild.

quote:

I have no first-hand knowledge of "the predator's" behavior so am staying out of it on FL. Do we have a thread on it here?

I have no idea, and I don't know how much I would be able to contribute to said discussion. I was following the stuff about TS, and the general Boston Consent Working Group stuff, and the AB+ Unicorns consent discussion, and the rumormonger with the fake story about someone else entirely. I got pretty burned out on it all. I am deliberately not debating too much with you here because I just can't take it.

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:04:00 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire
There are also people who will tell you that you cannot possibly have been raped, because you didn't go to the police immediately afterward.

While I agree, it's definitely going to raise the eyebrows of law enforcement that after the incident she decided to restart a relationship with him and then waited until after they broke up to decide to report it.

I agree, she "sounds" truly traumatized and I think she needs support. She's in a no-win situation. She can't warn the community without reporting it because then it's slander. If she does report it, she and the community get investigated, which won't be enjoyable for anyone and it will most likely lead to her being labeled the trouble maker.

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:05:36 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksparkles12
I have a question..

You are only 21, young and relatively inexperienced.. learn to see the signs of manipulation and lies, imo, most people will tell you what benefits them.. not you.. Try to think about that and their motivations for telling you things.. and dont ignore red flags, learn to trust your gut instincts, dont let someone talk you into something you dont want to do.. Try not to fall into the trap of repeating history.. You will get better at spotting the bs with more experience as you get older and wiser.. and that will make you stronger, more confident in your decisions and life..

I hope seeing a counsellor helps you deal with this..

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:12:49 AM

pinksparkles12

Posts: 15
Joined: 3/27/2012
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"I know we talked, he gave me some wine, i didn't drink much"

To make it clear , not drinking much meant drinking about 3 small sips. i was too emotional to drink and remember thinking i need to be in the right state of mind. Obviously, without drinking it didn't really help anything with my state of mind because i was so emotional.

So adding drinking to this to explain to people doesn't make sense as I wasn't even tipsy. But, thank you for your thoughts.

(in reply to DominantEngineer)

Post #: 30

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:23:09 AM

pinksparkles12

Posts: 15
Joined: 3/27/2012
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To be honest, all this has even helped me. For months i was thinking i was over dramatic and there were blurry lines and that it wasn't rape, when i felt so violated and hurt...yet couldn't articulate it for some reason. Just hard for me to know a man i loved would do this to me, i never wanted to believe it. Makes me feel sick to my stomach and really hate myself, i have A LOT of guilt. Not to mention the guilt of someone forcing me to have sex, him saying sorry about things, me trying to think it was okay it was happening trying to make logic out of it, and me feeling so down and defenseless i begged to go back with the person who really hurt me. It makes no sense to me, i am embarrassed.

Reading all of this is really helping - i will go to the counselor and see what he/she says and go from there. i didn't know if i needed professional help, but seeing this all typed out really made me see how real it was and how holding it back and not dealing with it is just really hurting me.

I know you are all over the internet, but thank you so much for your time - you have no idea how much support this has given me and you have sparked a bit of strength to actually go seek professional help now I know i'm not being stupid about this .

< Message edited by pinksparkles12 -- 3/27/2012 10:25:26 AM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:25:40 AM

AthenaSurrenders

Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
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- fast reply -

This was so sad to read.

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been covered but wanted to give you my sympathies. It sounds like this was an abusive relationship even before the rape (and yes, no question, it was rape).

Good for you for seeking counseling, and consider seeking counseling for the emotional abuse that came before the rape as well.

Should you decide to report it, then good for you, but don't feel that you have to if you can't face it. Telling a police officer the intimate details of your life isn't easy, though I assure you they have heard it all before and won't bat an eyelid that there has been some BDSM contact between you and this man. It is true that the conviction rate for rape, particularly in this kind of context where there will be little or no physical evidence, is very low. He should still be questioned though, which will let him know that you are taking a stand for yourself, and it will go on record which might help if there are any future complaints. It also shouldn't be held against you that you resumed a relationship with him - that's what often happens in cases of abuse and no police officer worth his or her salt should be unaware of that.

As for causing trouble in the community, or being seen as a trouble causer? Who cares. If this community allows a known abuser to stick around and discourages victims of rape from seeking help, this is not a community you want to be a part of. 'Grey areas' my arse- nothing grey about this one.

If you were from the UK I could send you some contact numbers but I see you are not. Look up your local rape crisis centre - they should put you in touch with a good, appropriate counselor and also get you some std testing if you want it (and I would - he clearly doesn't care for your wellbeing so I doubt he is cautious about these things).

Sorry you had to go through this. Take some time out to heal and care for yourself.

< Message edited by AthenaSurrenders -- 3/27/2012 10:36:23 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:29:12 AM

ProlificNeeds

Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
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FR~

OP: You have no real grounds for prosecution, but you need serious help. Professional help. Someone who knows how to put your self destructive, lack of self-preservation ass back together again.

Please learn to be strong again. I wish you the best.

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Post #: 33

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:49:09 AM

pinksparkles12

Posts: 15
Joined: 3/27/2012
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i know you all probably think i have a messed up life fully, but i don't. In my vanilla life i am fairly educated and accomplished for my age. I could go on and on, but that doesn't matter. i am seen that i have my whole life put together, people always come to me for advice. That's why i went into kink life, having someone there for me for once to go to for advice would be GREAT. i was looking for that person i could look up to and lean on for once in my life.

When i entered into the kink lifestyle, i met him and let myself become consumed by him, i truly trusted him and put all my heart and devotion into him ...that made me vulnerable. i didn't know how powerful vulnerability, sex, and manipulation could become. If he told me i was a bitch or selfish, i'd eventually think i was that after being told that numerous times. My feelings were constantly said to be invalid according to him. After many months of this cycle, i started to believe i was incompetent, and i noticed later that's exactly what he wanted, he gained full control of me that way. i was stupid and trusting. There was just a lot of emotional abuse and because i put my trust into him, i let it continue ... so i know that was self-harm. I however am glad i got out of it that was seriously very hard. i'm trying to learn from it, and i agree i need to talk to the counselor about everything i was put through with him, not just the rape (although that has made me have a lot more anger,and confusion. I feel a lot more hurt because the rape happened).

i know i need to get help, but i also know my vanilla life IS healthy. I just need to get help with this certain aspect to become healthy again because it is starting to sink into my vanilla life, such as becoming emotional, not trusting people as much ... just luckily i am starting to see it and will get help .

( This post was probably more just for self-justification that this will be okay, my life is not totally screwed up.. i can move on , there is hope, lol.)

< Message edited by pinksparkles12 -- 3/27/2012 10:52:15 AM >

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 10:59:43 AM

kalikshama

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I've had bad experiences including one that left me feeling like a rape victim. What I learned was to trust my gut. All the red flags were there - but I chose to ignore them.

Him being an asshole was on him. But me being an idiot was on me.

Instead of going after him, I encourage people to make smart decisions and learn to recognize and honor the warning flags.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 3/27/2012 11:03:01 AM >

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RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 11:03:15 AM

pinksparkles12

Posts: 15
Joined: 3/27/2012
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i'm not sure if i should report it, maybe if i just reported it so it would be on file that might be the right thing to do. i'll talk to a professional about that before i go down that route as many of you said to do. i'd hope i could at least have put it on file so if anyone else was brave enough to come forward about his abuse then actions might be taken.

i was scared to do it, but i'll get more information about that, it might help me heal also.

< Message edited by pinksparkles12 -- 3/27/2012 11:04:34 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 11:06:38 AM

AthenaSurrenders

Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksparkles12

i know you all probably think i have a messed up life fully, but i don't. In my vanilla life i am fairly educated and accomplished for my age. I could go on and on, but that doesn't matter. i am seen that i have my whole life put together, people always come to me for advice. That's why i went into kink life, having someone there for me for once to go to for advice would be GREAT. i was looking for that person i could look up to and lean on for once in my life.

When i entered into the kink lifestyle, i met him and let myself become consumed by him, i truly trusted him and put all my heart and devotion into him ...that made me vulnerable. i didn't know how powerful vulnerability, sex, and manipulation could become. If he told me i was a bitch or selfish, i'd eventually think i was that after being told that numerous times. My feelings were constantly said to be invalid according to him. After many months of this cycle, i started to believe i was incompetent, and i noticed later that's exactly what he wanted, he gained full control of me that way. i was stupid and trusting. There was just a lot of emotional abuse and because i put my trust into him, i let it continue ... so i know that was self-harm. I however am glad i got out of it that was seriously very hard. i'm trying to learn from it, and i agree i need to talk to the counselor about everything i was put through with him, not just the rape (although that has made me have a lot more anger,and confusion. I feel a lot more hurt because the rape happened).

i know i need to get help, but i also know my vanilla life IS healthy. I just need to get help with this certain aspect to become healthy again because it is starting to sink into my vanilla life, such as becoming emotional, not trusting people as much ... just luckily i am starting to see it and will get help .

( This post was probably more just for self-justification that this will be okay, my life is not totally screwed up.. i can move on , there is hope, lol.)

I hope I don't upset anyone by saying this but here goes... your relationship to me sounds like classic domestic abuse. Someone who deliberately undermines your self confidence, manipulates you, makes you feel that you are worthless (and not in the kinky sense that some people get off on), makes you feel that your concerns are not valid or that you aren't allowed your own opinion... that person is an abuser. Here's the thing about domestic abuse: it happens to people from all corners of life. The fact that this man mistreated you doesn't in any way invalidate your success in life. It doesn't mean that you aren't intelligent or capable or strong. It means he did a good job of exploiting your weaknesses. You were not stupid. We all make bad choices sometimes, and you were unlucky enough to be with a man who pounced on that.

The important thing is you have got yourself away from him and you are taking care of yourself and won't make the same mistakes again. It's normal to feel crappy after what you've been through, but you're absolutely right that your life is not totally screwed up. That's a healthy attitude to have.

I hope this doesn't come across as patronising because that is the exact opposite of my intention. You are doing well. You came across a scumbag but he is out of your life now. I don't think you have a messed up life, and all the suggestions of counseling aren't because we think you're messed up, but because something horrible happened to you and it's good to have a little help to make sense of it.

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Post #: 37

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 11:08:41 AM

pinksparkles12

Posts: 15
Joined: 3/27/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I've had bad experiences including one that left me feeling like a rape victim. What I learned was to trust my gut. All the red flags were there - but I chose to ignore them.

Him being an asshole was on him. But me being an idiot was on me.

Instead of going after him, I encourage people to make smart decisions and learn to recognize and honor the warning flags.

Yes, and i am doing that and trying to learn from it, i definitely won't become involved wtih someone like him again . However, i also believe in my heart, no matter how much an idiot someone is, rape should never happen.

The only thing i can learn from that night is that i need to learn to trust myself more, and that people who you might love, might still hurt you .... and to fight back more if ever in a bad situation ... and believe in yourself...and never put yourself in such a vulnerable position :/ .

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Post #: 38

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 11:17:17 AM

lthrpup

Posts: 125
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
As for causing trouble in the community, or being seen as a trouble causer? Who cares. If this community allows a known abuser to stick around and discourages victims of rape from seeking help, this is not a community you want to be a part of. 'Grey areas' my arse- nothing grey about this one.

Amen. Sometimes, people who deride drama are really deluding themselves that they are on some high road. If they eschew moral evaluations, however, they have already made one.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

Post #: 39

RE: Rape & BDSM community... - 3/27/2012 11:23:20 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksparkles12

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
I've had bad experiences including one that left me feeling like a rape victim. What I learned was to trust my gut. All the red flags were there - but I chose to ignore them.

Him being an asshole was on him. But me being an idiot was on me.

Instead of going after him, I encourage people to make smart decisions and learn to recognize and honor the warning flags.

Yes, and i am doing that and trying to learn from it, i definitely won't become involved wtih someone like him again . However, i also believe in my heart, no matter how much an idiot someone is, rape should never happen.

The only thing i can learn from that night is that i need to learn to trust myself more, and that people who you might love, might still hurt you .... and to fight back more if ever in a bad situation ... and believe in yourself...and never put yourself in such a vulnerable position :/ .

Kalikshama mentioned this book on another thread and while i have not read it yet myself (I will try finding it at the library or buy it used from half.com).. imo, it sounds like a book that can help you a lot in recognizing others lies and manipulations allowing you to be safer in the future.. That also will give you strength and confidence in yourself..

From her previous post- "Gavin DeBecker, in the book "The Gift of Fear". I CAN NOT recommend that book highly enough if one is interested in their personal safety. "

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Post #: 40

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