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RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/5/2013 10:03:29 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hang with me on this and follow the logic.

According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .

Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.

Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.

The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.

A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.


I (horridly) agreed to an abortion when I was 19....she was 15. (Sue me...she was 15 going on Marilyn Monroe....she was a gawdamn fuck machine and I was....full of testosterone).

The most horrid thing I've ever done, and the one thing in my life I regret EVERY day....

Awful stuff....conundrum....pivotal shit....man vs. woman...

Horrible....

My assumptions (now...yeah....sue me):

I think that (see above as to suing me)....a woman shouldn't have sole right.

It's his child too.

I lost a child in 1995. My (then) wife and I lost a child. I was 27 miles away...we were giving it our best...I was with a client...I got a call...."JJ....I'm at the doctors....something's wrong....". Thankfully I had one of the few cell phones in the area at the time....any charge at that time would have been appropriate. A million dollars would have been more than fair. I would have paid anything.

I never drove faster in my life. Never more consumed by hurry.....I was with my client....huuuuge contract....I think my gas pedal was in two states over.....I don't think I've ever seen a man so white as my then passenger....I'm sure the Staters would have had their way with me but....somehow they didn't find me.

If we didn't push that car faster than it was ever designed for....I'm certain Chrysler didn't know what RAM was about....

I got there...dropped off the client (thankfully his office was blocks from where I was headed and....he definitely had burned fringes...had he not opened the windows....we'd have both been fried crispy motherfuckers)....and my (then) wife was all good, stable but we spent the next 3 days at home, quiet, unconsoled, just the memory is horrifying still today.....

I can't recall a time when I was ever more in emotional pain, or, ever understood what a family goes through when a child is lost. I couldn't work. It took months before I was even remotely normal.

I remember thinking to myself years prior (when I'd heard about a couple having lost a child, knowing the chic was upset)...."what was the guy upset about?"......that day I understood.

With clarity.

Today, 18 years later, it's still horrifying.

And today, I still hate myself for what I (agreed to) 30 some years ago.

There is a soul.

It begins at birth.






< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 4/5/2013 10:06:52 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 8:32:41 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hang with me on this and follow the logic.

According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .

Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.


I suppose this would depend on how one defines the nature of one's "soul." I don't know that the soul is measurable or quantifiable, as in, you either have 1 or 0. If it's more fluidic or formless, then perhaps one can have a little bit of "soul" or a lot of "soul." Some souls might vary in intensity, some might have a lower wattage than others, but it could still conceivably qualify as having "a soul."

quote:


Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.

The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.

A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.


I would mostly agree with "A," although I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of a "soul."

Of course, the other side of this is that, if there is no ensoulment at conception, then when does it supposedly take place? Is there some point during pregnancy that the soul just magically enters the fetus, and if so, when and how does this happen?

If I operated under the assumption that the human soul does exist, then I could see how it would be more logical to assume that our life energy would most likely come from our parents which would have been transmitted at the moment of conception. Perhaps in the case of twins, it may be the result of some kind of spiritual "power surge," a kind of "soul overload," necessitating the division of the embryo into twins.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 8:40:26 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Hang with me on this and follow the logic.
According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .
Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.

I suppose this would depend on how one defines the nature of one's "soul." I don't know that the soul is measurable or quantifiable, as in, you either have 1 or 0. If it's more fluidic or formless, then perhaps one can have a little bit of "soul" or a lot of "soul." Some souls might vary in intensity, some might have a lower wattage than others, but it could still conceivably qualify as having "a soul."
quote:


Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.
The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.
A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.

I would mostly agree with "A," although I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of a "soul."
Of course, the other side of this is that, if there is no ensoulment at conception, then when does it supposedly take place? Is there some point during pregnancy that the soul just magically enters the fetus, and if so, when and how does this happen?
If I operated under the assumption that the human soul does exist, then I could see how it would be more logical to assume that our life energy would most likely come from our parents which would have been transmitted at the moment of conception. Perhaps in the case of twins, it may be the result of some kind of spiritual "power surge," a kind of "soul overload," necessitating the division of the embryo into twins.


Perhaps it at that point the heart starts beating on its own accord?


_____________________________

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(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 8:40:45 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I agree with initial hypothesis put forth by HW.

As a result, I am now in favor of hunters killing pregnant deer, bear, what-have-you females and fisherman killing pregnant dolphin, whale, and other aquatic females in order to get at the things growing in their bellies because, they're not really "baby dolphins" (etc.) until they're born.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 8:50:43 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9694K85Xc8

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 3:47:02 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"


That should read hypothetical entity. The only way theory belongs in that sentence is if you put conspiracy in front of it.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 3:52:37 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Violates the "One to a customer" rule


Maybe UllrsIshtar doesn't agree with that premise. Some people believe in possession by ghosts which would involve such a twofer.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 3:55:39 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"


That should read hypothetical entity. The only way theory belongs in that sentence is if you put conspiracy in front of it.


hypotesis is something you assume as true, theory something you belive but can't prove, so theoretical works fine to me.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 4:02:49 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I wonder how much you can get for a soul down at the recycling center. Maybe I can afford to stop saving aluminum.


They're worth $400 on ebay.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 4:53:35 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		I also do not believe in a 'soul' or at the very least we assume something inside called a soul. To the extent one wishes to give it a name and attach some meaning to it, I call it intuition. That is developed only after sufficient intelligence is developed to recognize any perspective in any awareness in one's emotional feelings and their change in any given situation that would have them change.

Until a human being is asked to emotionally react to anything it first must have the knowledge to grasp enough meaning from their surroundings and any occurrence within them, that would or even should draw out any emotional judgement. I call that emotion a spirituality that inspires a person's intuition which then is your soul or reveals the emotional assessment of a given occurrence in ones surroundings.

An infant, until well after birth and thus conception, is not emotionally equipped to make such spiritual decisions. They have yet to develop intuition and without such development, fail to have the required intelligence and enough to draw out and demonstrate any 'soul.'

That we can describe say a musician that plays with soul, means he can turn a musical phrase that often elicits a certain emotional or spiritual feeling inside the listener and thus must also derive from the musician we then often complement on how 'soulful' he played that.




(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 5:03:32 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Violates the "One to a customer" rule


Maybe UllrsIshtar doesn't agree with that premise. Some people believe in possession by ghosts which would involve such a twofer.


Nah, I'll work with that premise for the sake of the experiment. I just don't believe that its necessarily implied that an egg is already a "single customer", just because a baby after birth is.

Maybe twin eggs are multiple customers soul wise, and they split because the biology much necessarily catch up with their spiritual state.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 5:07:48 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Or maybe the soul is contained within the sperm.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 5:13:01 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Or maybe the soul is contained within the sperm.

Bloody hell, don't say that or the Catholics will doom me to hell for beating off.
OOPS, they already do.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 7:15:44 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		That would require one soul per sperm, wouldn't it? (Thus Onan's sin).
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You left of:

D. When a twin's egg is 'ensouled' it happens with 2 souls, and that is why the egg later splits into two different people.







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RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 7:21:00 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I agree with initial hypothesis put forth by HW.

As a result, I am now in favor of hunters killing pregnant deer, bear, what-have-you females and fisherman killing pregnant dolphin, whale, and other aquatic females in order to get at the things growing in their bellies because, they're not really "baby dolphins" (etc.) until they're born.

Does this mean we can move along now to how many angels will fit on the head of a pin?

K.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 7:32:18 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.



I don't even wanna ask where you came up with this "knowledge".

!. We "know" nothing about the soul
2. From where I come from, everything has a soul.
3. I've never heard of one to a customer or partial souls. There's never been much said at all about the soul.

For all we know, the soul is not "deposited" until a later stage of conception. We have no idea of knowing. It may be that the soul is not deposited until the egg splits into two and thus both get a soul. It may not be deposited until birth. One may not gain a soul until a certain age. Again, we can't prove anything and we have no way of knowing.

It could be that there certainly are shared souls. It could explain things like why some people feel such a strong connection with another person. It could explain reincarnation, it could explain twins. Who knows.

I don't think your concepts prove or disprove anything at all.

Your story is like trying to explain the nature of the universe. We don't have a clue except for what we make up in our heads or we think we "know".



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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 7:42:52 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Or maybe the soul is contained within the sperm.


Oh crap I just killed 600 million souls.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 8:34:48 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hang with me on this and follow the logic.

According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .

Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.

Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.

The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.

A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.


D. Embryo A received his soul at the time of conception and Embryo B received his soul at the time he fissioned off from Embryo A since that was when Embryo B’s body came into existence.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 8:50:35 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
hypotesis is something you assume as true, theory something you belive but can't prove, so theoretical works fine to me.



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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) - 4/6/2013 9:43:08 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hang with me on this and follow the logic.

According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .

Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.

Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.

The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.

A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.


D. Embryo A received his soul at the time of conception and Embryo B received his soul at the time he fissioned off from Embryo A since that was when Embryo B’s body came into existence.

If that is true, then ensoulment doesn't necessarily occur at the moment of conception.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 60
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